OldTimer1960

They'd be lucky to get a single 3rd for Evans. He isn't a #1 WR in the NFL. He is an adequate deep threat in an offense that has other weapons, but he isn't really in the top 30 WRs in the NFL. Guys like him are not a dime-a-dozen, but aren't that much more expensive.

Will there be a thread calling for the Bills to sign every player cut over the next few weeks? I understand that the Bills are in a position where their roster isn't very good, but signing a bunch of cast-offs from other teams isn't going to improve this team very much.

I love the point that one poster made about how odd it is that there are a lot of people down on Maybin even though he shows effort and yet there are many Edwards supporters even though he doesn't show (outwardly) any passion at all. I have posted my concerns and frustrations with Maybin, but I do try to be balanced and point out that I've never read one thing that suggested that he isn't trying. He clearly has trained his body as he doesn't have an ounce of fat and he has added muscle. He also seems to hustle most/all of the time. I think many people's frustration is due to how high he was drafted and the return on investment so far. I think he'd be pretty popular if he had been some lower round draft choice showing his athleticsm and would be considered a "diamond in the rough" - which might still be true.

Thank you for the perspective. Some folks here think every top-10 pick is an immediate star for every other team, but that the dumb Bills always F it up. Reality is that half the top 10 picks might be very good, one or two great and half will struggle. I don't think Tyson Jackson, Andre Smith and Darrius Heyward-Bey are any further along than Maybin - not saying that's great, but it does mean it isn't unique. Also, IMHO, Maybin is no longer than undersized. He does still need to gain some strenght, but it is his pass rush moves and leverage that I think need to be improved more. Few LBs are going to be able to bull-rush an OT. Maybin's first half consisted of him always trying to beat the OT wide upfield. If you have no counter move, most competent OTs can handle that no matter how fast the LB is. Maybin just started some counter moves in the 2nd half, spin was the first. Now, why that is such a mystery to an as good an athlete as Maybin appears to be is beyond me. But I haven't written him completely off. He has talent and seems to work, so there may be hope.

Of the bunch, I see McKelvin as the least-bust-like. He is very talented, missed most of last year due to injury and is behind a very good veteran in Florence. Maybin concerns me more in that he is behind a career backup, but he is only 21 and would only be going into his Sr year in college now. I do count McCargo as a bust late in round one, but it is hard to fault them for taking him. He was pretty highly thought of coming out. It isn't like he didn't have supporters and most likely would have gone in the next 10 picks if the Bills hadn't taken him. Look at recent can't-miss prospects like DTs Ryan Sims, Kentwan Balmer and Phillip Merling for evidence that 1st round pick doesn't necessarily equal good player.

While I am concerned that Maybin hasn't beaten out the journeyman Torbor, I do think it is too early to call him a bust. He is clearly a very talented athlete and he is barely 21, so he will likely fill out more thout at his listed 245-250lbs, he isn't exactly small. He does have a smaller lower body "power pack". I don't know that McKelvin running behind Florence is a big sign that McKelvin is a bust. Florence was a highly sought after player in FA a few years ago and got a big contract (I think from Alt). He wasn't able to play up to his contract after his FA cash-in, but he played well for the Bills last year and by all reports has carried that over. It isn't like McKelvin is behind a midling career backup like Maybin is to Torbor. As long as we are at it, let's be clear that a large percentage of first round picks don't pan out as real difference makers. Sure, many of the real true "impact" players come from the first round, but truthfully if a team gets a solid starter from a #1 pick - even in the top 10 of a draft, that team did pretty well. For example, I wish that Donte Whitner were another Ed Reed or Troy Polomolu, but he looks like he is going to be a good starter and leader, so that is still pretty good.

It is very disappointing that this is even an issue. From watching practice, it is very clear that Maybin has far better athletic ability, but yet he can't get past a midling journeyman on the depth chart. I hope that Maybin comes on and becomes the player his athletic ability would allow him to be, but this is not a good sign.

I second this post. The reality is that no team is going to give up even a half-decent starting LT for Marshawn Lynch. Lynch's performance last year was not good and add in his off-field problems, this once-suspended player isn't worth much in trade.

I don't understand the strong dislike, even hate, towards any of these players. I understand there being disappointment that some of the players drafted highly haven't lived up to their draft status - every team has that. Many of the guys on the initial list, though, are real try-hard guys who work very hard to maximize their abilities. In that list I include: Donte Whitner Chris Kelsay Keith Ellison Ryan Fitzpatrick Ashton Youboty We can be disappointed that the above guys maybe don't have the impact that we want, but I am very confident that they give their best. I think that is something to cheer for, not to hate them for. Also from the initial list, I believe that James Hardy is working very hard after being injured. Every interview I have seen with him seems to indicate that he has the right attitude to maximize his talent. If he doesn't make it, maybe it is because he just doesn't have the ability at 6'5" to be shifty enough to get away from NFL level CBs. Aaron Maybin certainly appears to be in great shape. I can't speak to his effort, but the times I've been to camp he seems to be working hard and obviously works hard in the gym. Trent Edwards is a guy who doesn't come across as well in interviews as maybe we'd like, but I do think he is trying hard. I'll admit that I don't think it is highly likely that he'll succeed, but I respect the effort. About the only guy on the list who appears to be failing due to lack of effort is McCargo and I can't say that for sure. He just doesn't look like he is in the kind of shape that he needs to be in. I think he is very quick for a guy his size and he occasionally can knife into the backfield to make a play, but not often enough. At any rate, my opinion is that (most of) these guys should be cheered for their effort. These are the kinds of guys we should want to cheer. Maybe any lack of production is really because they don't have enough natural ability to excell on the NFL level. That isn't something to hate someone for.

He might have been motivated by the fact that Miami traded him away. While I agree that isn't a very sportsman-like thing to say, I am POSITIVE that there is a LOT worse than that said every week in every game. I also don't blame him for being gloating a bit at the team that dumped him.

I too have been concerned that Maybin's lack of production and that right now he is behind so-so Torbor are signs that he is a bust, but I watched him at last night's practice and I can definitely say that the guy is a true thoroughbred as an athlete. He just moves so much more smoothly than any of the other LBs there and his speed is evident. He is clearly in great shape, too, so there should be little concern about his work ethic. Now, will that translate to production? I don't know, but the tools are definitely there.

It would be a shame to have to release Schobel and then watch him go play for another team. If the issue is that his salary is too high to trade, but that he wants to play elsewhere, then perhaps he should workout a reduced salary contract w Buffalo which will allow them to trade him. I can't imagine it is a salary cap issue for the Bills as I think they are way under the "real" cap. They need to try to leverage something out of this, even if it is only a 4th or 5th round choice in next year's draft. They treated Schobel very well - paying him above what a good, but not great player is worth. He should be willing to work with them to facilitate a trade where they can both get what they want.

OK, I got Reggie Torbor's first name wrong. It doesn't make the point any less relevant - Torbor is a midling back-up caliber guy who has kicked around the league and right now he's running ahead of the 10th overall pick in last year's draft - the guy who was so good that he didn't have to attend training camp. Now, I DO understand that Mabyin is still very young, he'd only be going into his Senior year this Fall, but he just has shown so little. I *hope* that he comes along, but I admit I am losing patience with him. I was a tad harsh on McKelvin as he missed most of last year, but #1 picks need to be starters or they are disappointments. If McKelvin plays nickel and kick returner this year, then he will maybe not be a bust, but it would certainly be a disappointment for as high as he was picked - kind of like Reggie Bush, part-time contributor on offense and kick returner. I think if Whitner were a solid starter, then there would be no competition from Bryan Scott or George Wilson - neither of whom are solid-starter caliber. Regarding Lynch, if the 11th overall pick a few years is running #3 on your RB depth chart, that is a problem. I too, liked his effort a couple of years ago, but he was awful last year coming back over-weight after his suspension. Heck, what exactly did he have to do for those 4 weeks except workout. I'm 50 y.o and I work all day, but I find time to workout daily. Now, I know that the level of workout and NFL player needs to do is far above what I do, but the point is he had all day and he surely could have found a couple of hours a day to stay in shape. Again, I very much hope that some or all of these guys get it together and become productive starters. I am not rooting against them, but the fact that 5 recent #1 draft picks are locked in battles to hopefully crack the starting lineup (actually, McCargo is in a battle to even make the team) is not a good situation to be in.

I am the first to acknowledge that it isn't reasonable to expect every first round draft choice to blossom into a star player. It isn't just the Bills, every team has misses early. However, the Bills have had several big misses in the recent past that help explain why the team is re-building continuously. I know that it is early in camp and we can hope that the following guys start to live up to their draft status, but for most of them, they've been around long enough that I expect we've seen their best. I know that I could go back further, but we don't need to: 1. John McCargo - taken late in round 1 has shown an occasional flash of quickness to knife into the backfield, but he' played very little and is in danger of not making the team at all this year. 2. Donte Whitner - 8th overall pick should be at least a good starter, if not an impact player. Whitner is struggling to even be a starter on a weak defense. He hasn't been as bad as some other players chosen in the same neighborhood (Jason Allen, Ernie Sims, Matt Leinart), but they need more from him than to be "competing" to be the starter with the likes of Bryan Scott and ex-WR George Wilson. 3. Marshawn Lynch - there were red-flags on this guy's character coming into the draft, but the Bills' ignored them and he's been in trouble more than he's be productive. He has some talent, but does he want to play enough? Likely, 3rd back in the rotation - not good enough for as high as he was picked. In fairness to the Bills, there were a lot of flops in that first round, but super-star CB Darrelle Revis was selected 2 picks after Lynch. 4. Leodis McKelvin - I think he is the most likely of this group to improve his production, but the Bills need more out of a high number 1 pick than to be a nickel back. They could have had a great LT, if they had chosen Ryan Clady - ouch! 5. Aaron Maybin - Maybin has shown nothing so far and now he is running with the 2nd team defense even though a job is wide open with the loss of Schobel and he's behind Chris Kelsay and Jeff(?) freaking Torbor?

I think the bigger deal, if he holds out, is Troup. The guy was fortunate to be picked in the 2nd round after a fairly non-descript college career at a good, but lower level college. He needs to be in camp day one working on getting to be good enough to see the field. The Bills raved about his work ethic and how he "just wants to play", so let's see him back it up by being in camp day one. Spiller's case I "get", but don't like. This whole garbage about slotting should be replaced by a rookie wage scale that is based on the round/position within round that a player is drafted in. That is essentially what they do with this slotting, but everyone sits around until a couple of guys sign to see what % increase they are getting over last year's guy drafted in the same round/position.

I have to take issue with this. There is paying for performance and there is over-paying for performance. If you over-pay certain players on your roster vs. their performance level, it will hurt you in two areas: 1. there will be discontent on the team as other players will want to be compensated "equitably" to the over-paid players 2. there will be less money to spend on the rest of the team. The reality is that there is a limit to what any team can reasonably spend. It is a function of their revenue and the salary cap. Spending within a given team's revenue is NOT an indictment of a team's owner as "cheap". It is fiscal responsibility. Reality is that if Mr. Wilson spent more than his revenue, then he'd be more inclined to move the team or sell the team to someone who would move the team. There is a balance to achieve. Now, if one wishes to take issue with the Bills' selection of coaches and players, then I think that is fair. IMHO, for a team in the lower third of revenue, I think it is imperative to be as efficient as possible when it comes to coaching and player selection. Now, it isn't necessarily fair to hold them to a higher standard than the other teams when it comes to this, however, I think it would be prudent to spend a little more on coaching and scouting since the margin for error is less than with Dallas, NY, Wash and other BIG cities.

While I'd stop short of saying that Quinn can't be a good starting QB, I would say that no other team in the league thought that he was a legitimate candidate to become that based on the 5ht and 6th round picks that Cleveland was able to land for him. If any team thought he had a good shot to be a competent starter, there would have been better compensation for Cleveland. Then, to add to that, the team that acquired Quinn turned around and traded a lot to move up and draft Tim Tebow - no sure thing himself. I'd say that the opinion around the league is that this guy is a try-hard backup QB that won't embarrass you if he has to play, but isn't a winning starting QB, either. As bad as Trent Edwards has been, I think he has shown more under equivalent hardships.

My memories of watching the Bills goes back to the early-70s and my opinion is that Schobel was a very very good player - not a super-star, but very good and consistent for a long time. Not many players have the career that he had. No, he wasn't Bruce Smith, but he was a credit to the team and the community. I'd put him somewhere in the neighborhood of Daryl Talley - a very good player, though Talley had the knack of making significant game-changing plays that Schobel couldn't quite match. Still, pretty similar IMHO. Having Schobel retire is a blow to the team.

The Seahawks gave up practically nothing for White and some other guy that they got in the deal, too. They swapped spots with Tennessee in the 4th and 6th rounds which when translated probably cost them the equivalent of a 5th and 7th for two players. Not a great lost investment. The scoop I read is that while White has lost a lot of weight, his effort was extremely below par in comparison to his teammates and they cut him to be clear that won't be tolerated.

It was all based on trade-offs. * OL need vs. DL need (DL need was considered even more important by the Bills - at least it appears so). * Best player available vs. need (Bills apparently thought that Spiller was much better than the available OTs such as Davis and Bulaga). Sometimes improvement in one position can be had by improving other positions around it. I imagine that the Bills look at it that "we need to improve the offense. One way to do that is to improve the LT position and keep our OK-to-good RBs. Another way is to take a dynamic playmaker at RB and hope that he can do more with the mediocre lines than Lynch and Jackson did."

What makes Dan Williams or Bryan Bulaga a "safer" choice than CJ Spiller? I don't see it. It isn't as if Spiller was a one-year producer or has questionable character/work ethic or a history of major injuries.

In the big picture, I think the Bills addressed many of their biggest needs. They clearly didn't have enough high picks to address all of their needs, so necessarily some went unmet (OT and QB). I think that the focus on defense make sense even in light of the needs on the OL. The Bills were abysmal in stopping the run last year and would never be much good until they can shore that up. I think that if the run defense has been improved with the addition of Troup and Carrington and the conversion to 3-4, that will give the secondary even more chances to shine. The offense got little help other than Spiller, but he may help a great deal. With the group of QBs they have, they need to be a run-first offense mixing in some play-action passes. They probably didn't find an upgrade at LT nor did they find a QB to compete for the starters job (at least this year), but you can't fix it all this year. In my mind, Spiller the RB has a better chance to make a major impact as a rookie than any of the rookie QBs would have. In round 1, the Bills got a concensus top-rated offensive playmaker in Spiller. They had their choice of all of the NTs (except Dan Williams) in round 2 and they obviously preferred Torell Troup to the other candidates including Cody, Linval Joseph and a name I heard here a lot: Cam Thomas. Just because the draft prognosticators didn't have Troup rated above those guys, it doesn't mean he can't play. Look at how highly Cam Thomas was rated by some and he didn't go until the 5th or 6th round. In round 3, they got a big DE that they feel can be part of a rotation at DE this year and hopefully grow into a starter eventually. Round 4 brought an athelete with not a lot of starting WR experience and only 1 year of production. However, in the 4th to take a chance on a 6'2 3/4" 210 pounder with 4.42 speed seems reasonable. I am sure that we'd have all preferred that they take an OT before the 5th round, but they clearly knew that T was a need, but apparently felt that either defense was a bigger need or that those defensive players were better than the options available at OT. A couple of DL-to-LB conversions from small schools were the remaining picks. Arthur Moats sounds quite interesting from what I've been able to read about him. I am reasonably happy with the draft. It feels good to have two scouts like Nix and Modrak running the draft. Last year's draft looks to have been excellent with a chance to get better if Maybin improves with a full offseason and training camp. Let's hope that this draft continues that trend.

I don't think anyone is debating that finding a good pass rusher is a need for this team. However, they have other needs, too. A bigger need than pass rush is finding a way to stop the run. If they can't do that then they have little hope of generating a pass rush even if Bruce Smith is reincarnated. If you can't stop the run, it is rarely 3rd and long. Trying to ring up sacks on 3rd and 2 is very very difficult, plus it makes you compromise your pass defense by having to bring extra players up to help stop the run.

I concur. Just look at how little Tennessee got for LenDale White. I don't remember all the details but they traded White and some other player to move up 7 spots in the 4th round and about the same in the 6th round. They got the equivalent of about a 5th round pick for LenDale White. As much of a headache as Lynch is, he is certainly worth much more than a 4th or 5th round pick to the team and I would say that is about all that teams were willing to part with based on what Tenn got for White.