Mike Williams

[Captain Caveman]

That was an assumption made by many, I don't think we could know that for sure. He still was not lining up against the other team's best DE. Blind side or not, I would put my best blocker where the most dangerous DE is lined up regardless of the QB's blindside. Their other QB's were right handed, what if they end up starting? Bottom line is that because of these issues, there was a risk to Williams that was not present with McKinnie and a number of other players on the board that year. And this isn't hind sight, I made this exact argument on this board prior to that draft and its not like I was the only one with those concerns. No one saw him becoming this big of a bust but plenty thought he was not our best option.

 

I don't have any problem with you saying you thought he wasn't the best pick for us that year. I don't know or care what you thought before the draft. But to insinuate that he wasn't considered the top tackle in the draft by most of the "experts" is once again bull . I've provided a link from Kiper earlier in the thread where you can read who he considered to be the best OT in the draft, and also where he talks about some very real concerns about McKinnie (some of which have been validated, although McKinnie certainly has had the better career.) Unfortunately, most other draft sites don't keep up their previous archives, but most other sites also had Mike Williams as the top OT in the draft.

 

And regarding the other team's most dangerous DE, I would assume that most teams will roll their best DE to the opposite side when facing up against a lefty QB, since the reason they're usually on the right side to begin with is to go after the QB's blindside. I don't know how much difference there is in rushing from the left or right side, but I doubt it's as big of a change as an OL switching sides. Does anyone have any other input on this?

[jester43]

Ill never understand the reasoning behind drafting him. The consensus top LT was Bryant Mckinnie, who has been starting at LT for one of the better OLs the last 5 years and not out of football. No one talked about Mike Williams before the draft, while McKinnie had spots on Letterman.

um...that's not true. at all. not even a little bit.

[May Day 10]

From what I recall, Williams and McKinnie were neck and neck. Williams was the nice guy and McKinnie was arrogant and was a potential problem. The Bills went with the nice guy.

 

He seemed really immature, almost child-like. Couldnt cut it in the NFL. But he was really a nice guy. I hope he finds some success as long as it isnt in the AFC East.

[thebandit27]

Reading into Ross Tucker's comments about Williams, he knew that his salary was so high that it protected him from being cut. So he ignored coaches a fair amount of the time and was generally a prima donna. And nobody could do a thing about it.

 

Even if he's over that now, I don't have to like him. I hope he fails. He took our money and didn't give full effort, or even close. And that's something I can't forgive.

 

Here's Ross's comments: "I once played with a top five pick who didn't really like football, who did whatever he pleased around the facility, practiced more or less how and when he felt like it, and pretty much never played when he had any type of injury. Nobody respected how he handled his business, but they were also aware that he was in a different situation. Guys knew he could do whatever he wanted and they resented him for it. It hurt team chemistry. Everyone in the building knew there was a problem, but there was nothing that could really be done about it because of the amount of money guaranteed and the salary-cap implications."

 

There's no absolute guarantee that he was talking about Williams, but who else fits the bill?

 

link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writ...tees/index.html

 

So, yeah, I hope he fails.

 

I've read the article before. The problem is, last time I checked, the team drafts the player, not the other way around. The team drafted Williams and paid him $36M. It's not like he held out for such a huge deal, he was a rookie that was picked 4th overall, which commands a huge salary. So he didn't put in the work to be great, yes, that's his fault. That's not stealing, not even in a totally bastardized definition of the word (which was the word Ans used that provoked by initial response). Not living up to your contract, sure, but people in all walks of life and all professions do that every day (don't tell me you've never seen one in your line of work). Bottom line, it's the employer's job to do something about it, and when no consequences exist for irresponsible behavior, there's no reason to change. That's on the team, not the player. He was 21 years old and an instant millionaire, if you don't understand how that might change a person's attitude in a way that could negatively affect his/her performance in their job (which--whether we all want to realize it or not--pro football is still a job) then i'm probably wasting my time with this response. Also, you can't exactly cry that he "took our money". Did he show up at your door and force you to fork over some cash, or did you give whatever money you gave voluntarily for the privelege of watching/supporting the team? Again, not to be insulting to you personally, but see my comment about over-dramatization in my first post in this thread.

 

As to your hope for his failure, I think that's pretty unfair. He was a young kid that wasted an opportunity. Again, it happens every day. People absolutely deserve second chances, especially a guy that hasn't (to my knowledge) committed any kind of crime or done anything to adversely affect another person's quality of life.

 

I personally hope he goes on to have a properous career, and no, it won't bother me in the least that he flopped when he was here. I love hearing stories of success from people that had challenges (i.e. poor work ethic, bad attitude, sense of entitlement) and learned to overcome them. More people (especially in Western NY) need to be like that.

 

So go get 'em, Mike Williams, I'll be cheering for you.

[ans4e64]

Not living up to your contract, sure, but people in all walks of life and all professions do that every day (don't tell me you've never seen one in your line of work).

 

He was 21 years old and an instant millionaire, if you don't understand how that might change a person's attitude in a way that could negatively affect his/her performance in their job (which--whether we all want to realize it or not--pro football is still a job) then i'm probably wasting my time with this response.

 

He was a young kid that wasted an opportunity. Again, it happens every day.

 

Sounds like you are making it ok for Fat Ass Williams to do what he did. Sounds like you are rationalizing and acting like it is ok because there are other people in the world that do the same thing. Just because people do the same thing does not make it ok. And btw, Mike made a HELL of a lot more money failing at his job than the "everyday people" you're referring to.

 

We should send you to Roger Goodell's office so you can plead Marshawn's case of illegal gun possession because Plaxico had one too, and so do a lot of other people.

[Stussy109]

Best scenario for him is that he becomes a journeyman starter for the Redskins or somewhere else. He won't be an all-pro or anything because even with maturity players don't change that much. The Bills had no choice about cutting him; he wouldn't be making all this effort if the Bills and then Jacksonville had not cut him and he ended up out of the league for a while.

 

I'm just glad we didn't cut McCargo because with the better coaching he is getting there could be real potential for him this year.

 

 

Count me in as a McCargo fan

[thebandit27]

Sounds like you are making it ok for Fat Ass Williams to do what he did. Sounds like you are rationalizing and acting like it is ok because there are other people in the world that do the same thing. Just because people do the same thing does not make it ok. And btw, Mike made a HELL of a lot more money failing at his job than the "everyday people" you're referring to.

 

We should send you to Roger Goodell's office so you can plead Marshawn's case of illegal gun possession because Plaxico had one too, and so do a lot of other people.

 

You sound like a jealous fan now, Ans.

 

First off, not once did I say that it was ok for Williams to perform poorly or to be lazy. All I said was that the TEAM drafted him 4th overall and had to pay him as the #4 overall pick. Secondly, I elaborated in detail that what I was saying is that I understand why a 21-year-old kid that becomes a millionaire over-night would start to take himself and his job less seriously, and that he deserves another chance to prove that he changed his attitude and level of effort. Thirdly, I presented all of my arguments in the face of your comment that he stole someone's money--which is not true in any sensible interpretation of the word "steal"--and in response to Thurman's statement that he wants Williams to fail.

 

You seem to be shifting gears to arguing against the idea that I think it's ok for someone to slough off at their job. Obviously, I do not. In fact, I stated that very feeling multiple times (I won't lambaste you for cutting up my post, but the missing parts do a fair amount to support my platform for making the statements I made), but asserted that it's on the employer to make sure the employee takes his/her work seriously (both before and after the player is drafted, in the case of an NFL team). But whether it's his fault, the team's fault, my fault, or anyone else's fault, a kid that screws up his first chance and gets a second one is nothing to begrudge, and to do so reeks of sour grapes in my opinion. He's not a bad person, he's just a guy that made mistakes by not taking his craft seriously enough. An employer now sees fit to give him a second chance, if he's changed his ways and becomes successful, why would that upset you so much? Again, I'm not much for internet-psychoanalysis, but it sounds like jealousy.

 

Also, regarding Burress vs. Lynch: you can call me an apologist if you want, but I hardly think that any reasonable person would call carrying an unlicensed, loaded firearm into a Manhattan club an offense on par with carrying a gun in a locked-up lock-box in the trunk of a car. Lynch's mistake was that he was stupid enough to stop said car in a parking lot to smoke pot with his crew.

[ans4e64]

You sound like a jealous fan now, Ans.

 

First off, not once did I say that it was ok for Williams to perform poorly or to be lazy. All I said was that the TEAM drafted him 4th overall and had to pay him as the #4 overall pick. Secondly, I elaborated in detail that what I was saying is that I understand why a 21-year-old kid that becomes a millionaire over-night would start to take himself and his job less seriously, and that he deserves another chance to prove that he changed his attitude and level of effort. Thirdly, I presented all of my arguments in the face of your comment that he stole someone's money--which is not true in any sensible interpretation of the word "steal"--and in response to Thurman's statement that he wants Williams to fail.

 

You seem to be shifting gears to arguing against the idea that I think it's ok for someone to slough off at their job. Obviously, I do not. In fact, I stated that very feeling multiple times (I won't lambaste you for cutting up my post, but the missing parts do a fair amount to support my platform for making the statements I made), but asserted that it's on the employer to make sure the employee takes his/her work seriously (both before and after the player is drafted, in the case of an NFL team). But whether it's his fault, the team's fault, my fault, or anyone else's fault, a kid that screws up his first chance and gets a second one is nothing to begrudge, and to do so reeks of sour grapes in my opinion. He's not a bad person, he's just a guy that made mistakes by not taking his craft seriously enough. An employer now sees fit to give him a second chance, if he's changed his ways and becomes successful, why would that upset you so much? Again, I'm not much for internet-psychoanalysis, but it sounds like jealousy.

 

Also, regarding Burress vs. Lynch: you can call me an apologist if you want, but I hardly think that any reasonable person would call carrying an unlicensed, loaded firearm into a Manhattan club an offense on par with carrying a gun in a locked-up lock-box in the trunk of a car. Lynch's mistake was that he was stupid enough to stop said car in a parking lot to smoke pot with his crew.

 

I'm WHAT? Jealous?

 

I really wish I weighed 460 lbs and failed miserably at my job on a national scale, while pretty much begging for a second chance. Man, he's got the life!

[Gordio]

From what I remember Williams/Mckinnie were pretty close & people were split on who to take. With that being said, to me this pick though reeked of Donahoe showing how much smarter he was then everybody else. I do not care what the draft pick people had to say, mckinnie should of been the choice. The guy played against the best competition, was on an absolute juggernaut, never gave up a sack in his college career & man handled & I mean manhandled Dwight Freeney that year when the cuse went down to the Orange Bowl to play the Canes. With that being said, neither one lived up to their hype. The real travesty in that draft was how we came back from like 20pts down the prior year & beat Carolina. Lose that game, & we would of had a shot at peppers.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

From what I remember Williams/Mckinnie were pretty close & people were split on who to take. With that being said, to me this pick though reeked of Donahoe showing how much smarter he was then everybody else. I do not care what the draft pick people had to say, mckinnie should of been the choice. The guy played against the best competition, was on an absolute juggernaut, never gave up a sack in his college career & man handled & I mean manhandled Dwight Freeney that year when the cuse went down to the Orange Bowl to play the Canes. With that being said, neither one lived up to their hype. The real travesty in that draft was how we came back from like 20pts down the prior year & beat Carolina. Lose that game, & we would of had a shot at peppers.

 

My fuzzy memory recalls tha Mckinnie had problems out of the gate. We suffered with Williams' continued failures

[K-9]

I'm WHAT? Jealous?

 

I really wish I weighed 460 lbs and failed miserably at my job on a national scale, while pretty much begging for a second chance. Man, he's got the life!

 

Why do you begrudge someone a second chance? So he screwed the pooch in Buffalo. Our loss. And that sucks and all. But that's as far as it goes. What about Williams as the person not the OT? He's battled depression and it sounds like, based on his newly found dedication, that he's overcome that obstacle.

 

Is it really that much simpler to cheer for a man's failure than it is to applaud him for his effort to overcome life's obstacles?

 

More power to him. I hope he meets his potential and then some. I hope he wins 'Comeback Player of the Year.'

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ans4e64]

Why do you begrudge someone a second chance? So he screwed the pooch in Buffalo. Our loss. And that sucks and all. But that's as far as it goes. What about Williams as the person not the OT? He's battled depression and it sounds like, based on his newly found dedication, that he's overcome that obstacle.

 

Is it really that much simpler to cheer for a man's failure than it is to applaud him for his effort to overcome life's obstacles?

 

More power to him. I hope he meets his potential and then some. I hope he wins 'Comeback Player of the Year.'

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

He can play well for the Bills as long as he wants, but I'm certainly not going to root for him to succeed on another team.

[K-9]

He can play well for the Bills as long as he wants, but I'm certainly not going to root for him to succeed on another team.

 

Why not?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ans4e64]

Why not?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Haven't I already discussed why in the last 3 pages?

[Sisyphean Bills]

That was an assumption made by many, I don't think we could know that for sure. He still was not lining up against the other team's best DE. Blind side or not, I would put my best blocker where the most dangerous DE is lined up regardless of the QB's blindside.

You would not be alone. The Bengals didn't move Munoz to RT because Esiason was left-handed.

Their other QB's were right handed, what if they end up starting? Bottom line is that because of these issues, there was a risk to Williams that was not present with McKinnie and a number of other players on the board that year. And this isn't hind sight, I made this exact argument on this board prior to that draft and its not like I was the only one with those concerns. No one saw him becoming this big of a bust but plenty thought he was not our best option.

True. There were concerns about Fat Mike, specifically his maturity and commitment to the game. Turned out those concerns were extremely well placed and throwing a wheelbarrow of cash at the guy did nothing to motivate him -- quite the opposite.

[thebandit27]

I'm WHAT? Jealous?

 

I really wish I weighed 460 lbs and failed miserably at my job on a national scale, while pretty much begging for a second chance. Man, he's got the life!

 

 

He can play well for the Bills as long as he wants, but I'm certainly not going to root for him to succeed on another team.

 

 

Haven't I already discussed why in the last 3 pages?

 

So let's see, you claim you've discussed it in the last 3 pages, and here's the only thing I've found that even remotely addresses why you hate the idea of him getting a 2nd chance:

 

Probably because he already had the chance, a chance not many people are lucky to have, and instead of taking advantage he literally stole money from the Bills organization. I hope he never makes it back into the NFL and can truly understand what he chose to give up by not giving a damn.

 

Which basically states that he (1) stole money, which isn't even close to true (see my extensive explanation that you conveniently ignored) and (2) blew his chance in Buffalo. Wow, that's what it takes to invoke such venom from you, Ans? Then you go on to state that he blew a chance that not many people are lucky enough to have, then blast me for saying that I understand why he let the money go to his head, then proceed to rip him for getting paid a lot (which is part of playing pro football for a living, you presumably understand), all without once justifying why he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance, and you wonder why I assume you're jealous of him (you also seized the opportunity to call him a fat failure again too)? Here's an idea of why I think that: I can read.

 

In my book, one failure doesn't mean that a person is doomed to a lifetime of being labled a failure. It means that changes need to be made, and the effort needs to improve. If Williams does that, why does it bother you so much? Mind you, you STILL haven't answered that question, despite being asked by myself and other posters. All you've done is talk about how the man is a fat failure and you want him to fail. All I'm asking for is a decent reason. Do you have one, or are you just jealous that this "fat failure" gets another chance to make a lot of money?

[ans4e64]

So let's see, you claim you've discussed it in the last 3 pages, and here's the only thing I've found that even remotely addresses why you hate the idea of him getting a 2nd chance:

 

Probably because he already had the chance, a chance not many people are lucky to have, and instead of taking advantage he literally stole money from the Bills organization. I hope he never makes it back into the NFL and can truly understand what he chose to give up by not giving a damn.

 

Which basically states that he (1) stole money, which isn't even close to true (see my extensive explanation that you conveniently ignored) and (2) blew his chance in Buffalo. Wow, that's what it takes to invoke such venom from you, Ans? Then you go on to state that he blew a chance that not many people are lucky enough to have, then blast me for saying that I understand why he let the money go to his head, then proceed to rip him for getting paid a lot (which is part of playing pro football for a living, you presumably understand), all without once justifying why he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance, and you wonder why I assume you're jealous of him (you also seized the opportunity to call him a fat failure again too)? Here's an idea of why I think that: I can read.

 

In my book, one failure doesn't mean that a person is doomed to a lifetime of being labled a failure. It means that changes need to be made, and the effort needs to improve. If Williams does that, why does it bother you so much? Mind you, you STILL haven't answered that question, despite being asked by myself and other posters. All you've done is talk about how the man is a fat failure and you want him to fail. All I'm asking for is a decent reason. Do you have one, or are you just jealous that this "fat failure" gets another chance to make a lot of money?

 

Why the hell would I want to see anyone who didn't give a damn about the Bills organization or its fans (which includes me) go on to another team after collecting our team's money, and all of a sudden care and play great about that organization and its fans? He is a scumbag. He gave no effort.

 

I don't have a problem having anyone from our team go on to have success with someone else, because they all seem to at least try their best here. Mike never did. I wish Jabari Greer and everyone else who left the best of luck. Mike is different. He set our franchise back because he didn't feel like putting down the cheesburgers. He didn't feel like working out. He didn't feel like trying. And he didn't feel like playing for his teammates (who worked so hard) or his fans (who paid so much money). If he wanted to truly turn everything around, he'd come to the Bills and try to give them something back (barring we even wanted that lazy S.O.B) for being loyal to him, and getting our GM fired. Fired. Do you get that? He's one of the key reasons another man lost his job and income and has been out of the league ever since. Mike isn't the whole reason, but he's a damn big part. Pun intended.

 

In my mind, Mike is not on the same level as any other player that's ever been lucky enough to put on a Bills uniform. I'd hate to see him go to another team and want to give them everything we expected him to give us. He is a loser, and he'll always be a loser, and he won't get the least bit of praise from me.

[mrags]

So let's see, you claim you've discussed it in the last 3 pages, and here's the only thing I've found that even remotely addresses why you hate the idea of him getting a 2nd chance:

 

Probably because he already had the chance, a chance not many people are lucky to have, and instead of taking advantage he literally stole money from the Bills organization. I hope he never makes it back into the NFL and can truly understand what he chose to give up by not giving a damn.

 

Which basically states that he (1) stole money, which isn't even close to true (see my extensive explanation that you conveniently ignored) and (2) blew his chance in Buffalo. Wow, that's what it takes to invoke such venom from you, Ans? Then you go on to state that he blew a chance that not many people are lucky enough to have, then blast me for saying that I understand why he let the money go to his head, then proceed to rip him for getting paid a lot (which is part of playing pro football for a living, you presumably understand), all without once justifying why he doesn't deserve a 2nd chance, and you wonder why I assume you're jealous of him (you also seized the opportunity to call him a fat failure again too)? Here's an idea of why I think that: I can read.

 

In my book, one failure doesn't mean that a person is doomed to a lifetime of being labled a failure. It means that changes need to be made, and the effort needs to improve. If Williams does that, why does it bother you so much? Mind you, you STILL haven't answered that question, despite being asked by myself and other posters. All you've done is talk about how the man is a fat failure and you want him to fail. All I'm asking for is a decent reason. Do you have one, or are you just jealous that this "fat failure" gets another chance to make a lot of money?

 

You guys are cracking me up over here. And you got rid of my hiccups.

[thebandit27]

Why the hell would I want to see anyone who didn't give a damn about the Bills organization or its fans (which includes me) go on to another team after collecting our team's money, and all of a sudden care and play great about that organization and its fans? He is a scumbag. He gave no effort.

 

I don't have a problem having anyone from our team go on to have success with someone else, because they all seem to at least try their best here. Mike never did. I wish Jabari Greer and everyone else who left the best of luck. Mike is different. He set our franchise back because he didn't feel like putting down the cheesburgers. He didn't feel like working out. He didn't feel like trying. And he didn't feel like playing for his teammates (who worked so hard) or his fans (who paid so much money). If he wanted to truly turn everything around, he'd come to the Bills and try to give them something back (barring we even wanted that lazy S.O.B) for being loyal to him, and getting our GM fired. Fired. Do you get that? He's one of the key reasons another man lost his job and income and has been out of the league ever since. Mike isn't the whole reason, but he's a damn big part. Pun intended.

 

In my mind, Mike is not on the same level as any other player that's ever been lucky enough to put on a Bills uniform. I'd hate to see him go to another team and want to give them everything we expected him to give us. He is a loser, and he'll always be a loser, and he won't get the least bit of praise from me.

 

True colors shining through...that's right, Ans. people don't ever change, and even when they do, it's their failures that should be remembered, right? I'm sorry you feel that way, it's sad really.

 

And just so you know, there's no way that Mike Williams got Donahoe fired. Donahoe got Donahoe fired, and he didn't need any help. He was fired b/c he couldn't pick a good coach and refused to change things when they went wrong. If it was all about the players that TD brought in, he NEVER would have been fired. He drafted Nate Clements, Aaron Schobel, Travis Henry, Josh Reed, Terrence McGee, and Lee Evans; he signed Takeo Spikes, Sam Adams, London Fletcher; it's not like he didn't draft good players.

 

The fact that you feel slighted by Williams' actions in the past does not mean that he's a scum bag. He didn't take his job seriously enough, that's it. You have no reason to take it personally, yet for some reason you do. Your little ditty about how he should come back to the Bills and pay them back for their "loyalty" is ridiculous on a lot of counts. First, there's no indication that any team other than Washington wanted him, even though he had to (as you put it) "beg" his way back into the league, so how he's supposed force his way on to a team's roster without their consent for the sole purpose of paying them back is a little beyond me. Second, what "loyalty" did Buffalo show to him that's got you in such a dither? As I said before, the TEAM picked Williams, he didn't draft himself onto the team. If he did, I might understand this "loyalty" of which you speak. Hanging onto a player in an attempt to get a return on an ill-advised investment is not loyalty, it's business, nothing more. And moreover, it's Buffalo's fault for getting the pick wrong. The head of any organization is ultimately held responsible for its success (or lack thereof), blaming one employee for it is beyond absurd.

 

But hey, it doesn't really matter what either of us think. He's going to get his chance, and if he's made the changes in his life that he needed to, he'll be successful. Just don't expect a check in the mail.

[thebandit27]

You guys are cracking me up over here. And you got rid of my hiccups.

 

I fail to see what's so funny about the discussion (by all means, toss an opinion in any time you'd like), but glad I could help.