Only Ralph gains from gains being in Toronto

[billsfreak]

Ralph really sold out his team, his fanbase, the players and any team sponsors by pocketing nearly 80 million dollars to play 3 preseason and 5 regular season games in Toronto. In all three regular season games so far, the Bills were the visiting team, with the exception of the markings on the field. All three games the other team had more fans than the Bills did in one of their supposedly eight "home" games. We only have 7 home games every year compared to every other team in the league having 8 (with the rare exception of a team playing in England or wherever Goodell sends them). The players don't like it, Whitner pretty much said they probably win today if they were in Buffalo, as there was no crowd noise to interfere with Cutler calling plays. This team is already at a disadvantage with the NFL's worst and cheapest owner, the worst and most inexpensive front office, a coaching staff that was purchased at the Dollar Tree store, and a small and relatively less rich economy, and Ralph throws one more obstacle for the team to overcome. I don't see where he has put any of the millions he got for this deal anywhere but his wallet, he sure doesn't spend it on the team or oganization. It shows you what the majority of us have always known, Ralph puts the almighty dollar way above being a successful franchise, which has in turn led to this team being the laughing stock of the NFL.

[birdog1960]

it's deals like this that put him in the hall of fame..he was doubly successful in this one, fleecing rogers and all bills fans simultaneously. well done, wilson. you should be very proud

[cossack]

Short sighted post. Bashing Ralph is popular, bashing Toronto is popular, combining the two is pure genius right? Not exactly.

 

We didn't lose because the game was in Toronto, we lost because we're not that good. Period.

 

Now, think of the numbers and what they mean to the Bills. I've posted this before after the preseason game vs Cincy, here it is again:

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What everyone seems to be missing right now but will become gradually more obvious as this deal enters its final two years is that this whole venture was excellent at least for the short to medium term viability of the Bills in BUFFALO.

 

Regardless of whether the Rogers Center is half empty and Rogers is losing money hand over fist, the Bills are still getting paid the same. It's a fixed price per game agreement.

 

Don't forget that the Bills are getting an estimated $9.75 Million per game, INCLUDING pre-season games. A REGULAR season game at the Ralph nets the Bills just under 5 million dollars, likely much less during the pre-season.

 

"The $9.75 million figure for the average Bills game in Toronto represents a windfall profit for the team, or roughly twice what the Bills can gross even from a sold-out game.

 

The team can realize about $3.8 million in gross ticket sales for an average home sellout in Orchard Park; additional game-day revenue increases that to about $5 million."

 

(source: Rogers Center)

 

I know there are a lot of Russ Brandon haters out there and he was terrible in a GM role, but this is an absolute slam dunk and he robbed Rogers silly. This ensure a steady stream of additional revenues that can only help stabilize the Bills' financial situation in the immediate term. in 4 games in Toronto (half of which are wasted pre-season games at the Ralph) you can essentially generate direct revenue equal to a full season in Buffalo. In other words, it represents a 20% increase in revenue just for holding two games in Toronto this year, and this does not account for the savings associated with not having to run the stadium (lights, staff, etc) on game day.

 

Yea, as season ticket holders we lose one regular season game for a few years. Not a bad deal to help ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo. If only it wasn't so obvious that Rogers was hemorrhaging money, this could go on for a bit longer.......

 

The real beauty in this lies in the unpredictable outcome that followed:

 

The over inflated prices set by Rogers to make up for the price they paid (who thought that, as usual, they were the only show in town when 20+K Canadians happily make the drive to Buffalo every game day), ensure that the stands are less than full and in return Toronto looks like a poor choice for an NFL team, and therefore a poor location to move the Bills to. Gone will be the talks of moving the Bills to Toronto.

[birdog1960]

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What everyone seems to be missing right now but will become gradually more obvious as this deal enters its final two years is that this whole venture was excellent at least for the short to medium term viability of the Bills in BUFFALO.

 

Regardless of whether the Rogers Center is half empty and Rogers is losing money hand over fist, the Bills are still getting paid the same. It's a fixed price per game agreement.

 

Don't forget that the Bills are getting an estimated $9.75 Million per game, INCLUDING pre-season games. A REGULAR season game at the Ralph nets the Bills just under 5 million dollars, likely much less during the pre-season.

 

"The $9.75 million figure for the average Bills game in Toronto represents a windfall profit for the team, or roughly twice what the Bills can gross even from a sold-out game.

 

The team can realize about $3.8 million in gross ticket sales for an average home sellout in Orchard Park; additional game-day revenue increases that to about $5 million."

 

(source: Rogers Center)

 

I know there are a lot of Russ Brandon haters out there and he was terrible in a GM role, but this is an absolute slam dunk and he robbed Rogers silly. This ensure a steady stream of additional revenues that can only help stabilize the Bills' financial situation in the immediate term. in 4 games in Toronto (half of which are wasted pre-season games at the Ralph) you can essentially generate direct revenue equal to a full season in Buffalo. In other words, it represents a 20% increase in revenue just for holding two games in Toronto this year, and this does not account for the savings associated with not having to run the stadium (lights, staff, etc) on game day.

 

Yea, as season ticket holders we lose one regular season game for a few years. Not a bad deal to help ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo. If only it wasn't so obvious that Rogers was hemorrhaging money, this could go on for a bit longer.......

 

The real beauty in this lies in the unpredictable outcome that followed:

 

The over inflated prices set by Rogers to make up for the price they paid (who thought that, as usual, they were the only show in town when 20+K Canadians happily make the drive to Buffalo every game day), ensure that the stands are less than full and in return Toronto looks like a poor choice for an NFL team, and therefore a poor location to move the Bills to. Gone will be the talks of moving the Bills to Toronto.

yup, pure genius...but shouldn't winning games at least be a collateral goal?

Edited November 8, 2010 by birdog1960

[Doc]

And the Rogers group wants to bring more games to Toronto. I certainly wouldn't have expected that.

[BillsVet]

Give the Canadian press credit for discussing this subject:

 

Canoe on Wilson article

 

It's a hallmark of RW's teams that they be business first, second, and third. Winning is optional so long as a healthy profit is generated. Of course he and the others must speak publicly about winning, but is there a veritable commitment to winning on the field? Not really, but we're inundated with why the contract with Rogers was necessary and RW is on record as saying the infusion of cash won't go toward player salaries. No surprise there.

 

So the team cuts player salaries 25M from 2010 to 2009, they continue pocketing Rogers' 9.75M per game, and the team is 0-8? Yeah, I'd say RW is winning but not the way fans want. Perhaps that's how they want it anyway.

Edited November 8, 2010 by BillsVet

[Mr. WEO]

Short sighted post. Bashing Ralph is popular, bashing Toronto is popular, combining the two is pure genius right? Not exactly.

 

We didn't lose because the game was in Toronto, we lost because we're not that good. Period.

 

Now, think of the numbers and what they mean to the Bills. I've posted this before after the preseason game vs Cincy, here it is again:

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What everyone seems to be missing right now but will become gradually more obvious as this deal enters its final two years is that this whole venture was excellent at least for the short to medium term viability of the Bills in BUFFALO.

 

Regardless of whether the Rogers Center is half empty and Rogers is losing money hand over fist, the Bills are still getting paid the same. It's a fixed price per game agreement.

 

Don't forget that the Bills are getting an estimated $9.75 Million per game, INCLUDING pre-season games. A REGULAR season game at the Ralph nets the Bills just under 5 million dollars, likely much less during the pre-season.

 

"The $9.75 million figure for the average Bills game in Toronto represents a windfall profit for the team, or roughly twice what the Bills can gross even from a sold-out game.

 

The team can realize about $3.8 million in gross ticket sales for an average home sellout in Orchard Park; additional game-day revenue increases that to about $5 million."

 

(source: Rogers Center)

 

I know there are a lot of Russ Brandon haters out there and he was terrible in a GM role, but this is an absolute slam dunk and he robbed Rogers silly. This ensure a steady stream of additional revenues that can only help stabilize the Bills' financial situation in the immediate term. in 4 games in Toronto (half of which are wasted pre-season games at the Ralph) you can essentially generate direct revenue equal to a full season in Buffalo. In other words, it represents a 20% increase in revenue just for holding two games in Toronto this year, and this does not account for the savings associated with not having to run the stadium (lights, staff, etc) on game day.

 

Yea, as season ticket holders we lose one regular season game for a few years. Not a bad deal to help ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo. If only it wasn't so obvious that Rogers was hemorrhaging money, this could go on for a bit longer.......

 

The real beauty in this lies in the unpredictable outcome that followed:

 

The over inflated prices set by Rogers to make up for the price they paid (who thought that, as usual, they were the only show in town when 20+K Canadians happily make the drive to Buffalo every game day), ensure that the stands are less than full and in return Toronto looks like a poor choice for an NFL team, and therefore a poor location to move the Bills to. Gone will be the talks of moving the Bills to Toronto.

This is total BS. It is clear that that $78 million did nothing to change the viability of the Bills in Buffalo in the short, medium or long term. This nonsense gets repeated over and over, yet there is no logic to it. The money went into Ralph's pocket. The team lost yet another game in that lame and disinterested venue. Canadians were already going to a sold out Ralph Wilson Stadium for years---why sell out the Americans, Ralph?

 

How can anyone believe there is any good to Wilson whoring out a once proud franchise?

[billsfreak]

And the Rogers group wants to bring more games to Toronto. I certainly wouldn't have expected that.

The ultimate goal of that group is to bring the team and all of the games to Toronto. There are substantial rumors that they are discussing at least doubling the number of games in Toronto if not nearly a 50/50 split. Using this series to keep the Bills in Buffalo was just a lame ass excuse by Ralph to fatten his wallet.

 

Short sighted post. Bashing Ralph is popular, bashing Toronto is popular, combining the two is pure genius right? Not exactly.

 

We didn't lose because the game was in Toronto, we lost because we're not that good. Period.

 

Now, think of the numbers and what they mean to the Bills. I've posted this before after the preseason game vs Cincy, here it is again:

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What everyone seems to be missing right now but will become gradually more obvious as this deal enters its final two years is that this whole venture was excellent at least for the short to medium term viability of the Bills in BUFFALO.

 

Regardless of whether the Rogers Center is half empty and Rogers is losing money hand over fist, the Bills are still getting paid the same. It's a fixed price per game agreement.

 

Don't forget that the Bills are getting an estimated $9.75 Million per game, INCLUDING pre-season games. A REGULAR season game at the Ralph nets the Bills just under 5 million dollars, likely much less during the pre-season.

 

"The $9.75 million figure for the average Bills game in Toronto represents a windfall profit for the team, or roughly twice what the Bills can gross even from a sold-out game.

 

The team can realize about $3.8 million in gross ticket sales for an average home sellout in Orchard Park; additional game-day revenue increases that to about $5 million."

 

(source: Rogers Center)

 

I know there are a lot of Russ Brandon haters out there and he was terrible in a GM role, but this is an absolute slam dunk and he robbed Rogers silly. This ensure a steady stream of additional revenues that can only help stabilize the Bills' financial situation in the immediate term. in 4 games in Toronto (half of which are wasted pre-season games at the Ralph) you can essentially generate direct revenue equal to a full season in Buffalo. In other words, it represents a 20% increase in revenue just for holding two games in Toronto this year, and this does not account for the savings associated with not having to run the stadium (lights, staff, etc) on game day.

 

Yea, as season ticket holders we lose one regular season game for a few years. Not a bad deal to help ensure the Bills stay in Buffalo. If only it wasn't so obvious that Rogers was hemorrhaging money, this could go on for a bit longer.......

 

The real beauty in this lies in the unpredictable outcome that followed:

 

The over inflated prices set by Rogers to make up for the price they paid (who thought that, as usual, they were the only show in town when 20+K Canadians happily make the drive to Buffalo every game day), ensure that the stands are less than full and in return Toronto looks like a poor choice for an NFL team, and therefore a poor location to move the Bills to. Gone will be the talks of moving the Bills to Toronto.

Mine was a short sighted post? Really? If you really believe what you post, and not that this is only to put money in Ralphs pocket, or even step one to move even more games if not all of them to Toronto, than you personally live in a short sighted world.

[birdog1960]

Give the Canadian press credit for discussing this subject:

 

Canoe on Wilson article

 

 

it's comforting to know that wilson had a nice meal in toronto. how many games has he attended in buffalo this year. why would this game be apriority for him to attend?

[jad1]

it's comforting to know that wilson had a nice meal in toronto. how many games has he attended in buffalo this year. why would this game be apriority for him to attend?

 

He showed up to this game to pick up the game check. Tomorrow he goes to his bank in Detroit.

[jr1]

9 road games is playing with 1 hand tied behind the players' backs. Ralph didn't use the Toronto money to bring in Gruden or any other coach that would make players want to come here

[akm0404]

Ralph Wilson: The only owner in the NFL that will sell competitive advantage in actual regular season games for cash money.

Edited November 8, 2010 by akm0404

[SoggyHog]

What Ralph doesn't understand is that he would make more money OVERALL if he put a winning product on the field. End of discussion!

[Wilson's Ears]

What Ralph doesn't understand is that he would make more money OVERALL if he put a winning product on the field. End of discussion!

 

 

i totally agree... he had the chance to continue what polian built in the 90's but decided to save a few bucks by firing him... wilson is undeniably the root cause of this franchises failure. when, not if, this teams moves bills fans will have the "almighty" ralph to blame. this toronto series is a total joke and a smokescreen to eventually move the bills. if you can't see it you're kidding yourself. will never understand how this dumb ass got elected into the hall of fame.

[Mr. WEO]

Give the Canadian press credit for discussing this subject:

 

Canoe on Wilson article

 

It's a hallmark of RW's teams that they be business first, second, and third. Winning is optional so long as a healthy profit is generated. Of course he and the others must speak publicly about winning, but is there a veritable commitment to winning on the field? Not really, but we're inundated with why the contract with Rogers was necessary and RW is on record as saying the infusion of cash won't go toward player salaries. No surprise there.

 

So the team cuts player salaries 25M from 2010 to 2009, they continue pocketing Rogers' 9.75M per game, and the team is 0-8? Yeah, I'd say RW is winning but not the way fans want. Perhaps that's how they want it anyway.

Ralph has no shame. How could he do this? 3 seasons in, how does he now justify it?

[dwight in philly]

i am in total agreement with fans on here concerning ralph's money grab . it sickens me every time i am watching these fiascos in toronto . say what you want about jerry sullivan, but his article today sums up my feelings about the game yesterday, and what my thoughts were during the game. the competitive edge that the team loses every time it goes up there frosts my a$$. we have discussed ralph on here ad infinitum, but this really tips the scales for me, i hate what he has done to the loyal fan base in WNY. long term viability be damned!, it is total bullsh-t. this team can survive in WNY without the toronto series. do i have any facts or figures to back that premise?, no, but it is pure conjecture to believe otherwise.

[JohnC]

This is total BS. It is clear that that $78 million did nothing to change the viability of the Bills in Buffalo in the short, medium or long term. This nonsense gets repeated over and over, yet there is no logic to it. The money went into Ralph's pocket. The team lost yet another game in that lame and disinterested venue. Canadians were already going to a sold out Ralph Wilson Stadium for years---why sell out the Americans, Ralph?

 

How can anyone believe there is any good to Wilson whoring out a once proud franchise?

 

I heartily agree with you. The owner pocketed the Toronto heist money ($78 M) and cut the payroll of the team even more. How does that increase the viability of the team? What I find confounding is that people believe such propaganda. It goes beyond being gullible; it is outright stupid.

 

When Al Davis sold some of the shares of his ownership a couple of years ago he used a large chunk of the proceeds to add to the team payroll. Was the money smartly spent? Probably not. But at least he is trying to compete. Ralph Wilson could care less. He is not even bothering to go through the charade of seriously trying to get better.

 

The standard response to those who bring up the fraudulent nature of the owner's seriousness in competing and his primary interest in mazimizing the bottom line at the expense of being competitive is to be vilified.

 

What is really absurd is not how bad the Bills are and for how long they have been bad as much as there is still a large percentage of people who actually believe that this obnoxious owner has the best interest of the fans and region.

[The Senator]

The ultimate goal of that group is to bring the team and all of the games to Toronto. There are substantial rumors that they are discussing at least doubling the number of games in Toronto if not nearly a 50/50 split. Using this series to keep the Bills in Buffalo was just a lame ass excuse by Ralph to fatten his wallet.

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

Mine was a short sighted post? Really? If you really believe what you post, and not that this is only to put money in Ralphs pocket, or even step one to move even more games if not all of them to Toronto, than you personally live in a short sighted world.

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[Mularkey]

If you put a winning product out there year in and year out, maybe a year or two below .500 and revenue is not an issue (not a huge issue now in my opinion). Not only would you sell out most if not all games as the Bills already do but corporate sponsors would jump on board. Why, because it would be a hot ticket, in demand and the buzz would be enough to get those luxury boxes sold. Also, sell the freakin' naming rights for the stadium. Ralph has to pay more up front (to the front office and personnel)to get it back later. Spend money to make money. The last 10+ years of crap on the field has made corporations stay away from luxury suites and the Bills altogether. I know the economy in Western NY is terrible, but enough corporations would come out of the woodwork if the Bills were perennial contenders. It starts with Ralph, unfortunately he is too set in his ways to turn this around before he passes and once that happens, everything changes due to debt load of a new owner. Only then can I begin to think the Bills may not be sustainable in Buffalo.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Mularkey

[billsfreak]

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

 

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

You are living in a fantasy world. Of course businessmen have the right to profit from their investments, and if Ralph made this team better, he stil would be profiting, you can't lose money owning a team in the NFL. The equivalent of Ralph would be if Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, just decided to pocket all his money and not improve any of his computer programs/games, would that be a good example of a businessman running his company good? I hardly doubt so. Any proficiently run business reinvests some of their earnings back into the company, to make the company better, Ralph doesn't even dream about doing that. He is a money hungry old coot who has the best interest of his team, organization, the fans and WNY so far down on his list, that it might not as well even be there at all. You can go ahead and keep believing the BS tha that you do about the great Mr. Wilson and his genious plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo, I will stay with the other 99% of Bills fans and believe the obvious truth.

[birdog1960]

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

 

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

i don't see anyone arguing that wilson is a master at making money but can't profit be made while producing and selling a decent product? isn't this what ethical businessmen strive for? i think that if most business owners, including myself, sold an inferior product for years and were unsuccesful at improving it, we would get out of the business and let someone else have a go, not dilute it further by expanding regionally to produce a more inferior product while profitting more.

Edited November 8, 2010 by birdog1960

[Mr. WEO]

The Bills will be playing the majority (minimally 7) of their home games in WNY long after Rogers Stadium and the Rogers Communications empire lies in crumbled ruins. Ralph Wilson assured that when he firmly staked out Toronto and Southern Ontario as a market owned by the Buffalo franchise.

 

 

Ridiculously short-sighted, and exceeded in total ignorance only by WEO's post - but his ignorance is usually hard to beat, do don't get too down on yourself!

 

Did Ralph profit from the Toronto deal? Of course he did. He also profited tremendously from $25,000 he invested in a little something called the American Football League and the Buffalo Bills, way back in 1959. Did that bring any benefit to Buffalo, or was that also just something to line Ralph's pockets?

 

Here's a little scoop for you - businessmen have a right to profit from their investments. What would YOU do if some idiot from Toronto came to you and said, "Here's $80 million - why don't you agree to play regular-season 5 games up here - one each season - for the next five years?"

 

The pure Ralph Wilson genius of it all is that, by making Toronto a 'second home field' for the Bills, Toronto is now effectively established as the Bills home turf and anyone who would even think about trying to establish a rival NFL franchise there would have to deal with the Bills, and likely be faced with a prohibitive annuity/perpetuity for infringing on the Bills' market. (Think Baltimore Colts paying Washington Redskins $150K back in 1950, and imagine the value of that money today, along with the magnitude of value explosion that the NFL has experienced since 60 years ago, then try to come up with an appropriate dollar-amount based on today's value - it would be astronomical!)

 

Ralph Wilson's ownership has been great for Buffalo, despite some rough losing cycles that every team goes through on a regular basis. You and others can continue to ignorantly opine otherwise but - believe me - were it not for Ralph, this team would have been gone from Western New York DECADES ago!!!

No one is denying that Ralph is free to make a nice penny---in fact most here are arguing that he did just that, and nothing else with this deal. That's kind of what we are talking about here, Senator. Somehow this escaped you--as has the fact that Ralph has stayed right here because he makes such a nice return on his "investment" (which has been...essentially nothing, for decades). That's a business deal that he could not replicate in another town. Free money.

 

Anyway, if the only Canadian suitor for an NFL team goes to ruin, cetainly there won't be another moneyed interest in Toronto that would try to succeed where Rogers failed. And, since the deal with the Bills runs out soon, how, exactly, did Ralph establish Toronto as a "second home turf"? It's a partially filled stadium with a few fans partial to the Bills. No doubt the League (and the other owners who suffer from Ralph's cries of financial difficulty) views this debacle as we do--as a simple money grab. The Canadians (no from Toronto, no doubt) who are Bills fans will likely prefer to come to the Ralph, as they always did.

 

The most amusing part to those who read your posts is that you pride yourself on your arguments, despite that they usually are based on few facts or hardly any logic.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Mr. WEO

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

I heartily agree with you. The owner pocketed the Toronto heist money ($78 M) and cut the payroll of the team even more. How does that increase the viability of the team? What I find confounding is that people believe such propaganda. It goes beyond being gullible; it is outright stupid.

 

When Al Davis sold some of the shares of his ownership a couple of years ago he used a large chunk of the proceeds to add to the team payroll. Was the money smartly spent? Probably not. But at least he is trying to compete. Ralph Wilson could care less. He is not even bothering to go through the charade of seriously trying to get better.

 

The standard response to those who bring up the fraudulent nature of the owner's seriousness in competing and his primary interest in mazimizing the bottom line at the expense of being competitive is to be vilified.

 

What is really absurd is not how bad the Bills are and for how long they have been bad as much as there is still a large percentage of people who actually believe that this obnoxious owner has the best interest of the fans and region.

 

[Bills(70)]

These are all nice points to make about Ralph Wilson, Toronto and the marriage of the two.

But what fans here in Buffalo are missing is the larger picture of the organization.

 

Buffalo has lost almost 62% of its overall regional population across 42 years of New York State regulations, high taxes, outsourcing and lack of vision at the policital and business leadership level.

 

This market needs a broader base, Toronto offers that. If the Bills move to Toronto and the team is supported by a city of roughly 4.6 million people as opposed to WNY at roughly 1.6 million, its only a part of the natural course of a business to do so. This isn't rocket science here.

 

No one can blame Ralph nor should they B word about him at all. Without Ralph Wilson, the Buffalo Bills don't exist.

 

Change is inevatible, you want to B word about possibly loosing a sports franchise in the region, go scream at your local and state political leaders.

Across the span of that 42 years they have created this mess, not Ralph.

[The Senator]

You are living in a fantasy world. Of course businessmen have the right to profit from their investments, and if Ralph made this team better, he stil would be profiting, you can't lose money owning a team in the NFL. The equivalent of Ralph would be if Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, just decided to pocket all his money and not improve any of his computer programs/games, would that be a good example of a businessman running his company good? I hardly doubt so. Any proficiently run business reinvests some of their earnings back into the company, to make the company better, Ralph doesn't even dream about doing that. He is a money hungry old coot who has the best interest of his team, organization, the fans and WNY so far down on his list, that it might not as well even be there at all. You can go ahead and keep believing the BS tha that you do about the great Mr. Wilson and his genious plan to keep the Bills in Buffalo, I will stay with the other 99% of Bills fans and believe the obvious truth.

"99%???" :w00t: "OBVIOUS TRUTH?????" :w00t: :w00t:

 

Show me your data, please.

 

(Perhaps you're in agreement with the other 99% of WGR listeners, but most Bills fans are much smarter than you.)

 

 

"Money hungry old coot?" Well, who doesn't like money - or want more of it - but, again, you disply nothing but ignorance with that and your other statements.

 

Wilson gives back plenty - and, as a % of his net-worth, plenty more than you...

 

Ralph Wilson Medical Research Foundation - Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Roswell Park Cancer Institute, Wayne State University, Miami Project to Cure Paralysis/University of Miami (go tell Nick Buoniconti or Kevin Everett what a miserly old coot Ralph Wilson is - but wear a face guard when you do)

 

Mary and Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Counseling Center - hospice care, family grief-counseling, child palliative-care

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. School of Education - St. John Fisher College

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Jefferson Scholarship - University of Virginia

 

(let me know if you'd like a longer list)

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[birdog1960]

"99%???" :w00t: "OBVIOUS TRUTH?????" :w00t: :w00t:

 

Show me your data, please.

 

(Perhaps you're in agreement with the other 99% of WGR listeners, but most Bills fans are much smarter than you.)

 

 

"Money hungry old coot?" Well, who doesn't like money - or want more of it - but, again, you disply nothing but ignorance with that and your other statements.

 

Wilson gives back plenty - and, as a % of his net-worth, plenty more than you...

 

Ralph Wilson Medical Research Foundation - Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, Roswell Park Cancer Institute, Wayne State University, Miami Project to Cure Paralysis/University of Miami (go tell Nick Buoniconti or Kevin Everett what a miserly old coot Ralph Wilson is - but wear a face guard when you do)

 

Mary and Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Counseling Center - hospice care, family grief-counseling, child palliative-care

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. School of Education - St. John Fisher College

 

Ralph C. Wilson, Jr. Jefferson Scholarship - University of Virginia

 

(let me know if you'd like a longer list)

yeah, i'd like a citation for the percentage of net worth given as charity. i'll bet there are many posters here who surpass him on that score. ever read that little story about the widow's mite?

Edited November 8, 2010 by birdog1960

[The Senator]

yeah, i'd like a percentage of net worth given as charity. i'll bet there are many posters here who surpass him on that score. ever read that little story about the widow's mite?

Not to take anything away from anyone's generosity or charitableness, but I sincerely doubt that.

 

Tell me - other than the Bills NFL franchise, which is not a liquid asset and can only be turned into $$$cash$$$ by selling or borrowing against it - how much do you think RW is worth?

 

(He's worth a lot, I know, but probably way less than you and others surmise or speculate.)

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[birdog1960]

Not to take anything away from anyone's generosity or charitableness, but I sincerely doubt that.

 

Tell me - other than the Bills NFL franchise - which is not a liquid asset and can only be turned into $$$cash$$$ by selling or borrowing against it - how much do you think RW is worth?

 

(He's worth a lot, I know, but probably way less than you and others surmise or speculate.)

why would you possibly exempt his franchise from his net worth? he could sell it anytime. it is redeemable. with that franchise, i expect his net worth is around $1 billion. many people tithe 15% to their church in charity and have very small net worths. 15% of a billion is a pretty big number ($150 million). is wilson giving this up yearly?

[Mr. WEO]

These are all nice points to make about Ralph Wilson, Toronto and the marriage of the two.

But what fans here in Buffalo are missing is the larger picture of the organization.

 

Buffalo has lost almost 62% of its overall regional population across 42 years of New York State regulations, high taxes, outsourcing and lack of vision at the policital and business leadership level.

 

This market needs a broader base, Toronto offers that. If the Bills move to Toronto and the team is supported by a city of roughly 4.6 million people as opposed to WNY at roughly 1.6 million, its only a part of the natural course of a business to do so. This isn't rocket science here.

 

No one can blame Ralph nor should they B word about him at all. Without Ralph Wilson, the Buffalo Bills don't exist.

 

Change is inevatible, you want to B word about possibly loosing a sports franchise in the region, go scream at your local and state political leaders.

Across the span of that 42 years they have created this mess, not Ralph.

What should we tell the politicians? Bring back Big Steel and Big Auto? Despite the Exodus, the Bills are a highly profitable team, right now. The Bills HAVE a base of Canadian fans. Toronto seems uninterested in this team. This isn't rocket science.

 

If the next owner was inheriting a winning franchise filled with player and coaching talent, he would not have to worry as much about how to fill the stadium down the road to pay his debts. Praising Wilson for bringing the Bills to Buffalo 5 decades ago (and enjoying risk-free monetary return since) is hardly a persuasive justification for this sell-out. Yet it seems to be the only argument these guys can make--no matter what the topic.

[The Senator]

why would you possibly exempt his franchise from his net worth? he could sell it anytime. it is redeemable. with that franchise, i expect his net worth is around $1 billion. many people tithe 15% to their church in charity and have very small net worths. 15% of a billion is a pretty big number ($150 million). is wilson giving this up yearly?

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW donate?" - but I think you're beyond rational thought on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

Edited November 8, 2010 by The Senator

[dave mcbride]

The Bills are 0-8 and won't make the playoffs for the eleventh straight season (in a league where 37.5 percent of the teams make it every year).

[birdog1960]

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW dontate?" - but I think you're beyond rational though on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

a primary residence is included in any valuation of net worth and requires selling or borrowing against for liquidation. business values are often included as well. you made the statement that wilson gives more based on net worth and then proceed to redefine net worth to suit your purpose. by any standard definition you're just plain wrong as you are about wilson.

[The Senator]

a primary residence is included in any valuation of net worth and requires selling or borrowing against for liquidation. business values are often included as well. you made the statement that wilson gives more based on net worth and then proceed to redefine net worth to suit your purpose. by any standard definition you're just plain wrong as you are about wilson.

You're absolutely correct. I misspoke, my apologies.

 

I meant to say that RW donates more as a percentage of income - not net worth. My bad.

 

Still think he's got most people on TSW - and certainly Billsfreak, the original poster/Wilson-basher - beat in that regard.

[Mr. WEO]

Because it's not a liquid asset that he can 'divvy up' without selling it or borrowing against it, knucklehead!

 

The Buffalo Bills NFL franchise is Ralph Wilson's primary business - how many people sell their business, and their source of income and livelihood - just so they can donate 15% of the sale price to their church?

 

A more accurate measurement - and more rational question - would be, 'How much as a % of INCOME does RW donate?" - but I think you're beyond rational thought on this issue.

 

I gave you a partial list of beneficiaries of Ralph's largess - if you want actual $$$ amounts donated, go do your own homework, lazy ass.

You are not so cleverly ignoring the tens of millions in profit his "company" nets him.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Fortunately, or not, these Toronto games are scheduled at a time when putting the team at a competitive disadvantage by trading home field advantage for revenue doesn't really matter. If it was a case of the team missing the playoff's by 1 game lost in Toronto I might get a little more excited about it.

 

I think the big loser here are Rogers, the Bills football team, and Bills fans that lose one home game. It seems highly unlikely the sponsor is recouping their investment here. If their objective it to bring the NFL to Toronto full time I can't see how this series is helping that cause. While you lose a lot of the atmosphere of a 'live' game watching on TV it just seems the place is deader than a morgue.

 

Whether or not these games 'help' keep the team in WNY is TBD but at this point it doesn't appear to be generating a lot of interest in the team north of the US border. Much of that I suspect has to do with 0-8. How can you blame them?

 

That all said, I find it impossible to disagree with posters that have expressed their frustration with ownerships lack of commitment to winning and there does not appear to be any plan in place to plow the proceeds from this series into the team to improve the product. Ownership seems content to squeeze as much positive cash flow out of the franchise as possible with the least amount of investment sprinkled in with a little PR.

 

Bottom line: Winning is not a priority.

[NewHampshireBillsFan]

The sad thing for RW and for all of us is that RW could have with one SB win between 2000 and 2010, established himself for all time as an owner who determined to overcome all his bad and selfish decisions over the years to finally win the big one for the beloved city of Buffalo. I remember what one fan here in the Boston area said on a radio talk show after NE won its first SB. He said it erased 40 years of frustration that he had had as a Patsie* fan. How much more would we have felt a sense of relief if the Bills had finally won a SB during this decade.

 

Instead, RW established himself as the least successful long term ON THE FIELD owner in the history of pro sports, never winning one world championship in the soon to be 50 super bowls that have been played. I tried to defend RW for many years but the cumulative effect of his bad decisions and cheapness (especially with GMs and coaches) finally became too obvious to ignore. The situation is so bad now that I think the league is getting a little nervous about the Bills basically operating below the standards of an NFL franchise. And RW is not even pretending any more to give a coherent explanation of his future plans to improve the team, just that we need a high draft pick QB.

[Bills(70)]

What should we tell the politicians? Bring back Big Steel and Big Auto? Despite the Exodus, the Bills are a highly profitable team, right now. The Bills HAVE a base of Canadian fans. Toronto seems uninterested in this team. This isn't rocket science.

 

If the next owner was inheriting a winning franchise filled with player and coaching talent, he would not have to worry as much about how to fill the stadium down the road to pay his debts. Praising Wilson for bringing the Bills to Buffalo 5 decades ago (and enjoying risk-free monetary return since) is hardly a persuasive justification for this sell-out. Yet it seems to be the only argument these guys can make--no matter what the topic.

Well, you can start by telling state elected officials to bring 1 billion dollars to the table for a domed stadium in downtown Buffalo. They brought a combined 2.4 billion for both the Jets and Yankees new stadiums. And how about the additional 230 million for the Mets.

 

You may state that the Bills have a Canadian fan base, but the fact remains any business, yes even professional sports, look to increase their individual bottom lines by franchises outside of the targeted market area. Toronto makes complete sense for this given its large populas and geographical location to the origins of the team.

 

As for industry, lets start with cheap power that is created locally combined with a massive reduction in state, county and local workforces and payscales (specifically, medical and pension plans) that would allow reductions in taxes making the area more attractive for both business and residential sectors to grow instead of contracting.

[Doc]

Ralph Wilson: The only owner in the NFL that will sell competitive advantage in actual regular season games for cash money.

Competitive advantage? LOL! Like at Pats games, where the majority of the crowd is pro-Pats, as loads of Bills fans sell their tickets to make a profit?

[JohnC]

Well, you can start by telling state elected officials to bring 1 billion dollars to the table for a domed stadium in downtown Buffalo. They brought a combined 2.4 billion for both the Jets and Yankees new stadiums. And how about the additional 230 million for the Mets.

 

You are patently incorrect. New Jersey did not pay for the stadium. The two franchises (Giants and Jets) borrowed from the league stadium fund to get the stadium built. Ralph Wilson and maybe one other owner voted against the two franchises combining their fund allotment. I'm not saying that Jersey didn't make some infrastructure contribution but the stadium these two teams share was payed by their respective franchises.

 

With respect to Yankee stadium again you are wrong. Yankee stadium was payed for by Steinbrenner. Again, I'm not suggesting that there wasn't some form of public contribution for infrastructure upgrade but the stadium was payed for by the Yankee franchise.

Edited November 8, 2010 by JohnC

[NaPolian8693]

Yes, it is blatantly obvious if you stop and look at things that Wilson doesn't care about winning, but just wants money.

 

He would have the team play all 16 games on the road if they paid him enough.

 

The only reason he cares about winning is that the hope of winning helps sell tickets.

 

A lot of fans realize this, but many are so blinded by their unconditional, doglike love that they don't even consider this. Many will say these obvious statements are "trolling" even, they are so desperate to avoid the truth.