Thurman#1

Limeaid, that's a reasonable question, I think. That kind of thing has certainly happened a lot in the NFL and also in Buffalo in the old days. Bruce Smith, certainly, but many others. That said, I think the answer is a clear "no." Dawkins bought into the process as has this team, really, and you can't improve every day when you're not practicing. He's seen in his own career what happens when he doesn't go all in, he saw that during his second year and publicly owned up to it and committed to changing. He's not breaking any rules, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether he's giving it all and whether he believes that's what he needs and wants to do. Bruce's teammates knew he was dogging it. They just didn't care. Today's Bills are behind a different philosophy, and today's training camp isn't comparable to the old days of two-a-days and no rules on padded practices and so on. This group would know or very clearly suspect what Dawkins was doing. This locker room would not accept that kind of behavior the way they did in the old days, as it would essentially mean, "Yeah, you guys need to improve 1% every day, but me, I'm good. I'm there." It's not the way this team rides.

Yeah. Hart appeared to be brought in as the security blanket for potential problems like this. Turns out I don't feel all that secure.

We have some indicators. He's missed two weeks. That's more than most have missed. It's been announced that he's not ready or even close now. Most who've come back from COVID have not had that kind of announcement. That's not proof but it certainly is evidentiary that he had a bit more serious case than many have had. Not that surprising now that the Delta variant is out there now, while last year guys didn't have to deal with that. Guesses and guarantees are not the same thing. As many have said here, not being vaccinated could very easily have McD sending messages. We don't know for sure who's vaccinated and who's not, but the team likely knows. Messages here might make an awful lot of sense even if he came in in great shape before getting sick.

I know. And it's so easy for receivers to make plays even if the QB doesn't throw to him.

If it were really all about fame you'd have about 3 OLs, 100 QBs, 50 RBs, 50 WRs, maybe 30 sack artists and a few mashers like Butkus. It's got to be mostly about worthiness.

First ballot? Gore? Don't kid a kidder. Eventually? Could be.

Agreed that we need to see how it goes. But I don't think we know much about how the younger players from the last two or three years can be. Last year's lack of an off-season was a major handicap for younger guys. Took away a lot of their chances to grow and develop. Last season was like none before and I believe we'll find a lot of guys league-wide making major "unexpected" leaps forward this year, particularly young ones.

There absolutely is a lot riding on this season. But they really haven't been rushing on this D "with relative ease / for big gains in the past few years." 2018 4.2 defensive YPC 2019 4.3 defensive YPC 2020 4.6 defensive YPC When Star was in front of the LBs on early downs, and Edmunds and Milano were mostly healthy, the Bills were pretty good to decent against the run. It was last year they got significantly worse. And then better at the end of the year as they got healthy.

Two years from now? Maybe. The cap will be soaring again. Now, certainly not. It'll depend on how he plays this year. I can't imagine they'd give him a contract like this now. Edmunds is a Pro Bowler. But Leonard is an All-Pro, a three-timer. That's a major difference.

He's not likely to be a one hit wonder, agreed. This is a wild overreaction in trying to make Josh's first season look far better than it actually was. Josh did not play well that year, he just didn't. What he did was show that he had a ton of guts, that he would never quit, that he was a leader, and that he had flashes, including the ability to run far better than we had supposed he could. He was certainly NOT the only reason they won any games. And that's not an opinion, it's a stone-cold fact, unless you want to argue that our Week 10 41-10 win over the Jets was won entirely by Josh's cheering from the bench as Matt Barkley played QB the whole game. "Those of us who actually watched the games know the only reason the Bills managed to win any games that year ..." is a phrase that makes absolutely zero sense that season or any other. It's a team game. There were many reasons we won a few games that year. The main reason was that the defense was very good. Our six wins that year included a 13-12 win against Tennessee, a 14-13 win against the Lions, but more than that, in our 6 wins, only one time did the opposing team score more than 17 points, and in only two of those six wins did an opponent score more than 13 points. In those six games, our opponents scored a total of 79 points, an average of 13.2 PPG. That had an awful lot to do with many or most of those wins. Like many Bills fans, you're being wildly oversensitive here. After the second year, few were saying "Josh was still a bust," as you say.. A few trolls and curmudgeons here or there, sure. But most were saying that his major improvement, particularly in his accuracy, meant that he had a chance to be a good one, though he absolutely needed to continue to make serious improvement. Did some still say he might be a bust? Yeah, it was still a reasonable possibility. Did some say they thought he would be a bust? Yeah, it was guessing, which is reasonable. But few were saying "Josh was still a bust," as if it was a fact. It simply didn't make much sense at that point. Yeah, there were a few ... who's that guy looks like a ferret with a hundred dollar haircut? Him, Domonique Foxworth, they were out there, but there were few of them. There was still a possibility he wouldn't be the long-term franchise guy, a decent possibility at the time, but his rate of improvement and the way he'd improved his accuracy meant there was also a very solid chance that he could be that franchise guy. That was the general opinion. There may well be many fans on fan sites hoping this contract will turn out to be a bad decision for the Bills. Mostly simply because they'd rather see their team get a great QB than the Bills, that they'd rather see their team have a shot to reach SBs for a decade than the Bills. It's still possible, but that's not the way to bet. Last year was a revelation, a guy playing at an elite level. The reaction around the league among the pundits has been wildly positive about this contract, and for good reason. It's a risk for both sides, but a good calculated one, for both sides. The consensus recognizes this.

Bill Belichick for one.

"Signing bonus: Money earned by a player for signing his contract. Typically paid out within the first 12-18 months. Prorated against the salary cap for the life of the contract (five-season maximum). This is how the Cowboys could afford to give Dak Prescott a $66 million signing bonus this offseason. For cap purposes, Prescott's signing bonus counts for $13.2 million against the Cowboys' salary cap for each of the next five seasons (four-year contract plus 2025, a void year)." https://www.nfl.com/news/2021-nfl-free-agency-glossary-all-the-terms-you-need-to-know It can't be counted against the cap till it's actually paid out, but can then be prorated for five years after that.

This is true. Not all of them manage, but if you do, it's ideal. And if you get the space, you might easily never use it, and it gets rolled over to next year. Either way, no problem.

That's really a good point, Shaw. Hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you say that, I think you're right on target. There just aren't the usual number of niggling details and problems and worries.

Fair enough that they've had problems with DL so far. But it's ridiculous to say that it's been a failure when they had one of the three or four best Ds in football in 2019 and were close to that in 2018. Star has been a success. Phillips looked like one until the injury. And while Murphy just didn't seem able to be what they'd hoped in terms of the pass rush at all, the others seem to have been greatly affected by the loss of Star last year, and its knock-on effects. It meant that guys were put into positions they were not supposed to be in, particularly Jefferson. I'm a lot less worried about run defense than pass defense. When Star has been on the field, the run D has been pretty decent. Pass rush has consistently been not so much a weakness as just not a strength except when sacks have been schemed up. The rookies, and Epenesa's development, do look like they may have a real effect there, but it's really too early to say after one padded practice. Agreed it's not a one-year turnaround, though, and that hopefully we see it fully pay off this year. My sister lives in Fort Collins so I get up there around once a year or so. Really nice little town. Last time (two years ago, pre-COVID) we saw that insane costumed bike race, and we always get up to the reservoir and rent a boat. Awesome. And I don't know the name of the restaurant, but every time we rent a boat, my brother-in-law goes and buys a giant load of barbecue somewhere, and oh, my God, is that good barbecue.

True, and maybe it's also true that they are saying to themselves, "Did I really do that? Jump onto a pile with a guy with a red jersey under it? What the hell is wrong with me? I deserve this and so do we all. Jeez, that was stupid." I'm willing to believe that Judge isn't a good coach, but there's too little evidence to say that so far, IMO.

As a guy who pays for both of those, I'd disagree. Both are a bargain.

Brady? Yes. He worked every single year with a guy on his throwing fundamentals. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/22/tom-house-baseball-football-tom-brady The same guy, Tom House, also worked with Brees, and was extensively responsible for helping him recover from his devastating injury. https://www.si.com/nfl/video/2016/08/02/meet-man-who-makes-your-favorite-qb-better Cutcliffe is most famous for helping Peyton learn to deal with his shoulder injury, but he was his coach at Tennessee and Peyton had visited him before the injury. https://balldurham.com/2020/08/19/duke-football-david-cutcliffe-offers-2023-top-qb-prospect-arch-manning/ And Peyton was famous right from college for working relentlessly on his mechanics, all the time, and every year.

He's a good player. It's simply a matter of slots. We'll have to cut some good players this year.

Funny thing is, most of the people on here have been saying this for years, with no sarcasm. I've been fighting this battle for decades, and most folk on the boards would tell me it was impossible. Only after we got a guy who clearly needed to improve in that area did many make the sudden realization that it actually might be possible after all.

LOL to anyone who thinks they know what's going to happen this early. And no, it's really not pretty safe at all. Again, way way too early.

Equating yourself to Schrute on this issue? NIce. You've indeed missed the point on it regularly. Getting Lotulelei back does indeed appear to be important.

You absolutely could be right. And a QB's development greatly depends on his environment. Darnold was delayed, sidetracked and probably hurt by the last group there. But I think Wilson could be a good one. Yup. Totally agree here. It was only a day or two, but not a good look.

Allen made Diggs. Diggs certainly helped Allen out a ton, though.

Agreed, it does matter. IMO most of the problem with the run game was in the line play, though. Beane has said the same thing. And I also thought they were effective last year. Far from great, but effective. 4.4 and 4.3 YPC are pretty damn solid, especially when their distance before contact was one of the lowest in the league. I think we're maybe getting pretty close here. See you around the boards.