JohnBonhamRocks

HC - Mularky (didn't quit on his team, closest we've been to playoffs) OC - Gailey (got production out of Fitzpatrick and Johnson; will call screens to Watkins) DC - Williams (certainly not Ryan, too bad Schwartz is not an option) ST - Lynn (seems to be a leader of men and can covertly call the offense)

Figured you had the NFC South information via NO. Unfortunately, not too confident anything done against the Saints defense is too great a marker in recent history. I'd like to think Williams can contribute more, but just did not see it last year. Given how good our line was at run blocking, his production did not seem all that great; 3.5 YPC is a little underwhelming considering our backs had 2.8 or so yards before contact on average. Hopefully he returns to more of what he showed in college. I can't say I have no hope for a HB going into his second season and who had a pretty major injury the year before. Definitely wish we kept Gillislee. Agree that we should have kept Gillislee, assuming you think that based on those numbers. While I don't expect him to give anywhere near Gillislee's output, Tolbert is 31 years old, not 33, and should contribute decently to our rushing attack. Sincere question: are you serious or sarcastic with the bolded statement? Would be very interested to know if he did lead the league in something.

Found the splits, and do not think they support what I said all that well. Also feel like they are missing some short-yardage situations, but I could just be misreading the numbers. Here, and you can go through his different years on the link: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/11658/mike-tolbert Before finding those numbers, I was going off the fact that he was listed as FB. Plus, I remember Fozzy Whittaker and Cameron Artis-Payne getting a decent amount of touches last year behind Jonathan Stewart, and the year prior they had DeAngelo Williams.

I would like to see him line up in a variety of places and his versatility utilized. If nothing else, he should allow Dennison to get a little creative and keep the defense off balance a bit. For example, if he's the shotgun single back on say, a 3rd and 4, then he could viably take a dive or draw hand-off, stay at home to block, or run a route. The defense has to account for all three. I hope he surprises. The low YPC and fumbles do concern me though, but here's to hoping!

I'll look and try to find some statistics on how many carries were short yardage, but am not sure where to find those (anyone else have suggestions?). As far as I can tell, he was listed as a fullback for the Panthers 2012-2016, as opposed to halfback for the Chargers 2008-2011. It's admittedly an assumption that his Panthers carries were short-yardage, but not a huge leap given that most fullback carries come in short-yardage situations, and he was a fullback his entire time there. That is part of my argument, but not the whole. I've mostly emphasized his versatility - can run, catch, and block - and leadership.

Having trouble locating - anyone have how much time the line gave Taylor to throw? I realize he affects this by choosing to throw or not throw, just looking for some statistics. The Dawkins pick seems like a real smart one at this point. Glenn has injury history. Incognito is no spring chicken. Mills has little business being a starter. Most definitely agree with the prior Cowher quote that investing in the OL is majorly important, and tend to have that view in general - that a team should build from the trenches on both sides of the ball. Glad we added to our OL depth.

There we go, some statistics. My facts were based on a quote from his coach in 2014, and also quotes from his current coach 3-4 months ago. I'm also having fun, and not offended - I just enjoy making arguments based on substance, like you finally did a little bit of with some statistics. Speaking of, he followed up the 2.1 YPC as a fullback with 4.1 (2015) and 3.3 (2016) YPC as a fullback. He had 3 and 1 receiving TDs in 2015 and 2016 as a fullback. Not amazing, but not terrible for a fullback who is probably only being asked to get 3-4 yards (goal line & 3rd/4th down conversions). Here, he will be used as a fullback and as a halfback. More chances to put up statistics. Even if he's not the one carrying the ball and scoring, I like that he can help McCoy stay fresh and by paving the way for him. And not even a huge Tolbert fan - I would have preferred we kept Gillislee (and maybe still have added Tolbert to compete with Williams for HB3). Not expecting him to be some team saving all pro running back taking the league by storm at 31 years old, but am interested to see how his versatility and leadership helps the Bills. But yeah, I'll enjoy my tenure, so long as you enjoy yours as the Cherry-Pick Facts & Resort to Insults Club (affiliates of the League of Poorly Crafted Arguments).

Attempts at insults are a common resort for people who cannot rely on facts. It happens more than it should on TBD. I hope your okay. Anyone want to talk football? Specifically the Buffalo Bills running back depth?

Favorite answer in the thread. Also, Alphadawg7, stop making sense!

Right back atcha, bud. What is a right, but three lefts?

I hope my right two.

No player may be the same player they were last year. We can speculate or we can use sources and analyze factually. McDermott, a few months ago, seemed to think he's valuable though: Q: What does signing two fullbacks – or a guy who is very fullback-like because he’s a running back too, in Mike Tolbert – what does that say about your offensive plan? It’s not typical to have two fullbacks, so it makes a statement – or it seems to. A: Well, fullback is a big part of this offense, and let’s say this: it’s not limited to playing the fullback position. There’s versatility within that position, and what Mike brings to the table – as you mentioned, Mike Tolbert. I had the chance to be around Mike for a number of years in Carolina and I know what he brings to the table in terms of leadership, intangibles again, and what happens in that locker room on Monday through Saturday. So that’s a big part of it, and then Mike’s versatility on the field with the ability to play fullback, line up at fullback and then also transition to the halfback position and carry the football, and he’s done that extremely well. I had a front-row seat to observe what Mike’s skill set is, both on and off the field, and that was key for us. You’re talking about a guy that’s been to a Pro Bowl, and that’s really no different to [Patrick] DiMarco, in this case. ... Q: What would an example or two be about what Tolbert does from Monday to Saturday that makes it different? A: [laughs] The Tol-dozer. I think you’ll get a feel pretty early what he’s all about. First of all, he’s a family man, a good person, and in order to be a great leader, you’ve got to lead by example and you see that on a daily basis with a man of Mike’s caliber off the field. What he does in the community is phenomenal as well. He’s just got that “it” that people gravitate towards. He’s known as a solid dancer around the locker room and I think you’ll enjoy – if and when he gets in the end zone – he likes to showcase some of those talents. No, but he’s a good addition for us. ... Q: You’ve mentioned versatility a lot. It seems to be kind of a theme when you look at the players you signed today. How important is versatility and hybrid-type roles on both sides of the ball in your systems? A: There’s a term that we use called position flexibility. Versatility, position flexibility, same as – that’s important. You look at Micah Hyde: Micah’s been a returner, he’s played safety, and I mentioned corner and nickel. That’s important for us. Mike Tolbert’s played both fullback and halfback extremely well so you’re looking for that value in guys. When you add the component in the locker room with these individuals, that’s big for us. (March 9, 2017: http://buffalonews.com/2017/03/09/said-buffalo-bills-transcripts-sean-mcdermott-tyrod-taylor/)

No need to wait. I'll keep providing facts. How about the fact that we lost Gillislee, who was our goal line back? That’s because offensive coordinator Anthony Lynn confirmed that Gillislee is the team’s designated goal line back. “Shady is one of the most explosive backs in the league. He can get a lot of his touchdowns from outside the red zone, but Mike is that decisive, no nonsense type runner that you’re looking for inside the three, two-yard line,” said Lynn. “That’s his role and everybody in the backfield knows that’s his role and he’s going to get those touches when we get down there. And Shady is good with that.” (From 2016: http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-Today-Gillislee-is-the-official-goal-line-back/00c9e8e0-36fe-4291-881a-72c266d5a5f1) How about the fact that we added Tolbert, an effective goal line back? Coach Ron Rivera hinted that Mike Tolbert will remain the Panthers goal-line back. Rivera alluded to the goal-line role when discussing the 13 pounds Tolbert lost this offseason. "We don't want him to lose that nose for the goal line that he has. A lot of times he's our fourth-down, go-to guy. He's our crunch-time guy," Rivera said. Tolbert had five rushing TDs on 101 carries last season while DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart combined for three rushing scores on 249 attempts. (From 2014: http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/290709/mike-tolbert-still-the-panthers-goal-line-rb) Personally, given that McCoy is, as you said, "ready to break one every time he touches the ball," I'd rather not have him taking the goal line carries and being the guy taking the beating. Sometimes you need a guy to get the 3 yards in a pile of dust to punch it in or convert a 3rd and short. I'd rather that be Tolbert than McCoy. I'd rather see McCoy for a full season.

Familiar with the concept of conversation. My preference is to rely on facts, not repeat my opinion, fail to respond to the other person's points, and be condescending. I'm not mad at you either, I just disagree with your approach to conversation.

Hey you asked how he would contribute to the team and I answered. I'm not making a push for him to take carries away from McCoy, just explaining what value he can add to the team. It does take some time to prepare for two different style of back, and like I said, not knowing whether he is on the field to run, catch, or block is a strategic advantage, however big. If Tolbert were "really good," then he'd be a starter for a team. He's not, but he provides versatility, which is obviously valued by those running OBD.

It's less the slow and plodding, more the physicality and down-hill nature of his running. Just the change from a juking, shifty, quick McCoy to a straight-line runner like Tolbert is beneficial in that it requires opposing defenses to account for both running styles, not to mention the possibility that his last 3 years at fullback make whether he is blocking or carrying the ball an unknown. Tough to have production as a halfback when placed at fullback, but that's what happens when you're behind the likes of DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart (Whittaker and Artis-Payne aren't half bad either). Plus, he's shown ability as a pass-catcher. And if you're going as general as contribution to the team, then leadership and special teams, too. He's a do-it-all type (https://apnews.com/8b8f2058d7c84d6c85a966bd8878e333/veteran-fullback-tolbert-still-has-value-panthers).

Plus, Taylor has a Super Bowl ring. Not that it bears much on the argument regarding him being a capable starting QB for the Bills. But it's a fact.

On the Gillislee point, not only would he be HB2 and as mentioned probably get a hefty amount of carries, but he would also be great insurance in the very possible case McCoy goes down and likely heir apparent to the soon-to-be 29 year old.

^JfH, tough to imagine Mills as the most declined player. Woof...

Would rather wait for someone to get cut than trade away an asset for a HB. If we were going to allocate more resources to the position, then we should have kept Gillislee. (We should have tendered him at the higher amount anyways...). I do not share the optimism for Williams, although I do hope he ends up the player that his Arkansas output projected him to be. Regardless, I think Tolbert ends up solidly the HB2 to McCoy. Could be a great thunder to his lightning. I'm aware he hasn't had much production in his last few years in Carolina, but he was used almost exclusively as a FB. When called upon, he has shown he can be an effective runner - 4 seasons of 4.0 or higher YPC and has scored 7, 8, and 11 rushing TDs in single seasons. Do I think he's ideal? No, but I think he'll be enough considering the yards our halfbacks get before contact.

Team MVP: Dareus Offensive breakout star: Tolbert Defensive breakout star: Ragland Special teams breakout star: Rehkow Most improved: Darby Most declined: Glenn Rookie of the year: White Best 2017 Free Agent: Hyde Worst 2017 Free Agent: Hauschka Bounce Back Player: Watkins (Guy who had a bad 2016) "You still got it": Williams Bonus: Who sets a single season Bills record OR what Bills Season record is broken as a team? Watkins goes for more than 1,368 yards, breaking Moulds' 1998 single season record

Specifically re: the defensive backs, I don't think we have a shutdown corner or probably even a top 10 CB, but what I like is that we have a really solid CB1-3 (maybe even CB4 because McDermott seems to like Johnson), which is crucial given that teams will have 3 WRs out there most of the time. Hyde seems like a big piece of the puzzle. I'm not sold on Poyer, but am open to giving him a shot. Overall, the defensive backfield should not be what holds us back. It would more likely be linebacker scheme fit and defensive line depth, unless Poyer is not who McDermott seems to think he is.

I think Decker is way better than Holmes and Streater. I get that is different from being the same type of player, but that's like saying a team doesn't want DeSean Jackson because they have Roscoe Parrish, assuming Jackson and Parrish are the same type.

Don't believe it. But if it were true, whatever was said to Kyle Williams to get him on board must have been a lie that is bottom-of-the-barrel scummy.

Tend to agree here. If he realizes his potential, all the others will be freed up considerably. Edited that because, like above, we know Dareus' and Hughes' potential, but also know both can be stupid (mostly off and on the field, respectively). Don't care how much raw talent is there, if the guy is riding the bench or losing us big chunks of yards from penalties, then it's offset quite a bit. Re: Williams and Lawson, a big part of the line's production, imho, will be how well Worthy and Washington perform spelling them off.