Is there a possible pass rush on the Bills 2011 roster?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The Toronto mystery. After being AWOL all season, the Bills tore into Toronto and absolutely scalped the Washington OL.

 

Who were those guys? They haven't been seen since.

 

I get it that we lack a Ware or Von Miller. But they did manage - once.

 

With the proper schemes, is there any way to at least bring back some rattle-the-QB-cage strong pressure?

 

(if your response is Bills suck, Chan sucks, fire Edwards - you're in the wrong thread. There's a place for you, down the hall, first left.

looking for some intelligent football discussion here).

[Captain Hindsight]

Honestly we played the deadskins and Beck is awful. There was a breakdown of all the sacks and most were on beck not getting rid of the ball. The scheme worked that day too but their o line was pretty beat up too

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Honestly we played the deadskins and Beck is awful. There was a breakdown of all the sacks and most were on beck not getting rid of the ball. The scheme worked that day too but their o line was pretty beat up too

 

So in hindsight, your take on it is, if the QB we face has a sack, the Bills don't get any sacks?

[sllib olaffub]

I can't give you the X's and O's, but I believe if we have Rex Ryan coaching this same group of players, we'd have a defense at least in the top 15. Take any of the good, creative D-coordinators. They find ways to make a scheme work around the players they have.

Why isn't George Edwards doing that? Either he truly does stink - and, I think he does, at least at the D-coordinator position - or, and maybe it is a little of both, he isn't getting any pressure to change from the higher ups. I know that doesn't sound right, but there is a doubt in the back of my mind with Nix and Gailey that they really didn't expect to win much for the first few years. I feel like they came in with the mind set that the team was ran into the ground, that Nix wanted to implement a 3-4 defense that would take 3-4 years to aquire the right talent for, and maybe they aren't changing schemes up because in their minds they need to suffer the growing pains of becoming a 3-4 defense. I know - it isn't that simple or black and white. But, if they were dead serious, first and foremost about winning - if winning was the expectation here this season, there is no way Edwards would have kept this defense up without either a serious change-up in scheme, or we might have seen Edwards canned and Wannstadt replace him.

 

So, yeah, we could see a rush - it doesn't have to come from OLB's. It could come from the secondary, it could come from the D-line, it could come from Moats, or Sheppard, or Barnett - all depending on the scheme.

Edited December 3, 2011 by sllib olaffub

[NewEra]

From the looks of it, only Moats and Merriman have any real pass rush skill. Kelsey is ok too, but rarely finishes the play. Merriman is always injured and moats seems to be very weak vs the run. Our best chance for a pass rush might be moving to a 4-3 and getting penetration up the middle from Dareus and Williams. The problem with the 4-3 is Sheppard won't get any time in the middle, unless Barnett moves to the outside. Can Barnett be effective as a 4-3 OLB again? I dunno, I'd hope so. Personally, I think moats is strictly a backup that should only play in pure passing situations. I like the kid, but he isn't stout enough vs the run and lacks the instincts at this point in time. Batten, I've given up. Coleman/Eddins, who knows, most likely just depth if they even make the team next year. Drafting an OLB that can get to the qb is obviously high on our wish list. Hopefully we can draft one that pans out. We need a legit pass rusher, or our D will continue to struggle IMO.

[jcbillsfan]

Not really , having williams healthy will help but they need a strong quick player who demands double teams and when he is not doubles teams he destroys his man

[Nostradamus]

In a word, no. Who would you say our best pass rusher is? Moats, Kelsey? On most teams, Kelsey would probably be taken OFF the field on passing downs. Whoever our best pass rusher is, I guarantee you that 31 other teams have a better one. Most of them would have three or four better rushers than whoever our best guy is.

 

Nix's plan A was to rely on an injury-riddled former superstar that hasn't been effective in 3-4 years. There was no plan B. While I am not a fan of George Edwards and think he is a hack, I do not think that there are any defensive coordinators that could generate a consistent pass rush with what we have. Though, I do think a good coordinator could dial up a successful blitz based on scheme for the opportune time, such as the Third and 11 the Jets converted when Edwards chose to rush a corner and Sanchez made the very obvious read.

 

Instead, on passing down, recognizing how inept our rush is, I'd implement a scheme similar to what the Bills did in 1999 under Cottrell. Frequently, they'd only rush 3, drop 8, and more often than not there would be nowhere for a QB to throw the football. I think we have the personnel to do this, given that we have fast corners, good safeties, and guys like Barnett and Scott who can drop in coverage as well. Of course, as poor as our run defense is, it is not too often we get teams into 3rd and long situations.

 

In short, I think the talent level on this defense is pretty weak, and we have a coordinator who amplifies our deficiencies instead of hiding them. Add it up, and we are watching one of the worst defenses in franchise history.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Nostradamus

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I'm still not sure what happened in that game… but it's hard to explain away 10 sacks regardless of how many reasons you come up with.

 

I know the Bills plan was to have a healthy Merriman and Kyle Williams to go with a healthy Kelsay.

 

None of those things happened.

 

I think that the lack of pass rush is mostly talent depletion (also they didn't do enough to stack pass rushers) but also some coaching.

 

I'm not a big fan of Gregg Williams but you won't convince me that the Bills wouldn't have more sacks if he was the DC.

[EldaBillsFan]

they'll probably close this stat its been talked about in the last two weeks

Edited December 3, 2011 by EldaBillsFan

[NoSaint]

I can't give you the X's and O's, but I believe if we have Rex Ryan coaching this same group of players, we'd have a defense at least in the top 15. Take any of the good, creative D-coordinators. They find ways to make a scheme work around the players they have.

Why isn't George Edwards doing that? Either he truly does stink - and, I think he does, at least at the D-coordinator position - or, and maybe it is a little of both, he isn't getting any pressure to change from the higher ups. I know that doesn't sound right, but there is a doubt in the back of my mind with Nix and Gailey that they really didn't expect to win much for the first few years. I feel like they came in with the mind set that the team was ran into the ground, that Nix wanted to implement a 3-4 defense that would take 3-4 years to aquire the right talent for, and maybe they aren't changing schemes up because in their minds they need to suffer the growing pains of becoming a 3-4 defense. I know - it isn't that simple or black and white. But, if they were dead serious, first and foremost about winning - if winning was the expectation here this season, there is no way Edwards would have kept this defense up without either a serious change-up in scheme, or we might have seen Edwards canned and Wannstadt replace him.

 

So, yeah, we could see a rush - it doesn't have to come from OLB's. It could come from the secondary, it could come from the D-line, it could come from Moats, or Sheppard, or Barnett - all depending on the scheme.

 

Any of those guys would fight to the death to get the Suggs, ware, Lewis, Bart Scott intense linebackers on their squad. show me one running an effective 34 without (often multiple) beasts at the second level and I'll concede.

 

Bal- Suggs and Lewis

Nyj- Harris and Scott

Gb- Matthews

Dallas- ware

Pitt- Harrison, Timmons and farrior

49ers- Patrick Willis.

 

 

We are discussing our 6th round converted DE in moats, 30 year old converted DE in Kelsay, and Spencer Johnson a converted DT. It's hard to say we are at a similar talent level

[K-9]

I found George Wilson's comments about the "20 plus" mental errors last Sunday very telling. Last Sunday wasn't the first time they've made so many errors, either. A scheme never won a game in the NFL, only the players' ability to execute it. Most of our players on defense can't win one on one battles with any consistency and anyone who can't see that is blind to reality. Add the lack of physical talent to the obvious lack of mental acuity and you have the very definition of poor football players. It's the players, people. More than anything else.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I found George Wilson's comments about the "20 plus" mental errors last Sunday very telling. Last Sunday wasn't the first time they've made so many errors, either. A scheme never won a game in the NFL, only the players' ability to execute it. Most of our players on defense can't win one on one battles with any consistency and anyone who can't see that is blind to reality. Add the lack of physical talent to the obvious lack of mental acuity and you have the very definition of poor football players. It's the players, people. More than anything else.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think Wilson's "20 plus mental errors" comment (whether it was his intention or not) implicated the young starting DBs, Searcy and Williams, and the coaching staff.

 

It'll be interesting to see if the Bills pass defense can improve without improvement in the pass rush.

 

 

[MacAddict104]

I can't give you the X's and O's, but I believe if we have Rex Ryan coaching this same group of players, we'd have a defense at least in the top 15. Take any of the good, creative D-coordinators. They find ways to make a scheme work around the players they have.

Why isn't George Edwards doing that? Either he truly does stink - and, I think he does, at least at the D-coordinator position - or, and maybe it is a little of both, he isn't getting any pressure to change from the higher ups. I know that doesn't sound right, but there is a doubt in the back of my mind with Nix and Gailey that they really didn't expect to win much for the first few years. I feel like they came in with the mind set that the team was ran into the ground, that Nix wanted to implement a 3-4 defense that would take 3-4 years to aquire the right talent for, and maybe they aren't changing schemes up because in their minds they need to suffer the growing pains of becoming a 3-4 defense. I know - it isn't that simple or black and white. But, if they were dead serious, first and foremost about winning - if winning was the expectation here this season, there is no way Edwards would have kept this defense up without either a serious change-up in scheme, or we might have seen Edwards canned and Wannstadt replace him.

 

So, yeah, we could see a rush - it doesn't have to come from OLB's. It could come from the secondary, it could come from the D-line, it could come from Moats, or Sheppard, or Barnett - all depending on the scheme.

 

I have to agree... In 2008 Perry Fewell had most of the players that Edwards had in 2009. Fewell's defenses were far from dominating but they were decent enough. If we had any offense those teams night have had a shot at postseason.

 

Any of those guys would fight to the death to get the Suggs, ware, Lewis, Bart Scott intense linebackers on their squad. show me one running an effective 34 without (often multiple) beasts at the second level and I'll concede.

 

Bal- Suggs and Lewis

Nyj- Harris and Scott

Gb- Matthews

Dallas- ware

Pitt- Harrison, Timmons and farrior

49ers- Patrick Willis.

 

 

We are discussing our 6th round converted DE in moats, 30 year old converted DE in Kelsay, and Spencer Johnson a converted DT. It's hard to say we are at a similar talent level

 

And who is the person responsible for finding talent?

[NoSaint]

I have to agree... In 2008 Perry Fewell had most of the players that Edwards had in 2009. Fewell's defenses were far from dominating but they were decent enough. If we had any offense those teams night have had a shot at postseason.

 

 

 

And who is the person responsible for finding talent?

 

 

It's a process - cover 2 to big 34 front is about as big a swing as you can make. Very rare that a single player makes it in the front seven, and on the backside your moving away from zone towards man. To stack the deck further, it's not like we didn't need bodies on the other side of the ball during this revamp. I've agreed that it's a 3 year process. Merriman wouldve been a lucky gift from the gods if he worked. I'm still generally happy with the process.

[Captain Hindsight]

So in hindsight, your take on it is, if the QB we face has a sack, the Bills don't get any sacks?

In a nutshell ya

[CardinalScotts]

How about a guy like Kirk Morrison are we that deep at LB he can't even get on the field ? really

[Kemp]

It's not difficult to understand. They had one good game. So what. If Williams returns healthy next year and they acquire one quality pass rusher they will be okay. Two, and they will be a contender.

[BB-Gun]

If we had Williams playing now, he would give qb's no place to step forward to avoid the outside pass-rusher, our pass rush would be more effective. We have Moats to run around the LT and pressure the qb from the outside. Without both an inside and an outside pass rush, any qb could step away from the pressure.

 

By the way, Moats needs to learn to do a spin move, instead of just going as fast as he can around the outside of the LT. He seems to only have 2 moves, that and bull rush.

 

Kelsay is our next best pass-rusher, but he is only pedestrian. WE DON'T HAVE ANY PASS RUSHERS ON THIS ROSTER.

 

The Redskins game was because of the injuries to their O-line, and we played them at the perfect time.

 

Need a pass-rushing OLB next year and healthy Williams.

Edited December 3, 2011 by BB-Gun

[boyst]

We need a speedy OLB like that Maybin the Jets have.

[CSBill]

We need a speedy OLB like that Maybin the Jets have.

 

That is funny

 

I'm still not sure what happened in that game… but it's hard to explain away 10 sacks regardless of how many reasons you come up with.

 

I know the Bills plan was to have a healthy Merriman and Kyle Williams to go with a healthy Kelsay.

 

None of those things happened.

 

I think that the lack of pass rush is mostly talent depletion (also they didn't do enough to stack pass rushers) but also some coaching.

 

I'm not a big fan of Gregg Williams but you won't convince me that the Bills wouldn't have more sacks if he was the DC.

 

Or fill in the blank with just about any other DC than George Edwards in the NFL right now: "I'm not a big fan of Gregg Williams _________ but you won't convince me that the Bills wouldn't have more sacks if he was the DC."