Mikie2times

Sometimes you don't know how rare something is before some time elapses. With the additional game, it's only a matter of time before nearly every record based on a total falls. One record that I think is different is the 200 sacks in a career by Bruce. After Reggie, the next closest player to Bruce is 40 sacks behind or the equivalent of 3 exceptional seasons. Consider the only active NFL player who is even a threat is Aaron Donald at 7 1/2 seasons and 30 years old. For him to eclipse Bruce, he would essentially have to duplicate his success for the same amount of time he has been in the league until he is 38 years old. Maybe in 4-5 years we can discuss if TJ Watt is a threat or not. That's what makes this record so ridiculous. You could average 10 sacks a year for 10 years and still only be half way. It's a record of consistency, stamina, and talent and even with the additional game I think it stands as long as any of them.

Josh Allen is better than Mahomes

Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias.

To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer. With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG. These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly. Enjoy QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs *Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold. WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans *Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold TE: Ernie Warlick *Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable. OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw *Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30 DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington *Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds *Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes *Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5 Top 10 1. OJ Simpson RB 2. Bruce Smith DL 3. Jim Kelly QB 4. Tom Sestak DL 5. Butch Byrd DB 6. Thurman Thomas RB 7. Joe Cribbs RB 8. Mario Williams DL 9. Shane Conlan LB 10. Cornelius Bennett #11 Would have been Josh Allen

Great post, this is one of those eternal debates but clearly you have really good perspective on it. I 100% agree with the Jets/Colts and Chiefs/Vikes. I guess we will really never know. Really different styles in the AFL as well, in my opinion more forward thinking than the NFL at that time, perhaps as result of less risk being felt to go outside the grain. Also some fantastic uniforms. Buffalo's were obviously great, Chargers, several others. The 60's was a really interesting era in Pro Football, 50's as well.

I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64. I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills. Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm

Honestly, I think I just got frustrated by how it was presented, because it is pretty damn interesting as long is everybody is looking at it the same way.

I think the OP missed on the way this should have been presented (I'm not dogging you OP it is a good question just confusing). Some are looking at it more like a single season, others are looking at it as far as a career and body of work, then others looking at it like pure talent. As an example, I would I take 2020 Diggs against any season James Lofton had AS A BILL, but not any in his career nor for his career and body of work. I also can't discount Andre Reed, Eric Mould's, or Elbert Dubenion career body work as a Bill compared to Diggs. I also think you have to look at performance relative to pears, well, if that's how you choose to look at it. Obviously any modern athlete is superior, is that how we want to look at this? I really don't know if that's a fair look. That said if this is a Bills list, I feel the standard should be both career and body of work as a Bill. At which point, nobody on our roster could be eligible yet. Some are inching closer. So the question would become who likely can it be? Which really becomes interesting because it's impacted by how good we have been at some positions historically as well as your future outlook of our roster. We are likely furthest away at RB and probably DE, just because Bruce was an all timer. He goes on every list, not just Bills lists. Then we have nobody close to OJ or Thurman.

Oh calm down, I'm not greased up with bitterness, I'm calling a spade a spade. You're right, this is a fan forum. I thought your post was one of the most short sighted I read on the forum in a long time and I have been here awhile. Perhaps I could have stated it with more sensitivity. Happy Holidays.

Doesn't sound like you're over 35, just a guess. Kelly has as many Super Bowl appearances as Allen has seasons. He is in the HOF. Allen very well could end up being the best, but it isn't even a conversation at this time. If you tried to bring your case to trial the judge would get pissed off at you for wasting his time.

Wow, we have entered into a new era of dumb with this thread.

Naaa, just doesn't fit your narrative. Further Zack Moss has a lower YPC by .1 and 1.1 yards vs Singletary in 2020 and 2021, over the period where we actually did start playing USFL ball. Please don't counter with red zone carries, it's not, already checked. Difference of 6 carries inside the 5 yard line both years combined. I would also find it unusual that Motor could get 35+ carries consistently at Florida Atlantic, then his rookie year average 5.1, then fatigue drops it to 5.0 this year? No pattern to your pattern. I'm not a prime club member of the the motor fan club. He has his issues, but what he is and isn't needs to be clear. He is elusive, agile, and fast in short areas. He is not somebody who can survive poor line play. He breaks very few tackles and is not a viable HR threat. Our line since he has been here has been elite bat at run blocking. Only an elite back would make a difference with elite bad run blocking line and most people on here aren't willing to spend the jack for an elite back. All things considered, if it was pick one, I would rather the money go to the line. It's more likely we correct that then land one of 3-5 guys in the NFL.

When we drafted him I said playaction would be a strength. You could see it at Wyoming. It removes any timing or mechanics issues with Josh. He’s been devastating in playaction.

This explains him at 5.1 his rookie year in 2019, when we weren't a modern version of the USFL?

Outside of the good decision making, this is it. Josh gets a lot of dropped INT's and I'm starting to think luck has little to do with it.

Last years squad was playing more consistent high end football than we have reached this year and it took a fantastic strip on the last Patriots drive to win the first game. The Patriots already had imploded by the second game. This years New England team is light years ahead of last years and for tangible reasons. They had the leagues largest COVID list last year and then got further depleted by injuries. No QB, no real identity. This year is much different. They have played some of the best teams in the NFL to a coin flip and are just one game back. Yes, they're a threat. We aren't good enough to be this cocky yet.

Pretty sure the rest of the 650,000 emails contain some incriminating statements involving owners in the NFL. What a blunder by Goodell. Regardless of what Chucky said or did, it's pretty obvious the NFL is hiding something. I don't imagine Chuck is going for money, he's going for the jugular. No closed door settlement coming. Have fun Roger.

Not so much arrogant team, more like growing team not ready to take everybody's best shot yet. If you watched the press conference Meyer had, I would have felt embarrassed to be getting asked the questions he was. All of it was about how good we were, how long Jacksonville has to go, if they plan on mirroring the process we followed. It was if the score was already decided. These teams are all giving us 100% each week and we are not consistent enough yet to deal with it. No longer the hunter, now the hunted. Big difference.

Thanks! I wonder why I was under that impression.

Locals and people on this forum would know better than me, but I'm pretty sure the Bills just stole it from Reid and slapped the trademark on it. Sounded shady from the article I read, but again somebody on here can correct me if I'm not accurate.

Josh Allen accounts for the third largest % of a teams rushing yards for a QB, only behind Lamar and Jalen Hurts. Output isn't the issue, it's we have no output with our RB's. Which is the entire part of the run game that allows for things like playaction or slowing down the pass rush or staying on schedule.

The run and shoot offense had it's proponents and many people who associated with it were looked at as offensive visionaries. It produced some gaudy numbers and legendary players. Certainly plenty of teams that ran it had success and at times were even lethal. Having said that, it never brought a Super Bowl or NCAA championship to a football team. It's dependency on the pass made it too inconsistent in handling all of the situations that occur over the course of a season. While this is a pass happy league, I feel as if Daboll and his offense is very similar to the run and shoot. Not as far as schematics, but as far as versatility and results. It can be very good, at times even lethal, but it lacks any attempt at consistency in the conventional running game. It's one thing to abandon the run when you trail late or big. It's another to abandon it in a very tight defensive game when your passing offense is also failing. This is not like a normal run and shoot with an extremely efficient passing game, it is a big play passing team heavily dependent on Allen to break containment and stretch plays. It is completely one dimensional in regards to RB usage. We simply do not use them and it's incorrect to just sum up the reason as "well, the run game stinks". You don't just run the ball for the purpose of gaining yards. You do so in order to slow down teams pass rush and generate play action. To help your offensive line. It's one thing to be unsure the pass is coming, another to think it's not, and another to know it is. We are putting teams in a position where they know and it's with an offensive strategy largely dependent on QB improvisation across huge amounts of passing attempts. Once in awhile after a game like this Daboll will real it back in. Give the RB's 20 rushes, but his character is that of an addict with passing the center of his addiction. He can make it a week or two but relapse is inevitable. He has shown no ability to consistently acknowledge that balance in the game of football matters. History is not on his side with such an attitude.

I love college football and watch it more as a whole than I do NFL. I watch every Bills game, but I'll watch several college games. In my opinion the refs at the college level are better. I feel it's largely because they have less involvement in the game.

9 runs by running backs. Inexcusable, we already saw earlier this year what the team looks like when they abandon the run. The pass blocking just can't hold up and if you have enough pressure and enough reps eventually bad Josh will appear.

Ya, no thank you on fighting Gore. You know that dude can take a punch.