Koufax

It is Thursday. Peters is the same as if he had suffered a season ending knee surgery. He isn't here, the Bills can't expect him any time soon, and they have to try to win without him. I think he officially can kiss the Bills Fan Love goodbye, and I will remember and boo and now look forward to him no longer being a Bill. I might be in a minority, but he has moved from a power play of trying to get more millions by skipping some meaningless practices in the summer heat to hurting his 52 teammates (and helping one 53rd person who now gets to suit up!) and everybody who roots for them in real and significant ways. So long Jason, let us know if you feel like playing football for us at some point in the future and we will see what we can do, but you are in Ricky Williams territory right now, so enjoy your bongs across Asia or your bar-b-que across Texas, or whatever it is that your 340lb butt does when not on the football field.

Skipping training camp as a pro-bowler: uncool but understandable, all forgiven down the road Not being at practice Tuesday before the season opener: completely uncool, and starting to build up the bad blood that will not go away ever. In my mind as of yesterday he has moved from being a greedy guy playing the business game to take care of his future to being a loser who is hurting the chances of his entire team and every Bills fan of accomplishing something special this year. Maybe I should wait until kickoff to really get mad, but this weekend we moved from a pre-season holdout to a regular season hold-out, and those are completely entirely different animals to me, and I don't think he knows what he is getting himself into.

I would like to offer a second on the BOOOOOO, and officially apologize to all members of this board for posting to a Peters thread. But I will take sick-one-of-the-best-nfl-talents talent over "chemistry" all season long, and I don't care if he reports Saturday afternoon, I look forward to Jason playing and him being gone much longer only hurts us.

I'm normally a Pyrite Gal fan, but no reason to turn a joke thread into another serious Peters thread. BOOO!

Can't buy it, so a little different. I gladly pay MLB 20 bucks a month all summer to watch games, but as a San Diego resident don't have any way of watching the Bills live unless one of these kind folks puts up a link Stealing what you can buy to save money is a little different than viewing what you cannot buy but would gladly pay for if offered but cannot. Still not totally above board, and just as not-law-okay, but seems a little different on the morality side.

Exactly. While I am disappointed that he is not in uniform and am concerned it will hurt our team especially early in the season, the reality is almost in the Allen Iverson "practice" stuff, we are talking about the pre-season, and as long as he is in uniform and ready to go in week 1 all will be forgiven.

I don't think we will have a QB controversy even if JP blows up Indy on Sunday. I was a big JP supporter, wish him well, am glad to have him as a backup for as long as we will, am disappointed he didn't work out, and think he could be successful for another team if some of the missing pieces click. That being said, he is out of his starting job and the train has left the station. It would take a prolonged injury to Trent and some amazing surprise performance over a long stretch for the door to open at all. The issue with JP is not his attitude or his arm or his legs or his upside. He has oodles of talent and when he is on it is incredible. The issue with JP is being able to make quick consistent decisions and throw the right pass with accuracy consistently. I agree with things turning on the Jacksonville game, and that really was his do or die moment. But whether that was the right time to move on or not (I'm excited about Edwards), it is the decision that was made. NO AMOUNT of small sample size brilliance can make up for the demonstrated failure in consistent decision making. The only two things that could make JP the starter are a change of scenery or being forced to play multiple regular season games because of an injury and absolutely lighting it up with better than expected consistency. So until you hear "Edwards" and "crutches" and "4-6 weeks" in the same sentence there is ZERO chance of a QB controversy outside of the Buffalo News regardless of the performance of JP in any preseason game. Of course I didn't think Rob Johnson would have started against the Titans, so I could be wrong

Right, but if he can get an Adjustable Interest Only loan and if the market keeps rising and he can refinance and take out equity based on the appreciation before the loan resets he could make it work...no wait that's the housing market...

I agree that Walker is better than expected and Dockery worse. It is exciting to think that Walker should be pretty impressive as a RT when (not if) we get Peters back, and our line could be pretty impressive across the board. Although was it Fowler or Preston who was bull rushed onto his behind on that JP sack inside our own 20?

#1 flaw with this forum is the lack of official-ish threads. I don't mean they have to be Official Threads endorsed by the NFL Players Association, but it would be cool if a given topic could stay in its own thread when there is one. My compliments to The Big Cat...

I'm pretty sure Soprano saw him at the airport...

Arm strength: Jeff George > JP Losman > Tom Brady / Joe Montana / Trent Edwards > Pennington / Holcomb Joel Zumaya > Billy Koch > John Rocker > Mariano Rivera > Greg Maddux > Jamie Moyer I think it should be pretty clear that if Trent Edwards fails it will not be because of a lack of arm strength. His arm is weaker than JPs, but JP has come up short for reasons completely separate than arm strength. I think arm strength is really fun and cool, and Elway and Favre and Cunningham were so much fun to watch, and often helped their teams with bullets or bombs. But once you reach a competent NFL level, it becomes secondary to other factors. I don't think that arm strength will have anything to do with whether Trent will be Tom Brady or Todd Collins when all is said and done, and think this is a red herring. I also don't think arm strength is even the most important factor in throwing the deep ball. Timing and precision matters a lot more. It is very very rare to get enough protection (other than a hail mary) to have receivers outrun the range of ANY NFL quarterback. Evans said it well that he just needs to get more comfortable throwing it. Most deep balls are thrown 30-50 yards downfield which pretty much any NFL quarterback (and me...go me!) can throw. The balls that go over 50 in the air are rare and secondary to winning. I think arm strength actually has more of an impact on mid range thread the needle passes.

Some pre-season observations: 1) Clearly McCargo is a bust. Whitner and Reed can't play through pain so are too soft for the NFL 2) Peyton Manning can't play through pain either, so is sort of a wuss, but that is okay because Quinn Gray is leading the league in passing yards, and likely to keep that up through the regular season. Word has it Gray has already filmed his Disney World commercial for after the Super Bowl as well. 3) The Patriots 22nd in scoring and go 0-16, making the 16 game year to year an unbreakable record...at least that is the pace they are on. 4) Trent Edwards will fail to pass for a single touch down, and JP will return to a starting role as the Bills fail to improve in any way and finish 7-9 again. 5) Marcus Mason and David Clowney will lead the league in rushing and passing, but neither will be able to beat out Mkristo Bruce and his NFL record 40 sacks for league MVP. ...or... it is just preseason. I am mixed on McCargo, but not based on one quote and one pre season game. I still think he has a lot of upside, and look forward to him being a valuable Bill this season. If you want to discuss front office draft strategy you can evaluate him as a first round pick, otherwise you just evaluate him as a football player, and one I am happy to have right now. Probably not the best pick to help our team in a perfect world, but certainly someone who can help this team win football games now. And I am going to lay off the Edwards stuff. He didn't look good in the few plays he played, but I'm going to base more of my opinion on what he did last year than on the first couple snaps of a practice game. The team has to play better, and I look for solid progress through the preseason, and hope we get Peters back, but let's just take a deep breath and base our insight and thoughts and analysis on more than a pre-season opener which consistently year after year are not a great indicator of the actual state and ability of a football team.

My general draft philosophy is that taking the most total expected contributions over a five year window is generally a good idea, and that over drafting based on need helps you get a little more contribution in year 1, at the cost of less over 2-5 (assuming the need pick is an inferior total football player, and that needs change with other draft picks, free agent signings, etc., so the year 1 need isn't a year 3 need necessarily). But to push this out and say that the Bills are making a mistake based partly on the contribution you don't expect in the 2013 season seems a little much.

Guys...4th round pick...not a place we are going to get a sure fired stud, so getting someone our scouting department thinks is good is fine with me, and if he can bump anybody down on the depth chart we are a better football team for it. I agree with the earlier comment about NE passing at will on us, and while our two picks aren't guaranteed to shut anybody down right away, you have to think that our secondary just got better and deeper. But what is surprising is most ratings I have seen don't have him close to the best CB left on the board, so hopefully our scouting is better than the "I run a draft website" crew.

Since the hard drive issue has removed the last 100 times I've said this, I will say for the FIRST TIME EVER: Draft the most football value you can in the draft. That means something like the best player available or the most useful of several similar players. And do it based on what kind of contribution you expect over five years. Filling specific holes is a bad situation to be in. Sometimes it works out well like last year, sometimes it bombs. I think last year you could make a case that both of our picks were the best players available when we picked them. If we can find a way for it to be a big tall WR I love that idea, but if we are going to get more 5 year value out of a DT, out of a CB, out of a DE, out of a TE then we make that move. The thing is, over a five year window there will be a lot of player movement and your needs will change. If you have taken an inferior player because you think you need him more in 2008, you are often giving up too much. I'm not saying we should take a RB or QB, but the draft should be more wide open to who we think will give the best contribution and football impact over five years as a football player, not as a patch for a flawed team.

Turner is an outstanding player, and I would be very happy to have him as a Bill. The fact that he was a 5th round pick is a mistake by all 32 teams like when Brady went in the 6th. The fact that he is a backup is like blaming Steve Young for backing up Joe Montana. The fact that he didn't go to a top 10 school has to do with choices made when he was coming out of high school, and not with the player he is now. But back to the point of the thread and article...the Chargers don't have all the power, and the article was ridiculous. The Bills did not trade McGahee to force them to have to land Turner. The Bills traded McGahee because they were happy finding the best alternative in round 1, round 2, or via trade to go with Thomas. Turner is a great fit for the Bills, but only if the trade makes sense and is fair. Similarly the Chargers don't have to trade Turner, and he would be a very valuable member of their 2007 team trying to win the Super Bowl. So neither side holds all the cards. Both sides can benefit greatly from a fair trade, and both sides are fine walking away if the deal available isn't fair. I think this settles down (pending contract extension demands) to mean our 2nd rounder + another lower pick (this year or next). If the Chargers are okay with that we get a great solution to our RB situation. If not Turner enjoys SD for another year and we head into the draft deciding between the two round 1 guys or the round 2 guys.

Crowell, Ellison, high draft pick (A little worried, but I don't think we will be worse than last year with 8-yard Fletcher and hobbling Spikes) I hope Michael Turner, but otherwise A-Train and a draft pick ranging from Peterson to Pittman Yes, Youboty is ready to be the full time starter. I don't get the doubts surrounding him. Maybe he will be a star, maybe he will struggle a little, but he is a starting corner and we can stop worrying about it. Sure he has to "win" the spot in camp, but we all know that is a forgone conclusion, and Marv will probably consider bringing in a 3rd rounder to compete with McGee and Thomas for the other starting spot. I just don't get all the worries. If the season started before the draft we would be in trouble somewhat with Wire and Thomas both starting. But it doesn't and we are looking for TWO starters out of the draft this year, one of them at the most interchangeable position in football (RB). Last year we got Ko, Dante, Kyle, Ellison, and Pennington as guys who started.

The difference is that having seen them both play a lot over the last couple years, I think that Turner is going to be better than Willis, aside from lower contract demands and better attitude. I could be wrong, and am not the best NFL talent scout. But I have a feeling Marv and DJ probably would agree with this. I would have traded MaGoofee for Turner straight up with no second thoughts, and don't mind spending slightly more than we got for Willis.

Yep, exactly right. I saw every Turner game all year, and he is tremendous and I would gladly give up our second for him. Dismissing him because he is a backup to LT (which Larry Johnson would be, and every other RB in football) makes no sense. I'm not saying he will be a HOFer, but I think he is a top 10 NFL back. I would give up #12 for him if there wasn't the contract extension issue which increases his total cost to us.

I was looking at Carr's numbers for that horrible team called the Texans (I was hoping to use them to show how much better JP was), and I don't think he is as bad as some people think. I think that the Shaub deal will go down as a terrible one (small upgrade in QB for a ton of draft value that should have been spent elsewhere). And I think Carolina just got a good backup who could be their starter if things go that way.

This year's second plus a third this year or next seems very fair to me. Turner is more valuable to us than MaGoofee and will be a better player, so I don't mind spending a little more, but would really like to stay away from anything in the first round. But my main question is since when is "has went" reasonable English that first 10 responses don't take a second to make fun of? TSW has way too many threads to begin with, with people starting new ones instead of adding their insight to another relevant thread, but at least we can hope for some quality grammar. I am not bold enough to start "The Official Michael Turner Trade Rumor Thread", but that wouldn't be a bad idea either.

No. Marv will not take AJ to the cleaners because AJ is very sharp, but Marv will not pay more than what he thinks Turner is worth no matter how good AJ is. That doesn't mean he won't overpay (Walker) or make a less than great decision, but I'm pretty confident he will do fine, and nearly certain how good AJ is will not play a part. And I'm fine giving up more than we got for MaGoofee. Turner is a better back right now (I saw all of SDs games last year). I just don't want to give up more in cash and picks than makes sense, when Willis would really help a lot and we could get a quality RB later in the draft.

I would take Peterson in a heartbeat if he falls to #12. The reason you can't equate giving up the #12 for Turner with giving it up for Lynch is the contract difference it will take for the next four years. I fully expect Turner to outperform Lynch. I'm still hoping for Willis at #12 and anything but the first for Turner (meaning our second and possibly something else). But if we don't get Turner done before draft day and Peterson falls I would be a very happy camper. If he can stay healthy (my one concern) he is going to be tremendous. And I don't see his injury history as necessarily pointing to an injury future. Peterson is higher on my draft board than Willis, and I think most people agree, which is why him falling to #12 would be a shocker, and nobody mentions Willis going in the top 10.

Wow. I'm glad you aren't our GM. Turner is a stud player and will be great whenever he gets to start. I watched him all last year (living in San Diego, that's about all we get), and he is a legitimate talent. I would give up our second in a heartbeat if I weren't concerned about how much more than Lynch/Pittman he will cost to sign for similar length.