Tackling the "we need a LT" myth

[DocLawless]

Why is it ONLY one OR the other? How about Chan's offense helped make Fitz AND the OL look better than they are?

 

How about the fact that BOTH Fitz and the OL are mediocre. They can all play very well, or horribly, depending on the week. When everyone is healthy and they are complimenting each other, they play well. But when one starts to falter, the whole thing turns into a mess.

 

Both the QB and LT positions can, and eventually should be upgraded. But right now, we are in a much stronger position to upgrade the LT position and have that upgrade pay dividends. Also, given the fact that Bell is a FA, it dictates that the LT position MUST be addressed this offseason, one way or another.

 

If you are going to be a glass-is-always-half-empty, and everything is black OR white, guy... please return to BBMB. The rest of the post about "football smarts vs brains" doesnt make much sense anyways.

Ya know man I always agree with your posts. You speak truth, sense, and a rare thing called positivity around here. I hope most of these people are hoping they are wrong because all they talk about is how bad the bills are. Isnt this supposed to be a forum for bills fans? So many people on here sit here and pick out certain players on this TEAM with a 53 PERSON roster and bash them. They sit on here as if they were patriots fans and argue to the death how bad the players, management, and other fans are of the team they are SUPPOSEDLY fans of. I don't get it. Fitz isn't the best qb in the league and our o-line isn't the best either but they are our team so we should support all of them while they are playing for our team. I know everyone is sick of losing and it pisses me off too but slowly things are turning around everyone can feel it. Playoffs 2012 mark my words. Wildcard spot. Win or lose think of how great it will be to get excited for a playoff game again. Also calling pro bowl for dareus, wood,, Fitz, Fred, Stevie, and maybe levitre

[DocLawless]

You sort of proved my point though you won't see it. Fitz finished 17th in the league with a beat up offensive line that is mediocre at pass blocking when healthy. He was throwing passes to a wild cat QB, a RB and a collection of practice squad guys and rejects off the street STARTING at WR at times and it's all his fault?

 

At best with Fitz being 17th that would say there are only 16 starting caliber QBs in the league. How many of them are actually franchise? You ignore that when the team was healthy he was top 5. This IS my point.

 

People's expectations are WAY to high and they ignore the team around a QB and want to blame a single individual. This is why guys get run out of town for the next guy and the next and the next and the next.

 

Try being a supporter instead of bashing one of the guys on the team that actually has some talent and plays well when there is talent around him on both sides of the ball.

Exactly right.

 

Dammit I want to watch some football. My guess: Fitz starts out hot again. Hope we stay a bit more healthy and that Fitz's decline was, indeed, due to injuries. I love the guy, but next year is realistically his make or break season.

Yep your right,. The term earlier was he is the caretaker lol. Hes got another year to prove himself and either way in the next couple years it will be time to jump on our franchise qb when the opportunity comes along.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Let me preface by saying Hello to all, I am a new poster to THIS particular Bills board, and I look forward to talking football with this board. I have been a regular on the BBMB on the official site for awhile now and the lack of knowledge there astounds me sometimes. I have been perusing this board and can safely say, that I am "in the right place". I sincerely hope that you enjoy my posts and I hope to have lengthy, knowledgable debates.

 

To the point, there is a myth that this team is "lacking" along the Oline and in particular at the LT spot. To be honest, I have to find that laughable. The real problem with this offense is the Quarterback.

 

Lets not forget the fact that the QB (I cant even say his name sometimes he makes me sick) was the LEAST sacked QB in the NFL this year, even after injuries at critical positions along the offensive front. Lets also add QB pressures to this equation, of which the Qb was ONLY pressured on 135 of his 569 dropbacks or a rate of every 4.2% of dropbacks. Lets compare that number to QB's who are considered to "have all day" behind great offensive lines.

 

Drew Brees - 174 pressured dropbacks

 

Tom Brady - 173 pressured dropbacks

 

Aaron Rodgers - 158 pressured dropbacks

 

Eli Manning - 244 pressured dropbacks (the WORST OLINE in the league, and they won a Super Bowl)

 

There are 14 QB's who started every game this year (E. Manning/Brees/Freeman/Ryan/Rivers/Newton/Flacco/Dalton/Brady/Stafford/A. Smith/Rodgers/Sanchez). There are also Qb's who missed 1-4 games and their Olines surrendered more pressures than that of our Bills they are Vick/Grossman/Mccoy/Romo/Tebow/T. Jackson/Roethlisberger/Bradford/Gabbert. That is 22 Qb's who faced more pressure than Fitzpatrick and 9 of them didnt play 16 games. Of the remaining 12 QB's who started this year only Matt Hasselbeck threw more then 300 times.

 

This Buffalo Bills Oline is one of the strongest units in the league, and they receive constant hatred from some that are too enamoured by a QB who is nothing more than a solid spot-duty BACKUP.

 

Not enough to make some of you believers in this Oline, and non-Billievers in the QB? Well how about this:

 

Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio when under pressure ranked him 3rd worst in the league and only Curtis Painter (1 TD/ 4 Ints) and Carson Palmer (2 TD's/ 10 Ints) were worse. Fitzpatricks TD/INT ratio under pressure was 2 TD's/ 8 INts.

 

How about his completion % under pressure? Well Fitz ranked at the bottom of the league at that as well at an abysmal 43.6%, hitting only 44 out of 101 attempts.

 

ladies and Gentleman this is definitive proof of the QB being the issue and not the Offensive line.

 

Let me also add that this team was dead last in 3 and outs this year. look, I realize the defense could benefit greatly from a pass rusher (in fact a pass rusher should be the pick in 2 of the first 3 rounds), but fans overlook that when your offense is giving the ball back to the opposing team after ONLY 3 plays that doesnt allow for the defense to properly make in-game adjustments and talk with the coaches about scheme on the sideline.

 

We must address the QB situation with haste, if not this team will continue to be muddled in mediocrity.

All true but the LT is in constant flux with Bell always hurt and not the answer, Hairston isn't suited to the left side and Fitz doesn't make me sick he just isn't great so hopefully the Bills will draft Ryan Tannehill, BJ Colemon or Brock Osweiler and get a competent LT.

[metzelaars_lives]

Hairston has a chance to be a starting caliber right tackle- we can't keep moving him around though- or he won't have a shot at being good enough.

 

I love it. So you're saying there is a possibility that someday Chris Hairston develops into a guy who will be capable of being an average NFL starter at the less important of the two tackle positions. What a vote of confidence. I would say he was already a starting caliber LEFT TACKLE as a rookie and there is a CHANCE he develops into an elite one. Another poster who falls into the "completely dismiss the numbers the offensive line helped put up last year and attribute it all to Fitz's magical quick release powers and oh yeah, Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller must literally be the two best RB's in the league" category.

[PDaDdy]

Stating that the NY Giants have the worst O line in the NFL because they allowed 244 pressures this season is kinda lame. Stats don't mean much when you look at both teams closely. There is so much difference between the two different teams (Bills-Giants) The players, the schemes and plays that are called. The Bills mostly utilize a short passing game, and depend on getting the ball out very quickly which can skew the stats into looking better then they really are.

 

 

Look at the amount of games played by the Giants O linemen this year and the last few years to understand the concept of "continuity". Look how many game starts their players have had over the last 5 years vs the Buffalo Bills O line to understand the reasoning behind the as to why having solid healthy good players is so important to having a good team.

 

Lets look at that NY Giants O line.

 

NY Giants David Diehl is a guard who was kicked out to LT this year because of an injury to the starter and it worked for them because the guy has been on the team since 2003 and basically played almost 16 games every year since he started in 03. (a great player) HE IS A PRO BOWLER (one time) The guy might have been a 5th round pick but he has definitely played like a top draft pick over his career. But then the Giants have a far superior scouting dept, GM and talent evaluation process then the Bills currently have. 140 games played 140 game starts is amazing

RG Chris Snee, a guard and 2nd round pick has been with the team since 2004. another player who has played almost 16 games every year since he was drafted HE IS A PRO BOWLER (three time) 120 games played, 120 games starts is amazing

 

RT Kareem Mckenzie, an 11 year vet that was drafted in the 3rd round by the jets and joined the Giants in 2005. Look at this players history of starts since joining the Giants, missing only 7 games in 7 years. 161 games 153 starts

C David Baas one year for the Giants and 2nd round pick of the 49ers in 2005, 11 games played 11 games started.

 

G Kevin Boothe 16 games-9 game starts who took over for starting G William Beatty 10 G-10 GS, a 2nd round pick of the Giants in 2009.

 

The Giants had some injuries on that O line this season and that may be the reason for the 9-7 season The Giants O line is superior to anything the Bills have fielded since the 1990's. Snee and Diehl are both pro bowlers that are lock downs at their positions

 

 

 

Fitz played on a bad team with a crazy amount on injuries to some key players. O line, WR, TE. The Bills had ONE decent WR ranked 19th , the Giants have 3 top WR's that actually catch everything even thrown remotely close to them. Victor Cruz was the #3 WR in the league with 82 receptions,1536 yards-Hakeem Nicks was the 12th rated WR with 76 receptions, 1192 yards. Now consider the coverage teams will run on those players, is it easier to roll coverages to one WR or to 3?

 

Talk about continuity, the Giants QB has been in the same system-scheme under the same HC and OC since Eli Manning was drafted as the first overall pick in the 2004 draft.

 

Comparing the bills to the Giants might have been somewhat valid in week 6 when they played against each other this year, they did play a close game 27-24. But once the injuries hit the Bills there was no comparison. Unlike the Giants who had some decent depth for their O line. The Buffalo Bills had no answer for the center position once Eric Wood went on IR. They tried 4 guys at center including G Andy Levitre and it was a horrid move. So GM Nix was forced to find warm bodies off the street to fill in on that line and for the WR position.

 

The QB isn't the biggest problem with this team, even the FO and owner acknowledged that fact. The line needs better players who can stay healthy, and some depth. They need a pass rush and a defense like the Giants have. They need better LBers to stop the run. They need some WR's and a TE who can stay health.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. whats kinda funny is that the site you link where you got the stats from considers Ryan Fitzpatrick the 8th best QB in the league in avoiding sacks which is pretty darn good considering the talent around him.

 

http://www.profootba...1-quarterbacks/

 

Yeah! And the crowd gives the poster a 10! You really pegged D2K there. LOL. Figured I would join in with the strategy of praising a poster while back handing another while not addressing the points.

 

P.S. Great points although they will fall on deaf ears because as he states he doesn't believe he can learn anything from me and probably you.

 

Ya know man I always agree with your posts. You speak truth, sense, and a rare thing called positivity around here. I hope most of these people are hoping they are wrong because all they talk about is how bad the bills are. Isnt this supposed to be a forum for bills fans? So many people on here sit here and pick out certain players on this TEAM with a 53 PERSON roster and bash them. They sit on here as if they were patriots fans and argue to the death how bad the players, management, and other fans are of the team they are SUPPOSEDLY fans of. I don't get it. Fitz isn't the best qb in the league and our o-line isn't the best either but they are our team so we should support all of them while they are playing for our team. I know everyone is sick of losing and it pisses me off too but slowly things are turning around everyone can feel it. Playoffs 2012 mark my words. Wildcard spot. Win or lose think of how great it will be to get excited for a playoff game again. Also calling pro bowl for dareus, wood,, Fitz, Fred, Stevie, and maybe levitre

 

AMEN brother. I have said the same that supposed fans should support the few good players we have but people want a target for their frustration and they want a single face to direct it at.

[Beerball]

I misunderstood the reason for posting the link. My bad. My point is what Chris Brown writes as the Bills lead journalist should be taken with a huge grain of salt. It's just my opinion.

Chris Brown is a shill for the organization, that's his job. But in this case he is 'reporting' or transcribing the words of a coach. What difference does it make whether a Bills coach is quoted by BB.com compared to the Buff News or D&C? I've given Brown plenty of crap for his fluff stuff but in this case he's just the conduit IMO.

[D2K]

Stating that the NY Giants have the worst O line in the NFL because they allowed 244 pressures this season is kinda lame. Stats don't mean much when you look at both teams closely. There is so much difference between the two different teams (Bills-Giants) The players, the schemes and plays that are called. The Bills mostly utilize a short passing game, and depend on getting the ball out very quickly which can skew the stats into looking better then they really are.

 

 

Look at the amount of games played by the Giants O linemen this year and the last few years to understand the concept of "continuity". Look how many game starts their players have had over the last 5 years vs the Buffalo Bills O line to understand the reasoning behind the as to why having solid healthy good players is so important to having a good team.

 

Lets look at that NY Giants O line.

 

NY Giants David Diehl is a guard who was kicked out to LT this year because of an injury to the starter and it worked for them because the guy has been on the team since 2003 and basically played almost 16 games every year since he started in 03. (a great player) HE IS A PRO BOWLER (one time) The guy might have been a 5th round pick but he has definitely played like a top draft pick over his career. But then the Giants have a far superior scouting dept, GM and talent evaluation process then the Bills currently have. 140 games played 140 game starts is amazing

RG Chris Snee, a guard and 2nd round pick has been with the team since 2004. another player who has played almost 16 games every year since he was drafted HE IS A PRO BOWLER (three time) 120 games played, 120 games starts is amazing

 

RT Kareem Mckenzie, an 11 year vet that was drafted in the 3rd round by the jets and joined the Giants in 2005. Look at this players history of starts since joining the Giants, missing only 7 games in 7 years. 161 games 153 starts

C David Baas one year for the Giants and 2nd round pick of the 49ers in 2005, 11 games played 11 games started.

 

G Kevin Boothe 16 games-9 game starts who took over for starting G William Beatty 10 G-10 GS, a 2nd round pick of the Giants in 2009.

 

The Giants had some injuries on that O line this season and that may be the reason for the 9-7 season The Giants O line is superior to anything the Bills have fielded since the 1990's. Snee and Diehl are both pro bowlers that are lock downs at their positions

 

 

 

Fitz played on a bad team with a crazy amount on injuries to some key players. O line, WR, TE. The Bills had ONE decent WR ranked 19th , the Giants have 3 top WR's that actually catch everything even thrown remotely close to them. Victor Cruz was the #3 WR in the league with 82 receptions,1536 yards-Hakeem Nicks was the 12th rated WR with 76 receptions, 1192 yards. Now consider the coverage teams will run on those players, is it easier to roll coverages to one WR or to 3?

 

Talk about continuity, the Giants QB has been in the same system-scheme under the same HC and OC since Eli Manning was drafted as the first overall pick in the 2004 draft.

 

Comparing the bills to the Giants might have been somewhat valid in week 6 when they played against each other this year, they did play a close game 27-24. But once the injuries hit the Bills there was no comparison. Unlike the Giants who had some decent depth for their O line. The Buffalo Bills had no answer for the center position once Eric Wood went on IR. They tried 4 guys at center including G Andy Levitre and it was a horrid move. So GM Nix was forced to find warm bodies off the street to fill in on that line and for the WR position.

 

The QB isn't the biggest problem with this team, even the FO and owner acknowledged that fact. The line needs better players who can stay healthy, and some depth. They need a pass rush and a defense like the Giants have. They need better LBers to stop the run. They need some WR's and a TE who can stay health.

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. whats kinda funny is that the site you link where you got the stats from considers Ryan Fitzpatrick the 8th best QB in the league in avoiding sacks which is pretty darn good considering the talent around him.

 

http://www.profootba...1-quarterbacks/

 

So in your opinion, the Giants Oline is good because they have played more games together? This reasoning is horrible. Stats dont matter? I am not sure what kind of offense you think Kevin Gilbride runs? I guess because I have to reiterate AGAIN, Eli Manning gets the ball out FASTER than ANY other QB in the league. PERIOD!!!! Not FItz, Not anyone else you can think of, ELI. WHY? Because he gets pressured and hit more than ANY other QB in the league. Both their tackles are absolutely bottom of the league starters and are players that age has caught up to and they both are on the way out. Instead of myself reiterating stats that I have already given you, I will instead just post this link:

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/01/super-bowl-focus-clinging-to-the-edge/

 

Then you go into a long-winded rant about how many starts each player has, which holds absolutley ZERO bareing on how much actual talent that unit has. I am impressed that you said alot without actually saying anything at all. I can just say, read the article, I have already given concrete facts and somehow they are overlooked to prove a point that jsut isnt there to begin with.

Edited February 15, 2012 by D2K

[HuSeYiN1978]

Fitz played a solid game against what was the #1 ranked defense for much of the year. No turnovers completing passes to 8 different receivers. That was the infamous game Buddy Nix was referring to that our defense made a rookie look like an all pro.

 

Against the Jets with a helping hand from SJ and one of his ill timed TD drops we lost another one. Lets not forget we just lost Parrish who was a big part of our first 3 games in his new role. Not a great game by Fitz and more importantly a bad game for THE TEAM.

 

I don't see the value in pointing out a bad game here or there. How did superbowl winning QB Eli Manning look in the Giants several game slide before backing into the play offs at 9 - 7? How did Tom Brady look against the Ravens and the Giants in the Pats last two games of the season? Guess they aren't franchise QBs because they had a couple bad games.

 

 

 

Hey man you are the one swinging from D2k's junk not me. You're taking your daughter AND your girlfriend out for Valentines Day?

 

Yea she's 8 and me and my girlfriend wanted to take her with us. AND?

[D2K]

Yeah! And the crowd gives the poster a 10! You really pegged D2K there. LOL. Figured I would join in with the strategy of praising a poster while back handing another while not addressing the points.

 

P.S. Great points although they will fall on deaf ears because as he states he doesn't believe he can learn anything from me and probably you.

 

 

 

AMEN brother. I have said the same that supposed fans should support the few good players we have but people want a target for their frustration and they want a single face to direct it at.

 

He really "pegged me"? His whole retort was the Giants Oline has starts together. When in fact they had their starting LT this year go on IR early. I dont equate an illogical argument to "pegging" somebody.

Edited February 15, 2012 by D2K

[tennesseeboy]

We have not had a good offensive tackle since Peters left. The offense this year was crafted around a poor offensive line, and was rather effective for a while. The team has gotten progressively worse since Jauron left (I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM SAYING THIS) with a 3-4 concept that has been a mess, with the failure to keep quality players and bizarre drafting policy year after year.

 

I think the offensiveness weakness is not so much quarterback as it is offensive line and receivers, quality and depth. Fitz is an average qb... the tackle positions are considerably less than average.

[thebandit27]

He really "pegged me"? His whole retort was the Giants Oline has starts together. When in fact they had their starting LT this year go on IR early. I dont equate an illogical argument to "pegging" somebody.

 

That's been his revolving argument about offensive line play for over 2 years (going back to when he went by the handle "thewildrabbit").

 

He basically thinks that # of starts equates to performance. It doesn't.

 

That said, I am totally stuck in the middle on this debate. I think that the offensive line--when healthy--performed pretty well. Not top 10 in the league, but certainly not bottom 10 either. The interior run blocking was strong, but you can't neglect the idea that the running backs' ability to hit the holes has a lot to do with their success in the run game. One look at Football Outsiders advanced OL stats tells you that both the blocking (Adjusted Line Yards) and running backs (2nd Level Yards) rank in the top 10 in the league:

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

So--as far as the running game goes--it's really a combination of factors. However, I do agree with you that the line should receive their fair share of credit for run game success.

 

The pass blocking, to me, is more of the same story. When healthy, the pass protection was fine for the most part. There were portions of games where they had letdowns, and not all of them were pass-protection-related. There were times when Fitz just didn't make his decisions soon enough, despite having adequate time to throw the ball.

 

Like I said, I fall right in the middle on this one. I am all for grabbing a top-flight LT in round 1 if one of the top 3 guys is still on the board. If they aren't, the team will have to make due with Hairston and Bell (if they re-sign him) and hope they stay healthy and show off-season improvement.

 

So in your opinion, the Giants Oline is good because they have played more games together? This reasoning is horrible. Stats dont matter? I am not sure what kind of offense you think Kevin Gilbride runs? I guess because I have to reiterate AGAIN, Eli Manning gets the ball out FASTER than ANY other QB in the league. PERIOD!!!! Not FItz, Not anyone else you can think of, ELI. WHY? Because he gets pressured and hit more than ANY other QB in the league. Both their tackles are absolutely bottom of the league starters and are players that age has caught up to and they both are on the way out. Instead of myself reiterating stats that I have already given you, I will instead just post this link:

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/01/super-bowl-focus-clinging-to-the-edge/

 

Then you go into a long-winded rant about how many starts each player has, which holds absolutley ZERO bareing on how much actual talent that unit has. I am impressed that you said alot without actually saying anything at all. I can just say, read the article, I have already given concrete facts and somehow they are overlooked to prove a point that jsut isnt there to begin with.

 

You can show him all you want, in his mind, experience = performance. Save yourself the trouble and let your argument stand on it's own.

[Ramius]

The OL did perform admirably this season, but not great. They were middle of the road. However, the OT situation is simply unacceptable. We don't necessarily need an OT specifically at #10, but an upgrade is in order be it a FA or in the first few rounds the draft (1-3).

[DrDawkinstein]

Runs from thread? What? I just got off of work and had to commute home, no one is shying away from debate. Pdaddy hasnt made one legit point that I have countered so not sure what you are talking about?

 

As far as Peters, I would compare Bell to Peters. Both extremely athletic, agile, quick feet, and are capable of being maulers. Mental lapses from time to time, but not enough of a worry to constitute looking to replace. Need I go on?

 

As PDaddy pointed out, I was busting HIS chops about a long running discussion/joke. No worries

[PDaDdy]

So in your opinion, the Giants Oline is good because they have played more games together? This reasoning is horrible. Stats dont matter? I am not sure what kind of offense you think Kevin Gilbride runs? I guess because I have to reiterate AGAIN, Eli Manning gets the ball out FASTER than ANY other QB in the league. PERIOD!!!! Not FItz, Not anyone else you can think of, ELI. WHY? Because he gets pressured and hit more than ANY other QB in the league. Both their tackles are absolutely bottom of the league starters and are players that age has caught up to and they both are on the way out. Instead of myself reiterating stats that I have already given you, I will instead just post this link:

 

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/01/super-bowl-focus-clinging-to-the-edge/

 

Then you go into a long-winded rant about how many starts each player has, which holds absolutley ZERO bareing on how much actual talent that unit has. I am impressed that you said alot without actually saying anything at all. I can just say, read the article, I have already given concrete facts and somehow they are overlooked to prove a point that jsut isnt there to begin with.

 

Dude QBs that hold on to the ball get pressures and sacks not a guy with the quickest get out like Fitz. That can account for all of his pressures not his line that can't hold up for a long time. Where is your proof of Eli getting rid of the ball the fastest? I have provide a link that Matt Hasselbeck gets rid of it in 2.36 seconds. That same article says that Fitz and the Bills are the fastest. You do the math.

 

As far as offensive lineman playing together a long time. It's a thing called CHEMISTRY. You know the thing that makes a offensive line a cohesive unit. You can't dismiss that. Again the same coaching and system this creates CONTINUITY. You can't dismiss that. Look at the defense the guy has on the other side of the ball that when healthy can keep the Giants in any game! Look at his WR core compared to our wild cat QB, a RB and cast offs that we have had to start throughout the year. Where are your concrete facts that are not in anyway effected by a multitude of factors? Is the line to blame for a QB that holds on to the ball to long? Again. No factual stats to back up your claims.

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy

[DrDawkinstein]

Ya know man I always agree with your posts. You speak truth, sense, and a rare thing called positivity around here. I hope most of these people are hoping they are wrong because all they talk about is how bad the bills are. Isnt this supposed to be a forum for bills fans? So many people on here sit here and pick out certain players on this TEAM with a 53 PERSON roster and bash them. They sit on here as if they were patriots fans and argue to the death how bad the players, management, and other fans are of the team they are SUPPOSEDLY fans of. I don't get it. Fitz isn't the best qb in the league and our o-line isn't the best either but they are our team so we should support all of them while they are playing for our team. I know everyone is sick of losing and it pisses me off too but slowly things are turning around everyone can feel it. Playoffs 2012 mark my words. Wildcard spot. Win or lose think of how great it will be to get excited for a playoff game again. Also calling pro bowl for dareus, wood,, Fitz, Fred, Stevie, and maybe levitre

 

Thanks Bro! I feel ya on the playoffs. I think that with a couple correct moves this offseason, the AFC East is ours for the taking. Of course, most of that is based on re-signing most of our FAs, signing a couple outside FAs, and having another great draft. Either way, I'll be here through the entire thing. Go Bills!!

[PDaDdy]

He really "pegged me"? His whole retort was the Giants Oline has starts together. When in fact they had their starting LT this year go on IR early. I dont equate an illogical argument to "pegging" somebody.

 

Just an annoying useless post as others have made complementing one poster while really making a backhanded stab at another. Thought I would join in on the fun. You completely missed his point of a "gelled" offensive line as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

Keep ignoring all the other problems and focus on one guy. I'm sure the Bills thank you for your support. Keep harping on players that are actually good enough instead of focusing on the guys that aren't. Maybe we can run Fitz out of town and let some other QB with a slow release and no balls get killed behind this line. Perhaps you would prefer another Edwards? We saw how he wasn't up to the task behind that line. We also saw how the line looked when Thigpen got in there for a while. Now THAT was not starting QB play.

 

Keep obsessing about the wrong guy. I can't WAIT until football starts. I wonder what your excuse will be if we can keep people healthy especially at WR and Fitz comes out gunning again. I look forward to continuing this conversation when the bullets start flying and look forward to your excuses for explaining away Fitz's expected success. Hopefully you won't change your screen name or stop posting by then. This going to be fun!

Edited February 15, 2012 by PDaDdy

[hondo in seattle]

Again, completely laughable and lacks substance. Where are you getting your 2.7 stat? That couldnt be further from the truth.

 

You are interpreting what I am saying completely wrong. Reading comprehension 101 dude.

 

Eli Manning had the LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME than ANY other QB in the league from snap to release. The LEAST, not Fitz or Hasselbeck, who were protected by two of the best Olines in football this year arent even middle of the pack.

 

I never once said that players found in the later rounds are always studs, but the same can be said about 1st rounders, hence the word "BUST". That label ONLY gets associated with 1st rounders and anyone calling any player a bust who was drafted outside of the first round really has no clue. What I said was you dont waste 1st round picks on offensive lineman especially at the 10th pick in the draft.

 

I also NEVER said that I cant learn anything more about football, or made reference to me being the "all-knowing", what I said was that YOU couldnt teach me anything about football that I already havent forgotten.

 

while your at it, why dont you go ahead and chew on these stats for awhile....

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

 

Football Outsiders uses some simple formulae and makes them sound fancy/accurate by tossing around statistical terms like "regression analysis" and the like. I don't always agree with their methodology. Even statisticians have to evaluate things, weigh categories, etc. It's a subjective process no matter how many numbers are involved.

 

In any case, they assign the Bills a 3.8% adjusted sack rate which is the league's best. Nobody is arguing that the Bills didn't do a good job avoiding sacks. The question that no statistician can ultimately decide is why. Was it scheme? Play selection? Quick decision making by Fitz? Or was it, as you argue, good offensive line play?

 

Personally, I think all deserve some of the credit, including especially scheme and quick QB decisions. Fitz did a good job of getting the ball out of his hand before taking the sack. The throw might not have been pretty but at least it wasn't an 8 yard loss.

[PDaDdy]

We have not had a good offensive tackle since Peters left. The offense this year was crafted around a poor offensive line, and was rather effective for a while. The team has gotten progressively worse since Jauron left (I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM SAYING THIS) with a 3-4 concept that has been a mess, with the failure to keep quality players and bizarre drafting policy year after year.

 

I think the offensiveness weakness is not so much quarterback as it is offensive line and receivers, quality and depth. Fitz is an average qb... the tackle positions are considerably less than average.

 

Thanks for getting it. Our line hasn't shown that it can hold up long enough to allow the Brady, Rogers and Drew Brees type throws where they might have to make a slight shift in the pocket and get 5+ seconds at times to hit WRs that can actually create separation and catch the ball with their hands outside their torso.

 

Football Outsiders uses some simple formulae and makes them sound fancy/accurate by tossing around statistical terms like "regression analysis" and the like. I don't always agree with their methodology. Even statisticians have to evaluate things, weigh categories, etc. It's a subjective process no matter how many numbers are involved.

 

In any case, they assign the Bills a 3.8% adjusted sack rate which is the league's best. Nobody is arguing that the Bills didn't do a good job avoiding sacks. The question that no statistician can ultimately decide is why. Was it scheme? Play selection? Quick decision making by Fitz? Or was it, as you argue, good offensive line play?

 

Personally, I think all deserve some of the credit, including especially scheme and quick QB decisions. Fitz did a good job of getting the ball out of his hand before taking the sack. The throw might not have been pretty but at least it wasn't an 8 yard loss.

 

[thewildrabbit]

So in your opinion, the Giants Oline is good because they have played more games together? This reasoning is horrible. Stats dont matter? I am not sure what kind of offense you think Kevin Gilbride runs? I guess because I have to reiterate AGAIN, Eli Manning gets the ball out FASTER than ANY other QB in the league. PERIOD!!!! Not FItz, Not anyone else you can think of, ELI. WHY? Because he gets pressured and hit more than ANY other QB in the league. Both their tackles are absolutely bottom of the league starters and are players that age has caught up to and they both are on the way out. Instead of myself reiterating stats that I have already given you, I will instead just post this link:

 

http://www.profootba...ng-to-the-edge/

 

Then you go into a long-winded rant about how many starts each player has, which holds absolutley ZERO bareing on how much actual talent that unit has. I am impressed that you said alot without actually saying anything at all. I can just say, read the article, I have already given concrete facts and somehow they are overlooked to prove a point that jsut isnt there to begin with.

 

I like how you ignore a lot of what I said and focus on just the Giants O line and Eli Manning and his supposed ability to get the ball out faster then any other NFL QB.

 

OK Well, lets talk about this supposed fact that Eli Manning gets the ball out faster then any other QB in the NFL. Are you referring to his release or his ability to find the open receiver and get him the ball once the ball is snapped? Manning might get more pressures simply because his game plans call for him to take deeper drops, like way more 5-7 step drops then the Bills utilize.

 

Now I won't argue that Fitz isn't that quick in his delivery. Even Trent Edwards was timed by ESPN as one of the fastest QB's in the NFL at getting the ball out once he started the throwing motion. Now we all know the difference between Fitz and captain check-down. Ryan Fitzpatrick has an uncanny ability to find the open receiver and get him the ball in about 3 seconds or under. If you don't believe me ....will you believe NY Giants DE Osi Umenyiora when he stated such in an article by ex Giant Chris Canty

 

""The Giants' pass rush won't necessarily surrender Sunday, but it will change tactics. Big Blue has piled up 11 sacks since Umenyiora's Week 4 return, but isn't likely to get many against Buffalo. On average, Fitzpatrick fires the ball just 1.5 seconds after taking the snap, Umenyiora said. On set plays," Umenyiora said, "nobody can get to him."

Here is a link to an article by ESPN, and note that it was written when Eric Wood / Dem Bell were still healthy .. QB

The team that takes the shortest amount of time to throw is the Buffalo Bills. Fitzpatrick, also a top-10 quarterback according to Total QBR, has to get the ball out so quickly because Buffalo's offensive line is the second-worst in the league at allowing pass pressure within three seconds in the pocket.

 

 

 

 

Long winded rant?.... I'm trying to point out to you how important the term "continuity" is and the difference between players that only play 7 games a season vs players that play 16 games year in and year out since they started. David Diehl primarily plays guard and was kicked out to LT when the injuries hit that Giants O line. Unlike the Bills, the Giants were able to pull it together and give Manning the time to make most of his throws. The Bills tried to move Levitre to LT and it was an unmitigated disaster and had to move him back to guard. Diehl OTOH stayed at LT and played well enough all the way thru the season and SB.

 

You are trying to state that the Bills don't need a LT, which is complete BS. Even if they retain Bell he is a "maybe player" compared to those NY Giant players that DON"T MISS GAMES! The rookie Hairston did a decent job considering he usually only had to hold his blocks for 3 seconds, but he needs more experience and also needs to stay healthy as he missed time last year due to injuries. Should the Bills decide not to re sign Bell then they are in deep poop because they need more stability and depth at LT then just Chris Hairston.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adam]

He really "pegged me"? His whole retort was the Giants Oline has starts together. When in fact they had their starting LT this year go on IR early. I dont equate an illogical argument to "pegging" somebody.

As far as the Giants O-line goes, they have to be good enough to overcome an incompetent offensive coordinator.

 

Yea she's 8 and me and my girlfriend wanted to take her with us. AND?

You showed a lot more class with that answer than I would have- There is nothing wrong with that, it says something about you and your girlfriend that you would do that.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Adam