A Cry For Honesty in Discussing Bills Players

[BillsFan74]

It all started with the "can't wait to see Brian Brohm threads" and "Fitzpatrick just might be the answer at QB comments." I would love to have a day where a true and intelligent discussion can take place that honestly presents one's opinion in harmony with what skill/ability level the Bills currently have in players on their roster.

 

I'll go first.

 

True Statement: The Bills are a QB, LT, C, RT, TE, 2 WR's, a legitimate NT, a DE, and 2 LB's (one inside and one outside) from being an elite level football team. Now...let's have true statements about the positions of need

 

QB: Ryan Fitzpatrick has more guts than Edwards. Brian Brohm may be capable of starting a few games in Fitzpatrick's place for the Bills this year. Otherwise, both are career backups (nothing more than that..period)

 

 

LT: It is nice that Bell is related to Karl Malone, and we all wish he had his dad's talent, but Bell is not Peters (so as much as it hurts) we won't catch lightning in a bottle twice and have a TE become converted to a solid LT. We have no viable LT or LT prospect on our roster. And, for those that say Wang is a legitimate LT, I reply, "how many LT's have been drafted in the NFL from China in the 5th round?" Be honest...Wang, Meredith, Bell, and the other guys are not real LT's.

 

C: Hangartner was a starter in Carolina (when the team was a little better). He really isn't a starter but the o-line is so bad that he occasionally looks serviceable. The truth is he is nothing more than a backup. It's like holding onto a girlfriend that is a "6" hoping she'll become a "7" but the truth is...she doesn't have it in her...and you know (deep down inside that you honestly haven't had anything better than a "6" and won't...so you are stuck with her.

 

RT: Cornell Green sucks...He's old and useless, but he probably is the Bills second or third best tackle on the team.

 

TE: The Bills haven't had a legitimate TE in about 10-12 years. Nelson is fast but he'll never be a good blocker (a desperate need with a terrible o-line), and Stupar and other TE's are just waiver-wire guys that good franchises didn't have room for.

 

NT: We love Kyle Williams because he is a hardworking, overachieving, white guy who is a blue collar player. He was picked in the latter rounds, and his motor is consistent. He's gritty. He's a solid rotational guy, but he isn't ever going to be a solid NT. He's much better as a DE in a 4-3.

 

DE: Edwards and Stroud are solid backups but they aren't particularly good at anything anymore (other than leadership or nice guy personalities)

 

LB's: Some people are still delusional thinking Kelsay is worthwhile. Note: If you think Kelsay is a good player (you should be banned from this board for the season). Again, we like him because he has "stuck with the team, is a captain, a nice guy, and is "gritty." Poz is okay but is nothing more than what he is...an injury prone reach LB that we all hoped was Shane Conlan 2.0. Davis was a nice pickup because we can't get anyone. The rest of the LB's really are nothing more than backups. Maybin is what he is...Yes...he is fast...but we hate to admit it inside, but he is....__________________ (something with the words bust...useless....one dimensional are appropriate)

 

 

I agree with most of this. I feel that the FO needs to make some bold moves to reshape this roster quickly. Hopefully they will get an o-line and front seven on defense before the QB. I would rather wait another year for a QB, maybe by then we could block and tackle before we get another qb killed. I would also wait b/c Matt Barkley looks like the real deal.

Edited September 28, 2010 by BillsFan74

[Bill from NYC]

Thanks to the OP for this post. I now consider myself an optimist.

[5 Wide]

I actually like Kyle Williams because he plays with leverage, holds his gaps pretty well, and can control his man at the point of attack. I always wondered why when Williams is 6-1 and 306 he is undersized, but Troup at 6-2 315 is considered ideal size. Is the margin between undersized and ideal really 9 pounds?

[Big Turk]

Right...because all elite level teams have pro bowl starters at every position...give me a break...it is pretty obvious with a QB who isn't paralyzed back there, the OLine can hole up fine. Not the best line you've ever seen, but certainly not the worst. You don't average 7.1 yards per play with a horrible OLine. What we have seen is how the line looks with a QB who is afraid to play QB for the last 2 years. Yeah an OLine player or 2 would help, but how many teams make due with whatever they got on the Oline? A Lot. I have a good feeling about Stevie Johnson developing properly with a player that will throw the ball on time. IMHO, Offensively we could use a LT and move Bell to RT, and potentially get another WR. TE we are set at when Nelson returns. Obviously a QB is the most pressing need.

 

Defensively is where we need the help the most...front 7 can use help at virtually every position. Secondary is fine.

[Ozymandius]

your "facts" are really just "opinions"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I edited your post so we can talk about the Bills players as they really are, I excluded all the nonfactual stuff to help your quest for truth.

 

Love it!

[MRW]

Right...because all elite level teams have pro bowl starters at every position...give me a break...it is pretty obvious with a QB who isn't paralyzed back there, the OLine can hole up fine. Not the best line you've ever seen, but certainly not the worst. You don't average 7.1 yards per play with a horrible OLine. What we have seen is how the line looks with a QB who is afraid to play QB for the last 2 years. Yeah an OLine player or 2 would help, but how many teams make due with whatever they got on the Oline? A Lot. I have a good feeling about Stevie Johnson developing properly with a player that will throw the ball on time. IMHO, Offensively we could use a LT and move Bell to RT, and potentially get another WR. TE we are set at when Nelson returns. Obviously a QB is the most pressing need.

 

Defensively is where we need the help the most...front 7 can use help at virtually every position. Secondary is fine.

This is very similar to the response I was thinking of making. I would just add that if you can get a couple of players who are bona fide stars at a position like QB or DE, it can cover for a lot of average to below average players at other positions. Yes, New Orleans and Indy have a lot of talented players, but are they stacked with Pro Bowlers at every position? An elite QB is going to make an average OL look good, and conversely a subpar QB will make them look awful. Call it the Rob Johnson effect.

[ConradDobler]

Thanks to the OP for this post. I now consider myself an optimist.

 

 

How much do you charge for bifocals?

[reddogblitz]

Everyone has right to their own opinion.

[Orton's Arm]

It all started with the "can't wait to see Brian Brohm threads" and "Fitzpatrick just might be the answer at QB comments." I would love to have a day where a true and intelligent discussion can take place that honestly presents one's opinion in harmony with what skill/ability level the Bills currently have in players on their roster.

 

I'll go first.

 

True Statement: The Bills are a QB, LT, C, RT, TE, 2 WR's, a legitimate NT, a DE, and 2 LB's (one inside and one outside) from being an elite level football team. Now...let's have true statements about the positions of need

 

QB: Ryan Fitzpatrick has more guts than Edwards. Brian Brohm may be capable of starting a few games in Fitzpatrick's place for the Bills this year. Otherwise, both are career backups (nothing more than that..period)

 

WR: It was a huge mistake to sign Lee Evans to a long-term deal. He is fast and has good hands; otherwise, he has been a huge disappointment the last five years. Roscoe Parrish is fun to watch but will never be more than a #3. The other WR's are feel good stories, but there is less than a 10% chance that any of the receivers (including the beloved Steve Johnson) are going to be legitimate #1 or #2 starters in this league.

 

LT: It is nice that Bell is related to Karl Malone, and we all wish he had his dad's talent, but Bell is not Peters (so as much as it hurts) we won't catch lightning in a bottle twice and have a TE become converted to a solid LT. We have no viable LT or LT prospect on our roster. And, for those that say Wang is a legitimate LT, I reply, "how many LT's have been drafted in the NFL from China in the 5th round?" Be honest...Wang, Meredith, Bell, and the other guys are not real LT's.

 

C: Hangartner was a starter in Carolina (when the team was a little better). He really isn't a starter but the o-line is so bad that he occasionally looks serviceable. The truth is he is nothing more than a backup. It's like holding onto a girlfriend that is a "6" hoping she'll become a "7" but the truth is...she doesn't have it in her...and you know (deep down inside that you honestly haven't had anything better than a "6" and won't...so you are stuck with her.

 

RT: Cornell Green sucks...He's old and useless, but he probably is the Bills second or third best tackle on the team.

 

TE: The Bills haven't had a legitimate TE in about 10-12 years. Nelson is fast but he'll never be a good blocker (a desperate need with a terrible o-line), and Stupar and other TE's are just waiver-wire guys that good franchises didn't have room for.

 

NT: We love Kyle Williams because he is a hardworking, overachieving, white guy who is a blue collar player. He was picked in the latter rounds, and his motor is consistent. He's gritty. He's a solid rotational guy, but he isn't ever going to be a solid NT. He's much better as a DE in a 4-3.

 

DE: Edwards and Stroud are solid backups but they aren't particularly good at anything anymore (other than leadership or nice guy personalities)

 

LB's: Some people are still delusional thinking Kelsay is worthwhile. Note: If you think Kelsay is a good player (you should be banned from this board for the season). Again, we like him because he has "stuck with the team, is a captain, a nice guy, and is "gritty." Poz is okay but is nothing more than what he is...an injury prone reach LB that we all hoped was Shane Conlan 2.0. Davis was a nice pickup because we can't get anyone. The rest of the LB's really are nothing more than backups. Maybin is what he is...Yes...he is fast...but we hate to admit it inside, but he is....__________________ (something with the words bust...useless....one dimensional are appropriate)

 

 

So deep down....keep in mind that the Bills really are what you know they are rather than what you hope they are.... So, if that is true (and it is), please stop with the Brian Brohm or Ryan Fitzpatrick chants...And, yes...Chan Gailey is an upgrade over Jauron and Nix is an upgrade over (whoever that marketing guy pretending to know football guy is).

 

But again, the Bills are a girl rated as a "4". She's chunky, some stretch marks, some staining on her teeth, etc. but you've been with her for years and she occasionally shows flashes of excitement. The same is true for the Bills offense, defense, and for the franchise. While I commend everyone for their "faithfulness, fidelity, integrity, and loyalty" to your "4", let's talk about the Bills players as they really are.

I agree with most of what you've written. Overall, a very solid post!

 

But there are a few things about which we disagree.

 

Lee Evans: he may not be the guy you want as your #1 receiver. But it can make sense for teams to have a go-to guy to move the chains, and a deep burner for the long bombs. Peerless Price was the Bills' deep burner back in 2002. Alvin Harper was the Cowboys' deep burner back in the '90s. Lee Evans has excellent speed, and tends not to drop passes. If you were to pair him with a Larry Fitzgerald, or even a poor man's Larry Fitzgerald, he could be an important, reliable, useful part of your overall offensive package.

 

Hangartnar: I agree center is a need. Last season Hangartnar was the 32nd ranked starting center in the league, so it's important we upgrade that position. He was not a starter in Carolina. He appeared in a number of Panthers games when starting players got hurt, and was their #1 option if any starting interior offensive lineman went down. Panthers fans had good things to say about him, which would seem to suggest that he did not play center very often when going against elite 3-4 NTs.

 

Bell: is playing a higher level of football this year than he had last year. I tend to think that the LT position will probably need to be addressed if we want a top-15 player. But I see it as a less urgent need than some others; and Bell is probably good enough to get us by for now.

 

Your overall theme is correct. The Bills require a serious infusion of talent before they will be considered a real threat to advance in the playoffs.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Sent to waiver wire

More importantly, what is your new screen name going to be? Just wondering which QB you were going to cast your DOOM upon.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills

[Orton's Arm]

More importantly, what is your new screen name going to be? Just wondering which QB you were going to cast your DOOM upon.

Very funny!

 

In answer to your question, I'm waiting until after the 2011 draft to decide on a new screen name. I'm hoping the Bills take Ponder, who I think is a good enough football player to withstand even my curse of DOOM!!!

 

Besides that, I figure the third time's the charm. If my screen name didn't do anything to help Holcomb, and didn't help Edwards, it's got to help whichever QB the Bills choose in 2011. Especially if they do what they should have done fifteen years ago: use a first round pick on a college QB who was a proven pocket passer. A QB known for his accuracy, ability to read defenses, and ability to look at three or four options before making his throw.

[Conch]

i honestly think it's presumptuous of you to assume that everyone who likes kyle williams likes him because he's a white guy. i honestly think it's presumptuous of you to assume other people are not honest because they have an opinion that might conflict with yours. i honestly think it's a mistake to try and sound like you're the voice of reason when you toss in a self-serving and unverifiable statement like "there is less than a 10% chance...". i honestly think the poster who pointed out that Wang wasn't born in China was honestly correct. and i honestly am not sure if the girl scale you're using is based on a 5 or a 10 and honestly that makes a big difference.

 

oh, and i honestly think you make some decent points otherwise.

Board people here think Kyle is great mostly because he is white, same for Poz and Hangartner. If they were black all three would be as worthwhile as Cornell Green or Donte Whitner and would have been run out of town like Jason Peters was and why many want to run Marshawn out of town. People hate to be accused of bigotry but this board is flush with it.

 

The one thing the original poster forgot to mention in his assessment of the Bills is that we have one helluva punter, a decent placekicker and a long snapper who doesn't suck. And that is what this team is built around. Unfortunately,

[Grimace]

Board people here think Kyle is great mostly because he is white, same for Poz and Hangartner. If they were black all three would be as worthwhile as Cornell Green or Donte Whitner and would have been run out of town like Jason Peters was and why many want to run Marshawn out of town. People hate to be accused of bigotry but this board is flush with it.

 

The one thing the original poster forgot to mention in his assessment of the Bills is that we have one helluva punter, a decent placekicker and a long snapper who doesn't suck. And that is what this team is built around. Unfortunately,

 

The thing that makes it easiest to downplay racism is when claims of it are made inappropriately. There might be merit to this topic (I'll leave that alone), but the examples of fans animosity toward Jason Peters and Marshawn Lynch destroy this point. On-field complaints about the two players seem small compared to other players of their timeframe (Kelsay, Whitner, Ellison, Pozluzny, Green, and Hangartner to name a few).

 

The origin of dislike for these two people is based around a conflict of values. A person with a perceived high standard of character doesn't like the idea of a player sitting out practice and preseason over complaints of what they view as extremely high salaries to try to earn more money, only to come back before serious income penalties incur as the season starts and games are missed (damaging the team more than their bank account). Likewise, multiple scuffles with behavior issues that have legal ramifications can understandably lower a fan's esteem of a person.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Grimace

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Board people here think Kyle is great mostly because he is white, same for Poz and Hangartner. If they were black all three would be as worthwhile as Cornell Green or Donte Whitner and would have been run out of town like Jason Peters was and why many want to run Marshawn out of town. People hate to be accused of bigotry but this board is flush with it.

 

The one thing the original poster forgot to mention in his assessment of the Bills is that we have one helluva punter, a decent placekicker and a long snapper who doesn't suck. And that is what this team is built around. Unfortunately,

 

well, like many who defer to the lowest common denominator in a sports or political discussion, you've made a compelling argument that the only possible answer is racism.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Agree with alot of points however Williams is a pro bowl NT. Edwards is solid a def end in a 3-4 and Poz is fine as an inside LB with great pass coverage skills. Do agree with your other points strongly though.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Board people here think Kyle is great mostly because he is white, same for Poz and Hangartner. If they were black all three would be as worthwhile as Cornell Green or Donte Whitner and would have been run out of town like Jason Peters was and why many want to run Marshawn out of town. People hate to be accused of bigotry but this board is flush with it.

 

The one thing the original poster forgot to mention in his assessment of the Bills is that we have one helluva punter, a decent placekicker and a long snapper who doesn't suck. And that is what this team is built around. Unfortunately,

The reality is that each of these players has been both praised and criticized on this board. Even Cornell Green was given the benefit of the doubt before he took the field, I distinctly recall a poster claiming that Buddy Nix made a great move in signing him because he had had a history of seeing Green when he was in San Diego (which was weak argument as the reality is that history was 1 season only).

[3irty1]

Lynch for Hawk + a TE.

[Orton's Arm]

Board people here think Kyle is great mostly because he is white, same for Poz and Hangartner. If they were black all three would be as worthwhile as Cornell Green or Donte Whitner and would have been run out of town like Jason Peters was and why many want to run Marshawn out of town. People hate to be accused of bigotry but this board is flush with it.

 

The one thing the original poster forgot to mention in his assessment of the Bills is that we have one helluva punter, a decent placekicker and a long snapper who doesn't suck. And that is what this team is built around. Unfortunately,

It's true that Hangartnar is overrated by many on this board. But it's possible that some of those who'd overrated him were basing their opinions on the positive things they'd heard about him from Carolina fans.

 

Kyle Williams is a very solid player, and is not overrated by most of the people on this board.

 

Those that want to run Marshawn out of town aren't trying to replace him with a white player: they're trying to replace him with a black player who isn't a thug.

 

People hate Cornell Green because he's a turnstile that gets quarterbacks killed. He has no place in this league even as a backup.

 

People hate Donte Whitner because he talks big without backing it up on the field, and because it was boneheaded for the front office to use the eighth overall pick on a strong safety with below-average one-on-one coverage skills. If he'd been a third round pick--which is about where he should have been chosen--and if he didn't run his mouth, people wouldn't complain about him.

 

When Whitner was chosen eighth overall, it generated a very negative reaction among the fan base, and rightly so. Those who defended the pick wrote things along the lines of, "What if he's the next Ronnie Lott? No one would reasonably complain about using the eighth overall pick to get a player like that." But it's long since become clear to everyone that Whitner isn't the next Ronnie Lott, or even the next Ed Reed. He's just a middle-of-the-road safety who can barely succeed in keeping George Wilson on the bench. The fact that just about everyone on these boards now agrees that taking him 8th overall was a horrible reach removes one source of irritation for those who, like myself, hated that pick from the very beginning.

[CountDorkula]

I agree that evans is good, but i think we should trade him now - for as many draft picks/prospects possible - while he has value. by the time the bills' right the ship, evans will be old and maybe have lost a step. as the op noted, we have so many weak positions but a wr's status is instantly upgraded with a solid qb. getting rid of evans creates a huge talent hole, but in the scope of the whole team, it's not that big of a deal. i'd much rather lack at wr than ol, lb, or dl.

 

while williams is no 'stud' nt, he does a great job and i think his performance doesn't detract from the 3-4. of course a better player would make the defense as a whole better, but he's one of our better players on d.

 

and i too have noticed bell's progression, let's hope he keeps it up.

 

So we trade him, then we have to spend another high draft pick on another receiver, where we could have used it for another position. It will only put this team farther behind.

 

Not to mention are #1 would be who Roscoe parrish...