BuffaloWest Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) Folks... Understand a few things here about the chatter regarding The Bills moving to L.A., Toronto, Small Market teams like Buffalo being screwed with new CBA, etc. I work in sports media. These guys are simply , and will admit it off the mic, looking to stir the pot, and create controversy (especially now that there is so little news coming out of the NFL). L.A. getting a team has been the only buzz to report on. I understand how nervous everyone has been about the Bills leaving. It is BS that the team wont put some of the fears to rest, it is not fair to the loyal fans. It would be the right thing to do to have someone at One Bills Drive and say-"Folks, we are committed to doing everything in our power to keep this team here in Buffalo long term and we are working on it every day". Is that asking for too much? For whatever reason -They wont do it. Let's hope it is for the right reasons and not selfish, self serving ones. If Ralph has a plan and the team stays-You erect a bronze statue of him at Delaware Circle. If he simply sells the team when he dies with no care as to where they end up-He is burned in effigy every day for one hundred years-because he absolutely screwed Buffalo. In other words-There are things that can and should be done to keep the team in Buffalo-We can only hope that they are being done behind the scenes....I believe that they are. People in San Diego are just as concerned, if not moreso, that their team-The Chargers are moving to L.A. You think people are nervous in Buffalo, multiply it by 10X here. The Buffalo Bills are mentioned here-It is a hypothetical conversation with Florio...The host who mentions this-Off air-told me this morning-He only does it for controversy purposes, and really has no clue what is really going to happen, but loves to rattle people's cages and start a buzz... Florio keeps saying he believes that since Buffalo isnt mentioned as the team targeted for relocation-It means they are THE team-It is BS guys. Florio doenst know. No one other than Wilson and a handful of other people know what is going to happen, and if I had to bet on it-I think Wilson has a plan-stays true to the town that built his empire, does not want his name sullied by leaving The Bils and their fans out to dry after he dies, and one last thing-You just get the feeling that he would love to give the middle finger to Jerry Jones, Kraft etc from The grave- I have said, and continue to say that the team stays in WNY as The Buffalo Bills. After listening to this, one might believe that San Diego is now in a better position to remain in San Diego because of the new CBA cap expenditure theory and that Buffalo is screwed because we have no corporate support. San Diego doenst have any big corporations other than Qualcomm and some defense contractors-It isnt some big corporate town that fills up luxury boxes at will. They barely sell out here and the team has been good for 10 years, not to mention-There is NO WAY that the Chargers are getting a new stadium. The city and the state are broke...Im telling you- All this media stuff is BS... http://www.xx1090sandiego.com/pages/audiovault09 Look under 6/22 Mike Florio Link Edited June 22, 2011 by BuffaloWest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Great post except for one thing. How in God's name do you quantify that fans in San Diego are ten times more concerned about the Chargers moving to LA than Bills fans? That's insane! For one, I've been to a Bills game in San Diego when the Chargers were very good (2005) and I can assure you, judging by the fervor of the fans in attendance, that they are about one-tenth as passionate football fans as are Bills fans. More importantly, in my job I speak with financial advisors all over the country and just within the last day, I've asked two guys from San Diego how concerned they were about the Chargers potentially moving to LA and they both said the same thing- eh, it's only an hour and a half away, they'd still represent SoCal, they'd still be the Chargers, not the end of the world, etc. Not to mention, that is where they were originally based! Not to insinuate that that is representative of every Chargers fan, but still- you wouldn't find one Bills fan that would EVER say such a thing about the possibility of the Bills leaving WNY. Again, I respect your post, but it is difficult for me to take it seriously after that comment. No hard feelings, just telling it like it is. peace, Metz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richNjoisy Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 This whole argument - see: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/22/new-cba-without-revenue-sharing-changes-could-be-bad-news-for-small-markets/ for example is I AGREE so much blather. Little fact and lots of conjecture clearly designed to cause upset amongst fans that care about small market teams. "low-revenue teams will be forced to sacrifice profit in order to comply" (with the new CBA). This does not mean ALL profit. So, small market teams will only be unprofitable if they somehow find a way spend more than they take in. That IS possible but what we are really talking about is one team making a profit of "x" millions versus "x+y" millions. So the Cowboys make more money than the Bills. Boo hoo. I guess I don't want to own the Bills then, huh? Jeesh. How many yachts does one have to ski behind? Plus - the CBA is not written and approved yet. Wilson managed to squeeze a whole lot of "green " blood out of the big boys in 2006. This time around, he might be able to get 8 other owners to side with him to force a little more "sharing" out of the other 23 (more like the other 5 or 6). Don't cut the old boy short. I really can;t see him sitting back and not fighting for more revenue sharing than is being suggested by the media leakers. Let's see how this plays out. Go Bills! Folks... Understand a few things here about the chatter regarding The Bills moving to L.A., Toronto, Small Market teams like Buffalo being screwed with new CBA, etc. I work in sports media. These guys are simply , and will admit it off the mic, looking to stir the pot, and create controversy (especially now that there is so little news coming out of the NFL). L.A. getting a team has been the only buzz to report on. I understand how nervous everyone has been about the Bills leaving. It is BS that the team wont put some of the fears to rest, it is not fair to the loyal fans. It would be the right thing to do to have someone at One Bills Drive and say-"Folks, we are committed to doing everything in our power to keep this team here in Buffalo long term and we are working on it every day". Is that asking for too much? For whatever reason -They wont do it. Let's hope it is for the right reasons and not selfish, self serving ones. If Ralph has a plan and the team stays-You erect a bronze statue of him at Delaware Circle. If he simply sells the team when he dies with no care as to where they end up-He is burned in effigy every day for one hundred years-because he absolutely screwed Buffalo. In other words-There are things that can and should be done to keep the team in Buffalo-We can only hope that they are being done behind the scenes....I believe that they are. People in San Diego are just as concerned, if not moreso, that their team-The Chargers are moving to L.A. You think people are nervous in Buffalo, multiply it by 10X here. The Buffalo Bills are mentioned here-It is a hypothetical conversation with Florio...The host who mentions this-Off air-told me this morning-He only does it for controversy purposes, and really has no clue what is really going to happen, but loves to rattle people's cages and start a buzz... Florio keeps saying he believes that since Buffalo isnt mentioned as the team targeted for relocation-It means they are THE team-It is BS guys. Florio doenst know. No one other than Wilson and a handful of other people know what is going to happen, and if I had to bet on it-I think Wilson has a plan-stays true to the town that built his empire, does not want his name sullied by leaving The Bils and their fans out to dry after he dies, and one last thing-You just get the feeling that he would love to give the middle finger to Jerry Jones, Kraft etc from The grave- I have said, and continue to say that the team stays in WNY as The Buffalo Bills. After listening to this, one might believe that San Diego is now in a better position to remain in San Diego because of the new CBA cap expenditure theory and that Buffalo is screwed because we have no corporate support. San Diego doenst have any big corporations other than Qualcomm and some defense contractors-It isnt some big corporate town that fills up luxury boxes at will. They barely sell out here and the team has been good for 10 years, not to mention-There is NO WAY that the Chargers are getting a new stadium. The city and the state are broke...Im telling you- All this media stuff is BS... http://www.xx1090sandiego.com/pages/audiovault09 Look under 6/22 Mike Florio Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) If anything, a team with an owner with one foot in the ground and plans to have the team auctioned off right after the funeral is probably the team most likely to be the one that moves. If there was one glaring reason to support the fan base that should be the most worried, you now have it. you can either ignore this or not, but it's truly not looking good. Edited June 22, 2011 by McKinleys Curse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 True, the media created this endless monster ...of which will never end! Relocation scare is an infinite stigma attatched to ANY professional team in Buffalo! The only way to deal with this is... Understand it for what it is... DRINK... PARTY... & GO BILLS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloWest Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) Great post except for one thing. How in God's name do you quantify that fans in San Diego are ten times more concerned about the Chargers moving to LA than Bills fans? That's insane! For one, I've been to a Bills game in San Diego when the Chargers were very good (2005) and I can assure you, judging by the fervor of the fans in attendance, that they are about one-tenth as passionate football fans as are Bills fans. More importantly, in my job I speak with financial advisors all over the country and just within the last day, I've asked two guys from San Diego how concerned they were about the Chargers potentially moving to LA and they both said the same thing- eh, it's only an hour and a half away, they'd still represent SoCal, they'd still be the Chargers, not the end of the world, etc. Not to mention, that is where they were originally based! Not to insinuate that that is representative of every Chargers fan, but still- you wouldn't find one Bills fan that would EVER say such a thing about the possibility of the Bills leaving WNY. Again, I respect your post, but it is difficult for me to take it seriously after that comment. No hard feelings, just telling it like it is. peace, Metz I agree that Chargers fans are not as rabid as Bills fans for the most part. They have their die hards for sure. I dont think relocation is as big of a deal to Chargers fans and San Diego in general as it is to Bills fans (many who dont even live in Buffalo anymore). Not sure why Buffalo cares so much. I think it is an identity thing. Even if you live in Denver now, somehow Buffalo is still home in a way. I think Buffalo people who live in Buffalo and in Colorado, California etc are like a family or fraternity or alumni association somehow. Together we stand, with an us against the world attitude. Buffalo people are tough! ....My wife is from San Diego-she sort of summed it up that way to me. She is amazed by the bond I have with the friends I grew up with, because it isnt the same here. That sort of thing doesnt exist as much. Edited June 22, 2011 by BuffaloWest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Great post except for one thing. How in God's name do you quantify that fans in San Diego are ten times more concerned about the Chargers moving to LA than Bills fans? That's insane! For one, I've been to a Bills game in San Diego when the Chargers were very good (2005) and I can assure you, judging by the fervor of the fans in attendance, that they are about one-tenth as passionate football fans as are Bills fans. More importantly, in my job I speak with financial advisors all over the country and just within the last day, I've asked two guys from San Diego how concerned they were about the Chargers potentially moving to LA and they both said the same thing- eh, it's only an hour and a half away, they'd still represent SoCal, they'd still be the Chargers, not the end of the world, etc. Not to mention, that is where they were originally based! Not to insinuate that that is representative of every Chargers fan, but still- you wouldn't find one Bills fan that would EVER say such a thing about the possibility of the Bills leaving WNY. Again, I respect your post, but it is difficult for me to take it seriously after that comment. No hard feelings, just telling it like it is. peace, Metz Buffal West is right. I'm in L.A. Charger fans that I know are nervous. They want them in Diego even though they live in L.A. And NOBODY mentions the Bills out here. The talk is the Chargers, Vikings, Raiders, Rams for the most part. Sometimes Jacksonville is thrown in. Nobody out here talks about the Bills moving and IN FACT, about six months ago, Sam Farmer, LA Times NFL reporter talked about teams he thought would move. He mentioned Chargers, Raiders as most likely. He thought Viking would wind up getting a stadium and the Bills would be too hard to move based on their history and NY State having influential politicians that would raise hell and make it too ugly. He won't talk about it, but I believe Mr. Wilson definitely has a plan. No question in mind. He's a business man. He could have moved the team years ago if that were his plan. He knows his legacy is tied up in the Bills. The league knows how many Hall of Famers the Bills have. The league knows how big a region the Southern Ontario/WNY market is. Bills regionalizing was a good plan and one the league supports for a reason. Folks worry if you will, but really there is a very good chance the Bills stay right where they are. These media dudes throw bombs to get you all talking. And it works every time. Stop feeding into it. Edited June 23, 2011 by purple haze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 There is no reason, IMO, to believe for one second that Ralph Wilson would spend his entire adult life keeping the team in Buffalo, and saying and doing everything he has said and done for 50+ years, and then, after all that, just let the team go and let his legacy be that he let the team leave. No chance of that, regardless of whether you think he is all about money (which he is not). Ralph desperately wants the Bills to stay in Buffalo after he passes, and he wants his family to get the best deal and most money they can under that scenario, and I will bet anyone here that there is a specific plan in place to all but ensure that happens. It's possible some billionaire would outbid a local entity by 200 million or so and steal the team away but that is a highly unlikely scenario. Ralph very much cares about keeping the team in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Kelly I want you to be correct so badly. Ralph's family is going to be Rich or RICH. Either way I believe his family will be ok. It would be nice if he told the fans that the team will be staying in Buffalo for sure. If he wants his legacy to be remembered in a good light then he already knows what he's doing. It's in the works and we are just not privy to the details for some reason. I will gladly eat crow and ask for seconds if Ralph has a secret plan of keeping the Bills in Buffalo. I will start my own food network dedicated to crow. As long as Buffalo stays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Folks... Understand a few things here about the chatter regarding The Bills moving to L.A., Toronto, Small Market teams like Buffalo being screwed with new CBA, etc. I work in sports media. These guys are simply , and will admit it off the mic, looking to stir the pot, and create controversy (especially now that there is so little news coming out of the NFL). L.A. getting a team has been the only buzz to report on. I understand how nervous everyone has been about the Bills leaving. It is BS that the team wont put some of the fears to rest, it is not fair to the loyal fans. It would be the right thing to do to have someone at One Bills Drive and say-"Folks, we are committed to doing everything in our power to keep this team here in Buffalo long term and we are working on it every day". Is that asking for too much? For whatever reason -They wont do it. Let's hope it is for the right reasons and not selfish, self serving ones. If Ralph has a plan and the team stays-You erect a bronze statue of him at Delaware Circle. If he simply sells the team when he dies with no care as to where they end up-He is burned in effigy every day for one hundred years-because he absolutely screwed Buffalo. In other words-There are things that can and should be done to keep the team in Buffalo-We can only hope that they are being done behind the scenes....I believe that they are. People in San Diego are just as concerned, if not moreso, that their team-The Chargers are moving to L.A. You think people are nervous in Buffalo, multiply it by 10X here. The Buffalo Bills are mentioned here-It is a hypothetical conversation with Florio...The host who mentions this-Off air-told me this morning-He only does it for controversy purposes, and really has no clue what is really going to happen, but loves to rattle people's cages and start a buzz... Florio keeps saying he believes that since Buffalo isnt mentioned as the team targeted for relocation-It means they are THE team-It is BS guys. Florio doenst know. No one other than Wilson and a handful of other people know what is going to happen, and if I had to bet on it-I think Wilson has a plan-stays true to the town that built his empire, does not want his name sullied by leaving The Bils and their fans out to dry after he dies, and one last thing-You just get the feeling that he would love to give the middle finger to Jerry Jones, Kraft etc from The grave- I have said, and continue to say that the team stays in WNY as The Buffalo Bills. After listening to this, one might believe that San Diego is now in a better position to remain in San Diego because of the new CBA cap expenditure theory and that Buffalo is screwed because we have no corporate support. San Diego doenst have any big corporations other than Qualcomm and some defense contractors-It isnt some big corporate town that fills up luxury boxes at will. They barely sell out here and the team has been good for 10 years, not to mention-There is NO WAY that the Chargers are getting a new stadium. The city and the state are broke...Im telling you- All this media stuff is BS... http://www.xx1090sandiego.com/pages/audiovault09 Look under 6/22 Mike Florio Link I believe you are right and pray the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I agree that many in the media are trying to attract attention, but I am afraid that this new collective bargaining agreement will kill many small market teams. The price floor is expected to be a lot higher and the players are still going to receive a huge cut of the pie. Pat Kirwain theorized on his radio show that several teams will probably have to relocate at some time in the near future. I hope he is wrong, but there is reason to be concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richNjoisy Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I agree that many in the media are trying to attract attention, but I am afraid that this new collective bargaining agreement will kill many small market teams. The price floor is expected to be a lot higher and the players are still going to receive a huge cut of the pie. Pat Kirwain theorized on his radio show that several teams will probably have to relocate at some time in the near future. I hope he is wrong, but there is reason to be concerned. Remember, however, this is not a done deal yet. One has to believe at least some (enough, meaning > 8) of the owners understand that one reason the NFL is so incredibly successful is because of its NATIONAL draw. The NFL is a National U.S. sport. Betting on the game is ridiculously high. There is no doubt that the Super Bowl is a national holiday. The players do not care AT ALL about how the owners split up their 52% so who gets what on the Owners side of it will be decided by 23+ of the 32 owners. Obviously, the small market teams are going to push for some money to be pushed towards them that is not , at the current time, considered "shared" (the main money maker being the luxury boxes). It can be argued, and I agree with it, that the Browns, Bills, Packers, Vikings, Falcons, Rams, Chargers etc etc MAKE the NFL nationally loved , popular, and highly profitable. A compromise amongst the owners seems to me more likely than small market teams not getting their numbers up to the required 9 owners to force enough revenue sharing to keep MOST teams right where they are as long as they want to stay where they are. I really agree with the premise of the original post in this Thread - I think the media is making more of this threat then truly exists. I think if teams move it will be because they are not profitable under the old system let alone any new one. And remember, Jim Kelly has said REPEATEDLY that money is not the issue when the Bills finally go up for sale. And, if money is not the issue, there is no issue. The Bills stay put. RnJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 it's the media that stirs the pot? uhhh, right. over the past three months, this board has featured eleventeen dozen threads in regards to the status of the team in Buffalo. these threads have popped up whether there's been a report or not, whether some one has expressed interest in buying the Bills, whether Terry Pegula sneezed, whether the sky was blue, green or yellow. i also happen to work in the media and on or off the record, in a bar, in a car, with or without green eggs or ham: i do not raise this topic to stir the pot. i will also say this: there is a chance the Buffalo Bills could relocate. there is is a chance they won't. this thing is far from certain. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 it's the media that stirs the pot? uhhh, right. over the past three months, this board has featured eleventeen dozen threads in regards to the status of the team in Buffalo. these threads have popped up whether there's been a report or not, whether some one has expressed interest in buying the Bills, whether Terry Pegula sneezed, whether the sky was blue, green or yellow. i also happen to work in the media and on or off the record, in a bar, in a car, with or without green eggs or ham: i do not raise this topic to stir the pot. i will also say this: there is a chance the Buffalo Bills could relocate. there is is a chance they won't. this thing is far from certain. jw This is a strange time for you to post. Bars open early or really late to close? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Here is the other thing to give comfort to Buffalo Bills fans. Though the city has fallen on hard times as we all know. Many of us ex-pats who left to find work are all around the country follow the Bills and Sabres religiously. I watch as many games as possible and usually go back to Buffalo each year and attend a game or two. If you go to any major city around this country and a few around the world you can find a Bills bar to watch the games. NYC has two near each other that often require reservations. The DC area has at least one in northern, VA and I have heard of one in MD. The fans both in the city and around the nation are among the most loyal in the league and though spread nationwide, this loyalty extend even when are not doing well. If the NFL is not aware of this they are not doing their job as a business and I can't believe Goodell doesn't know. However, if someone in the corporation of the NFL is not, a warning to you, watch the national ratings for the moved Bills drop fast. The new owners will become aware quickly that they were sold an empty bag of goods. Both the Bills and the NFL will lose a loyal fan in me and many others. Edited June 23, 2011 by yellowlinesandarmadillos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 it's the media that stirs the pot? uhhh, right. over the past three months, this board has featured eleventeen dozen threads in regards to the status of the team in Buffalo. these threads have popped up whether there's been a report or not, whether some one has expressed interest in buying the Bills, whether Terry Pegula sneezed, whether the sky was blue, green or yellow. i also happen to work in the media and on or off the record, in a bar, in a car, with or without green eggs or ham: i do not raise this topic to stir the pot. i will also say this: there is a chance the Buffalo Bills could relocate. there is is a chance they won't. this thing is far from certain. jw jw, When you have a reclusive 92 yr old owner who refuses to respond to inquiries regarding his plans for the franchise after his passing then there shouldn't be any surprise about the intense interest in the near and long term viability of the franchise in western NY. I think that the current CBA negotiations have heightened the concern over franchise viability because of the nature of the market and how it relates to revenue potential. Can you imagine if there were reports that Ralph has a cold how the intensity of the issue will rise even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) This is a strange time for you to post. Bars open early or really late to close? day off and just got back from a workshop in atlanta last night. thought i'd view the board to see if i've missed anything when saw this thread. turns out, i haven't missed anything. jw jw, When you have a reclusive 92 yr old owner who refuses to respond to inquiries regarding his plans for the franchise after his passing then there shouldn't be any surprise about the intense interest in the near and long term viability of the franchise in western NY. I think that the current CBA negotiations have heightened the concern over franchise viability because of the nature of the market and how it relates to revenue potential. Can you imagine if there were reports that Ralph has a cold how the intensity of the issue will rise even more? that part's clear, John. my post specifically was in response on the OP's notion that we in the sports media simply like to stir the pot. there's enough pot-stirrers out in Bills nation without us in the business having to pick up a ladle. jw Edited June 23, 2011 by john wawrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Just thinking that it might rain on opening day. Untill something real happens, every thing is just talk and talk is on the cheep these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 day off and just got back from a workshop in atlanta last night. thought i'd view the board to see if i've missed anything when saw this thread. turns out, i haven't missed anything. jw that part's clear, John. my post specifically was in response on the OP's notion that we in the sports media simply like to stir the pot. there's enough pot-stirrers out in Bills nation without us in the business having to pick up a ladle. jw http://www.wgr550.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=5355897 jw, There was a very intriguing interview on the Howard Simon show with Russ Brandon and I believe Berthold. After listening to the interview I got a sense that there is a greater degree of franchise viability if a more regional approach is successfully managed. With the advent of sports talk radio and proliferating blogs there are plenty of noisey cooks stirring the boiling pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) it's the media that stirs the pot? uhhh, right. over the past three months, this board has featured eleventeen dozen threads in regards to the status of the team in Buffalo. these threads have popped up whether there's been a report or not, whether some one has expressed interest in buying the Bills, whether Terry Pegula sneezed, whether the sky was blue, green or yellow. i also happen to work in the media and on or off the record, in a bar, in a car, with or without green eggs or ham: i do not raise this topic to stir the pot. i will also say this: there is a chance the Buffalo Bills could relocate. there is is a chance they won't. this thing is far from certain. jw Yeah Wawrow, the media stirs the pot. Maybe you don't. But Mike Florio was stirring the pot. "Bloggers" were stirring the pot. Sullivan was stirring the pot. They don't have any idea what's going on and yet they go to the most somber, doomsday scenario possible. Why? Because it causes hits on their websites, gets nervous fans creating talk and that's good for ad money. Bills could leave. But reading the tea leaves I would say it's more likely they stay. And I do believe Mr. Wilson has a plan. Even if the Bills went to the highest bidder (which I don't believe will be the case), why does everyone assume there is nobody, who would keep the team in WNY, who can win the bid? Edited June 23, 2011 by purple haze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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