K-9

One example of systemic oppression of blacks and other minorities is the closure of thousands of voting poll locations that disproportionately impact their communities. A voice of reason. Well done, Zo.

PPPLite! I refer to it as Bastion of the Triggered.

Nobody in particular. It’s a general commentary on the use of conflation, that’s all.

Conflation is a powerful tool when actions can’t be defended.

There are all kinds to be sure. From out of town agitators to professional criminals who make looting a tactical event to just plain A holes. Then there are provocateurs like this guy, who was dressed for the occasion and even remembered to bring the umbrella to avoid the helicopters overhead. I like the little guy with the pizza, he’s got some sand. Those windows he’s smashing are the AutoZone store that went up in flames the first night of the protests in Minneapolis.

George Floyd was never given the chance to be accused of anything.

I’d have to see how Kaep looks after being away from the game so long. Especially since he’s on the shady side of 30. Can’t see him in beantown though. But stranger things have happened.

Political movements aside, Kaep coming back to play may not be in the cards given the time he’s been out and his age. It would be nice if he got a legitimate tryout, though. But the fact Goodell didn’t even mention his name in his announcement on Friday is very telling.

Again, you didn’t carefully read what I said. I said did the black guy you pulled over piss you off so much that you had to choke down your anger. Nothing about choking anyone else. It would certainly piss me off and that would certainly lend itself to a bias that might shape my opinion on these matters. Please read more carefully before putting words in my mouth that I didn’t even think of let alone say out loud. You’ve done that a couple times now. Dismissive is the word that comes to mind when you seem to ignore the many reasons people have to “feel” the way they do. It’s regrettable that vandals, looters, and other bad actors have stained the 99% of peaceful protestors looking for redress. Just like Chauvin et al stain the 99.9% of the good cops out there. It’s not fair to paint with such a broad brush, is it? I was going to disengage from this give and take, but I couldn’t let your insult of my grandfather and uncles go unanswered. After all our discourse, I think I have an idea of where you stand and why. And I respect where that position comes from. Time to move on.

The only reason why you thought I was being duplicitous is because you carelessly read my post referring to the Jim Crow era. I never suggested today’s cops were like Jim Crow era cops. I SAID that, based on that history of systemic oppression/racism of black people, can you understand why people would still be leery of it today? It is fairly recent history after all. It’s a legit question. Especially because we both know, just as black people know, that all of that ingrained racism didn’t magically leave the hearts and minds of those that practiced it for generations just because the laws were changed. If I were going to call you a racist, I would call you a racist. You like putting words in people’s mouths. I was asking if your previous reference to blacks being resentful for being pulled over just for being black pissed you off or not. That’s a fair question given your take on all this and the fact that your brought it up. I was wondering if that experience lent itself to a bias that shapes your view on these matters and it’s perfectly understandable if it does. Just as a protestor’s bias might shape theirs. I find your dismissive attitude about “feelings” naive. You sound as if just pointing out statistic after statistic should automatically convince people they just need to be rational because they wouldn’t be so upset if they only knew the statistical facts. Or that people should feel better simply because there are “so few” of these incidents. Really? Even when you yourself acknowledge that one is too many? Regarding your snide advice to go read a history book, I have to laugh. Let’s just say I’m confident in my knowledge of certain historical events given the years I’ve spent studied them. But you’re right. Sundown laws, for example, were certainly emblematic of institutionalized racism in many other areas around the country. And again, that history lends itself to current day worries by the black community that those sentiments (feelings, I know) still exist, even if not in official codified practice. If it were my people, I’d be leery, too.

You seem to enjoy pissing contests more than anything else as your refusal to address my other points suggests. Like the historical context I mentioned for instance. Have unarmed black men been gunned down or not? Was excessive force used against black men or not? Recently? Ever? Do people have a legit reason to be suspicious because of our history or not? Spouting numbers as a defense against those abuses does little to bolster your case. Seems more like a deflection in an attempt to avoid the subject. You can spout all the statistics you want, but the stink of systemic oppression of black people is still in the air. No direct evidence to be sure, but the circumstantial evidence overwhelms. The stench is inescapable. Your posts suggest these protesters have no legitimate reason to complain. Why? I suspect it’s personal with you given your previous post referencing black people having their feelings hurt when being pulled over only because they’re black. Has a black person actually said that to you when you pulled them over? Have they said worse things? Did they provoke an outrage in you that you had to choke down? The model my grandfather and uncles represented is still the model to strive for today. They were as far from Jim Crow cops as can be. Serving in Buffalo, they weren’t subject to Jim Crow era laws, anyway. They served and protected in the communities they lived in. Took pride in their jobs and enjoyed being positive role models in the community. Your bullcrap attempt at conflating their era to today is pitiful. Insult me all you want, but there was no need to insult them or their fine records as police officers.

Look, the very nature of their jobs commands a high level of benefit of the doubt. And I try to afford them that at every turn. But there is also a level of unaccountability involved as well. And you’re right, their unions will go to extraordinary lengths to protect even a bad cop if they can. There seems to have been a transformation from my grandfather’s and uncles’ times as LEOs from guardians who serve and protect to more of a warrior mentality. Indeed, with all this surplus military equipment now in police forces, they can sometimes resemble a paramilitary organization rather than community protectors. Again, poor optics. Even my own discourse with them over the last 20 years or so has taken on a different tone. Much of that may have to do with the added pressure of more readily available public scrutiny, the continued decay in many of the communities they serve in, the ease at which criminals can arm themselves with ever increasing lethality, etc. Perhaps all that serves to tighten their circle, but the onus is not on us to adjust. It’s on them.

FFS, how many times do I have to say it, I SUSPECT racism plays a part, but I have no tangible evidence. What evidence would suffice for you? I mean other than direct evidence like a cop recorded spewing racial epithets? Has there ever been a time in our nation’s history where systemic racism existed? Like in the Jim Crow south, for instance? What, it all magically disappeared when laws were rewritten? People on police forces had a sudden change of heart because people were awarded civil rights protection? This was in my lifetime. Can you honestly claim black people don’t have just cause to be leery given the not so distant history here? I’ll say it one last time because this has grown tiresome: I don’t think it’s about proving whether a cop is racist or not. It’s about whether he’s fit to serve; about purging bad cops from the force. Period. Motive doesn’t matter. These men were BLACK. We witnessed yet another murder on TV. The optic is enough to fuel the suspicion and tensions. Stop trying to make it sound like people have no legit reason to complain or that everyone is stupid for having such a visceral reaction. Or that we are all lemmings because we just don’t want to take the time to break everything down statistically like that somehow explains it better. Lemmings come in all colors. And does this all come down to hurt feelings for you? Actually, never mind. Sorry your feeling were hurt if someone called you a racist. Have a good night.

I’d be interested in a link to that philly study

Is your point then that these protestors have nothing to complain about? Is racism REALLY the key issue here or is it unfit cops?

Hoodwinked? Not even close. And did you not read the part where I said I have no tangible evidence that Chauvin is a racist? I don’t claim Chauvin is a racist. Indeed, I claim it’s immaterial to the cause. The optic is enough. That’s obvious. In the absence of someone witnessed actually saying racist things, what proof would suffice for you? Ok, so unarmed black men seen on video getting killed by cops wasn’t racist. Why then? Why the ultimate use of excessive force? And please don’t hand me the company line about them being in fear for their lives. Regarding our exchange around the use of the word “anecdotal”, I was disagreeing with the idea that the Floyd murder in itself wasn’t “anecdotal.” You were completely centered around the idea of racism and I was approaching it in a much larger sense.

You should re-read the post you initially engaged me about because I clearly stated the NFL now agrees with the players and protesters that there is systematic oppression (racism) against blacks. Read the article and you’ll see that. If it makes you feel any better, I suspect Chauvin is a racist, but I don’t have tangible proof at this point. When his record is made public (against the protestations of his union I suspect) I won’t be surprised to see it. But I get it, unless a cop is actually recorded saying racist things, then he’s not racist. How convenient. As I said, I don’t believe whether Chauvin or cops like him being racist is important as the optic the murder of Floyd suggests. I think there’s a difference between scapegoating cops as the epitome of all evil vs. some #######s throwing things at them while they are on riot duty. Again, the movement is about having bad cops expunged and the coverups for their actions stopped. There needs to be full transparency at all times in these matters. I can’t blame people for being skeptical when there is enough video proof to suggest a cop was never in danger for his life while he emptied a clip into an unarmed black man. Sorry. You don’t have to tell me the vast, vast majority of cops are good. I’ve known that all my life. I’m also on record, I believe in the Brees thread, that defunding police would actually work against the interests of the BLM movement. Lots of things get said when tensions are high and I doubt much, if any defunding will occur. My apologies for mis-characterizing that thin blue line in that manner. I’ve known it’s true meaning my entire life as well. It was a snarky remark and has no place in the discourse. Again, my apologies.

Whether Floyd’s murder was a racist act or not is for those that need to argue minutiae. He was BLACK. I’m willing to entertain he just may have been a psychotic F who was having a really bad day, but his victim was BLACK. That is the optic reality. Racist or not is a secondary concern, but it’s a fair question. Let’s talk about those leaders who have failed those communities indeed. That’s a huge part of the problem. And the current movement acknowledges that reality, including black leaders you seem to think are asleep at the wheel. Cops aren’t being scapegoated. BAD cops, ROGUE cops, UNFIT cops are being called out and all those good cops and their unions who have looked the other way in order to keep that thin blue line intact are being asked to stop doing that. Chauvin was cited 19 times for various actions unbecoming a LEO. Why was he even allowed to be where he was on that fateful day? I submit his union representation was a huge advocate for allowing him to remain an officer just as they have been for decades. “I was in fear for my life”, is a mantra and is cited in EVERY case I’ve researched. Can you honestly say that the police have done an exemplary job of policing themselves in the history of our country? Can you honestly say black people don’t have a historical reason to be mistrustful? Believe what you need to. Suffice to say you’re wasting your time trying to convince me these protests have it all wrong, though.

Outstanding food for thought here and it illustrates why I feel those protests during the anthem were so powerful; that juxtaposition of the great idea America represents and the very symbol of it. I don’t conflate anthem with flag, though. The idea of America was hatched, it’s tenets put in writing, and blood shed for its birth to take hold well before Francis Scott Key penned his poem.

Ok, since my previous answer got deleted by a mod, I’ll try again. No. I don’t have “white guilt” and I’m highly suspicious of anyone who would even use the term. I’ve spent years seriously researching the Civil War; both the lead up to it and, more importantly, the aftermath and the politics it created. Those years included visits to many southern libraries, state houses, and other repositories of archived information to study speeches, letters, etc. by confederate politicians that drove policy. Again, both before and after the civil war. I’ve never suffered from “white guilt” (whatever tf that is) but I realized I suffered from great ignorance of certain events and the people who shaped them. Let’s just say that in educating myself through that exhaustive research, I’ve come to understand a certain level of romanticism and mythology had impacted my understanding of things. It’s about shedding ignorance and race has nothing to do with it. There is no such thing as white guilt, imo. Only ignorance and that holds no race in favor of another.

Asked and answered previously.

That said, I condone forgiveness.

Regrading #2, that was my point; that in spite of what the opinion of their fan base might be and the potential impact on their business, they still issued a statement fully supporting his right to protest during the anthem. I remember all the grand pronouncements made around here about how the NFL and Nike would be really hurt financially when the masses of enraged fans boycotted them over CP’s and others’ anthem protests. That never happened. I remember that enraged Steelers fan who burned all his Steeler gear in his backyard, though. Ooh, that really showed ‘em!

Do you have a clue?

1.) Hyperbole is a time honored literary tool used for emphasizing a larger point. I know you know this. It’s possible CP knows this, too, and he didn’t see the need to insult the intelligence of people by having to explain that to us. It was clear to me he was being purposely hyperbolic to emphasize his larger point so I suspect others who also saw how clear that was chose to disregard that just to discredit his message. That said and in retrospect, CP should have explained the reason for the hyperbole to better serve his own interests. Then again, that wouldn’t have satisfied anyone was outraged and offended. 2.) The 49ers organization supported his decision to protest during the anthem.