JC2002

Orton was off yesterday but considering he was on fire to start and then the ridiculous drops it was just crazy . This team is learning how to win and it would have been fantastic if Orton could have pulled us from the fire for a 3rd time but in close games you simply can't muff a punt in a 3pt game in the 4th and you cant want to be a back in the NFL and fumble out the back of the red zone AGAINST GOOD TEAMS . The first rule of being a good football team is to not beat yourself . Orton right now is the answer because hes put us position to where we get to see players in position to make plays that can help us win football games and we are seeing a lot of warts as a result. Ortons long term viability has always in my eyes been dependent on us getting to playoffs.

Orton was always known as a guy who would throw it in the dirt or away rather than take a sack . He stepped into a situation where he has to win over his teammates as well as help develop some young players . I don't think we will see nearly as many sacks on him going forward

well then you would not have a QB as they would simply walk be right back looking at Qbs What the Bill did with Fitz is irrelevant as it is a different team and situation that it was 3 years ago . On one hand you say teams like teh bengals should regret what they gave Dalton based a lot on what he did 3 years ago while at the same time suggesting e make moves based on something that also happened 3 years go . You cant live in the past you should only be making moves based on what you feel is best forthe team now and moving forward not from the fear of something that happened 3 years ago .

there is no lesson to be learned there in regards to Orton as the situations are nothing alike . If anything it says that just because you draft them high and they start off well it does not mean they will get better . The bengals put a good running game and defense around Dalton and he has AJ green and he still cant play well enough for his team to win .

Again you are backtracking and falling into the abyss What does Alex Smith have to do with Drew Brees no one is comparing them and it would be stupid to do as statistically they are not n the same universe . You said Orton and Fitz are alike because they have been on 5 teams ? They both have probably been to hawaii how does that make them alike ? No matter how you try and detract from it THE FACTS are that one QB seems to end up winning and one seems to end up losing is that not the most important stat of all and the one a team that has not been to playoffs in 15 years should care most about ?

So a w-l record is BS you just make this stuff up easy you go along ? Only qbs you choose affect win loss record ? Im guessing we are to believe that Orton didn't make a difference in us winning these last few games games over our previous qb ? Nevermind that we have quotes from players and others on the difference orton has made but hey because it doesn't fit your argument that Orton hand Fitz are no different or that Orton is only slightly better than EJ well than you just leave that out . Fitz over the seasons has gone 0-3, 4-7-1 , 4-4 4-9 6-10 3-6 3-6 4-5 Yeah you just keep trying to convince yourself that Orton and fitz are the same

Maybe because they are not as alike as you may think . Fitz has never finished a season where he has won more than he has loss .. I dont know why you believe that something like that does not matter when you are trying win games .

We haven't made the playoffs in 15 seasons and people are concerned with 5 years from now ? At 31 years old there is no reason Orton couldn't be the guy for the next 3-4 years which is a eternity in the NFL but the playoffs determines that .The numbers say Orton is playing better than he ever has but its tough to calculate how much is simply Orton improving and how much is the rule changes which has given the majority of competent qbs an uptick in numbers . Post-bye I am not worried about him constantly posting huge numbers I want to see the offense expand and grow during a push towards a playoff game.

] With an entire offseason and training camp that statement is 100% true . What we saw being ran are things that EJ has shown that he was capable and good at running in minicamp on through training camp. Did we expect to run the ball better ? Yes but the play calls were based around things EJ were believed to be capable of doing .

But thats just it Orton was not nondescript, the guy was the highest paid backup in the league making over 5 million because was considered a starting caliber QB . I see the league as having 8 elite qbs at the top and those 8 move up and down those 8 slots every year depending on team ,injuries etc . After those 8 the next 10 qbs do almost the same thing they move up and down those 10 slots and sometimes they have a year where they jump into the top 8 . the last time orton started full time he was in that that second tier of qbs in the 8-18 range and had shown that he could have stretches where he could produce like the top 8 . So what he is doing should not be a surprise and I dont think his numbers will stay that high they will fall slightly and he will settle right into that 8-12 range .

Totally different eras and none of those qbs situations are even close to Ortons . Ortons 31 and has over 65 starts before coming here and won half of them. Some of those guys had only started handful of games by the time they hit there 30's and several; were 34-35 years old during these runs . IMO Orton is simply a a QB with starting experience and experience in multiple offensive systems . The Cowboys were paying him over 5 million per year hes not some unicorn . Hes playing better than heh ever has but he hasn't gone from 2 to a 9 hes moved from 5-6 to a 8-9 in play and considering hes in prime years for a QB it shouldn't come as a surprise . The playoffs are what should determine his fate as far as long term deals go .

Orton was forced to adjust to a system not built around his strengths while EJ was playing in system designed around his .

Fans just like the offense have got need help breaking them of the bad habits they learned from EJ. Orton was considered by most a captain checkdown almost entirely based on his time with the Bears so he knows how to play conservative football the probably was that EJ had been so conservative for so long the offense struggled to do anything consistently outside . So Orton of course of going to be ultra aggressive and even take a few sacks because the line is conditioned that the ball is gonna be dumped off in 2 seconds . Orton will take a sack because he knows that down the line he will need that 4 seconds for play that possibly wins the game and so the line has to learn to give him that 4 seconds it may take them until the send of the season get there but I think they will do it . When you read about how Orton responds to the turnovers and compare it to how people respond around here to turnovers its actually pretty funny http://www.rochester...jYUugE8qVKmRzGQ

Fits right into this topic

Of course but I think he will be expecting to be the man for the foreseeable future as opposed to simply breaking the bank.Depending on our cap situation IF that were to happen I would pay him crapload of dough upfront and take the hit immediately and to try to keep the cap hit around what his salary is right now going forward

I think think the belief is that accuracy can be IMPROVED but it cannot be taught sorta like with Tebow .This is the same issue .

and your argument is that changes to NFL passing game are irrelevant because the completion percentages stayed the same ? . . Who really is trying not to admit they are wrong here ?

In 2011 that was a new coach(John Fox) who changed the offensive system to a run heavy scheme going away from the shotgun passing that Mcdaniels ran the a year earlier .Orton was supposed to be traded the Dolphins prior to training camp but the Miami owner nixed the deal at the last minute and so they were forced to keep him and start him or cut him as everyone knew he as better than tebow . But he was not running a system based around his strengths and the continuing development of him as a qb . Orton outside of the tebow crap seems to have been a competent QB

You are comparing different era's ,teams and systems This is where you have to look beyond the stats Orton was a shotgun spread passer and the question in 2004 was whether those types of Qbs could make the transition to the NFL and traditional offenses . Most thought he would be effective in the Patriots system but he as drafted by the bears who was basically a power I team back then . His first two season was spent learning not how to throw but how to operate from under center . Its no surprise that when he went to Denver and joined Josh Mcdaniels in running the pats shotgun system that he started putting up big numbers . His strengths was always reading defenses and accurate delivery in the mid range passing attack Ej coming out of college was a project as a passer and all of his strengths were almost all physical and all his weaknesses were all technique and mental he joined a team that put in a read option attack and tons of plays that are similar to what he ran in college . This is really like comparing apples and oranges . Now Orton has improved tremendously but also league offenses since 2004 have gravitated towards what have always been his strengths.

Again Ortons first 15 games are irelevant stats to compare todays qbs too as the times were totally different . Orton came into the league as a spread shotgun passer but he was drafted by a team that ran power I so he had to learn how to play under center to play for the Bears. We were running read option because of EJ who came into the league as a non passing project . The minute Orton joined the broncos and was in a shotgun passing attack he immediately looked better because that's what he was already good at when he entered the pros . Ej can certainly improve but we have yet to even get an idea of how his skills can translate to the NFL . In Ortons case something that was considered situational (shotgun based offense) eventually grew to be a standard. This offseason we have to take a step back and actually what type of QB EJ can actually be in the NFL if any .

the defense is not a mirage and we should be higher based on that alone . We lost our running game so everyone said and then we have our biggest win yet on the road against a great defensive defense fron who was supposed to make life miserable for our QB. I didn't expect us to jump into the top ten but the Lions are 8th up from 12th having played since we beat them Vikings,Saints ,,Falcons and all three are ranked below us now . Our only loss since we played them have been to the Pats. No movement at all simply doesnt add up

I agree and to add to this This team is learning how to win its a process and with a new qb you are going to be on the conservative side at times . The goal is to continue to get better and improve over time to better in week 8 than you were in 1 and to better in week 17 than you were in week 8 . We have some extremely young players in key positions on this team and so everything is a learning opportunity. So whose to to say some of the play calls were not to simply get certain things on film against one of the best D-lines in football. We feel we are in control of the game so lets try some fancy stuff or lets get some stuff on film to work with this Oline on the next two weeks .

I remember them saying last week that Hogan knows all the wide out positions . If Williams only knows Sammies position then when does he play ? This is not on the coaches MW is not some young guy he is a NFL veteran and he should be putting in the work and forcing them to play him . Instead it seems like he wants the snaps because is is MW not because he has earned them . The one thing I've noticed is how everyone keeps repeating about how Orton has brought an attention to detail and seriousness to preparation in the film room,walk thrus .etc. he is basically the veteran of the receiving corps and I don't think he was setting the example that you would expect from from a vet surrounded by so many young wideouts. This bye week is big for him

Orton was never given the chance because they had Grossman . To say the Bears would have went away from Grossman is just not true . Once the bears discovered they had a top 5 defense and special team and running game after not having been relevant for a long time . They were not going to spend time developing Orton and especially starting a qb competition when they had a 1st rd qb who was coming back off injury . Lets keep in mind that Orton was a SHOTGUN passer a bigtime one at that coming out of Purdue but back then shotgun qbs were not as in style as they are now . The Bears were a I formation team who referred to themselves as getting off the bus running so it shouldn't be a surprise that Orton struggled his rookie year as the Bears didn't change anything . They basically forced Orton to learn a whole new style of play. Once Grossman was back from injury Orton didnt get any reps outside of scout team until 2007 and didn't get a chance to compete for the job in the offseason until 2008 which he then won the job . You say he was demoted but in reality he was always the 3rd string guy in the bears eyes holding the spot until the starter came back his rookie year. Ej was in a situation where he had an entire offense built around things he presumably did well . The comparison just is not there

Orton wanted to start and he used retirement to get out of dallas .The market for Qbs changed dramatically since Manning was a free agent which is when Orton was a free agent . Everyone wanted a young runner but then they started realizing that some of them wont survive the growing pains of those qbs and so veterans are back in demand .Imagine you are Orton behind Romo and see the attention Mckown got last spring .