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Time to get your viewpoints straight, pally. First of all, no one can dispute 2 things: TO is a great player and has never had any legal troubles. He may not be nice, but boo freakin' hoo! This isn't tiddly-winks they're playing. Judging by the way you've gone after Bills players who suck but are clean and nice (JP) or players who are good but have legal issues (Lynch), you should be loving a guy like TO. And you don't strike me as a touchy-feely guy when it comes to caring about whether a person is nicey nice or not. But since you're such a Bills fan, you latch-onto him calling out teammates who aren't pulling their weight and/or suck. It's a joke. Even moreso since I saw what you said about the Eagles never coming close to making the SB again because of McNabb, while Garcia and Romo have done nothing to earn your love, if not Romo deserving ridicule for that Cabo thing.

 

We all saw how Flutie acted when he came back to the NFL and worked his way back to being a starter (about 5 years too late, which was the point). He divided the Bills' lockerroom and went on TV and said that he would have won the Titans playoff game, when his poor play at the end of the 1999 season is what got him benched and when it was the ST's that was directly responsible for losing that playoff game. That's about as "infamous" as you are trying to make TO out to be, and Flutie isn't even in the same zip code as TO as a player (forget the CFL). And there was other stuff, as Jim McMahon has alluded to, which involved him trying to divide the Bears' lockerroom. But since he didn't commit double homicide, and since Flutie was a sideshow for a couple years and then faded back into relative obscurity, no one cares.

 

But if you think that Flutie was a "nice guy," you're as simple as I think you are.

 

Look, I cannot make this any simpler for you. I have never stated that TO was not a great receiver, nor have I suggested that he was a criminal. I have been harsh with ML becuase his moronic behavior has cost his team and his fans (it absolutely doesn't bother you that he has done this--another way we are different). I think McNabb is a choker, but he made it throught the playoffs in 04 without TO. Jp sucked and when he played poorly, he was quick to share the blame. When he was benched for the 3rd time in his brief career, he moped and isolated himself. Yeah, great guy.

 

No, I don't hate TO. I'm just pointing out how many on this board have bent over backwards to ignore or trivialize what this guy has done with each team with who he has played. (I am "making him out to be"??--this is TOs biography, bro!) If TO was a Pat or a Jet--you would be falling over yourself to mock their aquisition of him.

 

To demonstrate how you need to rwist reality to feel better about your newfound love for TO, you have to say he is the same as Flutie was, despite all that is documented about TO and the lack of same for DF. You still cannot back up any of this, except to say that, by pointing out to his teammates that he was better QB than the guy who replaced him, he was "dividing the lockerroom." Well, guess what--he was right--and all of his teammates soon realized this as they were stuck with RJ until he was mercifully released.

 

Another example of your holiday from reality is that you believe, or at least pretend to, that TO is only "calling out" poorly performing teammates. Ah, no--he is "calling out" his QB's because they are not, based on his assessment, throwing him enough passes. It has nothing to do with "winning" or "teamwork". It is about maximizing the glory of TO. How can you not understand this? How is this being a "leader" or a great teammate?

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Regardless of our opinions, let's try to be accurate about what was written.

 

The article clearly states that Jim McMahon (another sterling person) dubbed Flutie "America's Midget" and that it was McMahon who "undermined" Flutie.

McMahon had been the starting QB for the Bears since his rookie season of 1982. Anyone claiming he "undermined" Flutie seems specious at best, without being qualified as "after Flutie attempted to undermine him." Obviously there was animosity, for McMahon to refer to Flutie as "America's Midget," and McMahon did go onto win a SB.

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McMahon had been the starting QB for the Bears since his rookie season of 1982. Anyone claiming he "undermined" Flutie seems specious at best, without being qualified as "after Flutie attempted to undermine him." Obviously there was animosity, for McMahon to refer to Flutie as "America's Midget," and McMahon did go onto win a SB.

 

 

Where are you drawing this from? I do remember the articles about Flutie undermining RJ. It was very annoying as I went from laughing about the Bills signing him, to actively rooting for him, to disappointment. Where did you get that from?

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Look, I cannot make this any simpler for you. I have never stated that TO was not a great receiver, nor have I suggested that he was a criminal. I have been harsh with ML becuase his moronic behavior has cost his team and his fans (it absolutely doesn't bother you that he has done this--another way we are different). I think McNabb is a choker, but he made it throught the playoffs in 04 without TO. Jp sucked and when he played poorly, he was quick to share the blame. When he was benched for the 3rd time in his brief career, he moped and isolated himself. Yeah, great guy.

 

No, I don't hate TO. I'm just pointing out how many on this board have bent over backwards to ignore or trivialize what this guy has done with each team with who he has played. (I am "making him out to be"??--this is TOs biography, bro!) If TO was a Pat or a Jet--you would be falling over yourself to mock their aquisition of him.

 

To demonstrate how you need to rwist reality to feel better about your newfound love for TO, you have to say he is the same as Flutie was, despite all that is documented about TO and the lack of same for DF. You still cannot back up any of this, except to say that, by pointing out to his teammates that he was better QB than the guy who replaced him, he was "dividing the lockerroom." Well, guess what--he was right--and all of his teammates soon realized this as they were stuck with RJ until he was mercifully released.

 

Another example of your holiday from reality is that you believe, or at least pretend to, that TO is only "calling out" poorly performing teammates. Ah, no--he is "calling out" his QB's because they are not, based on his assessment, throwing him enough passes. It has nothing to do with "winning" or "teamwork". It is about maximizing the glory of TO. How can you not understand this? How is this being a "leader" or a great teammate?

Look, I already debunked the "not...throwing him enough passes" caca by telling you that he led his team in receiving during his last 4 years in SF and 2 years in Philly (even being in the top-3 in every receiving category in 2005, before getting suspended), and that he wasn't the leading receiver in Dallas for the last 2 years, yet he didn't "destroy the team" until the final month of the season, when the Cowboys' playoffs hopes were fading faster than Jessica Simpson's career, as Romo continued to toss the rock to his best bud Witten. Then you changed your argument to "specifically TD passes," and I proceeded to inform you that over that same time span, he's led his team in receiving TD's every year. Now you've come full circle, again claiming "not...throwing him enough passes," with the dumb "TO blew up the Eagles because they didn't celebrate his 100th TD" thrown in for good measure. Loos like you no lissen so good.

 

I already told you that TO saw that Garcia was a fraud and the 49'ers were going nowhere (both of which have been proven in spades) and more importantly that he left THEM, while his dispute with the Eagles primarily came down to his contract (and Rosenhaus got him blockbuster deals with the Cowboys) and revealing that McNabb choked in the SB. The team doing everything they could to dis him at every turn just added fuel to the already-bightly-burning fire. And as for his last season in Dallas and that infamous meeting to complain about Romo throwing the ball too much to Witten, 2 other receivers (Roy Williams and Patrick Crayton) joined him in complaining about it. But most never heard about that. And now we hear the Joneses say that Romo wasn't a leader and that they had to release TO for Romo to become one, and for Roy Williams to justify the 1st, 3rd, and 6th round picks. Like it's that simple. And TO, when asked about the Jones' comments, was able to ascertain that the Joneses were talking about Romo not being a leader while he was around, so apparently the only one who didn't understand that is you.

 

But I'll ask the question I've asked you before: what could TO possibly do to the Bills to "destroy" them? Outside of the Bills moving to Toronto as a direct result of TO, there is NOTHING that TO can do to make things any worse than they've been for the past 9 seasons. Jauron, Schonert, and yes Trent, are on their last gasps as higher-position coaches or starting QB's. Because you see, it won't be because of TO that the Bills stumble, although he'll be the convenient scapegoat should he show his frustration at losing, which would kill his chances at a new contract, much less the blockbusters he got from the Cowboys.

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Where are you drawing this from? I do remember the articles about Flutie undermining RJ. It was very annoying as I went from laughing about the Bills signing him, to actively rooting for him, to disappointment. Where did you get that from?

Yep, we all know that Flutie undermined RJ. That's because RJ sucked. And SJBF said that McMahon allegedly undermined Flutie, because...

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I think I recall that article...a lot of people thought Bucky was full of it but from everything I heard, it was pretty much on target. I remember one guy who sat in front of me one game back in the day relating to me how he had met Flutie and RJ once in 98 and Flutie was a total prick to him while RJ was very congenial

 

I remember that article very well. It basically said that Flutie was the divisve force in the lockerroom & did not want to toe the company line when TD & Williams took over basically making the decision rather easy for them to go with RJ. It was also a pretty gutless act by Gleason waiting for Flutie to go to SD before writing the article. That article should of been written when the flute was still on the team but Gleason obviously did not have the stones to wriite it then. I lost alot of respect for BG as writer fter that & really he has only reinforced those feelings with his anti Bills/NFL/Football feelings & his constant optimistic pollianna view of the Sabres over the last 8yrs. The guy is a joke & should of been fired from the snews along time ago.

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I think I recall that article...a lot of people thought Bucky was full of it but from everything I heard, it was pretty much on target. I remember one guy who sat in front of me one game back in the day relating to me how he had met Flutie and RJ once in 98 and Flutie was a total prick to him while RJ was very congenial

 

And I have that article. In full, saved on my HDD.

Just read it again. Gleason raked Flutie over the coals.

 

Here's the search result from the News archives:

 

IT'S TIME FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT FLUTIE

Article 1 of 1 found.

Published on October 25, 2001

 

1131{WORDCNT:-0} words

BUCKY GLEASON

 

So, you're a Doug Flutie fan? It's OK. You're hardly alone in this town. In fact, it has come to my attention that some of you will be rooting for the San Diego Chargers this weekend solely because the cuddly little fellow now wears a different shade of blue. Hey, it's your choice.

 

But before you change your allegiance for a week, you might want to know a few things about the Flutester. For one, he's a phony. He had half of Western ...

 

And here's the link (costs money to read it):

 

Linky

 

Just reading that brought back a slew of memories. Such as the big number of "long time die hard" Bills fans that came out of the wood work when Flutie was signed, and the same number of "long time die hard" Bills fans that disappeared when Flutie was cut.

 

I also remember lurking on the Charger boards after Fultie was signed, and reading the Charger fans bitching about the "long time die hard" johnny come lately Charger fans that were now appearing. On one board, one of these "long time die hard" Charger "fans" had no idea who Dan Fouts was, but he was sure Flutie would be so much better than him.

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Look, I already debunked the "not...throwing him enough passes" caca by telling you that he led his team in receiving during his last 4 years in SF and 2 years in Philly (even being in the top-3 in every receiving category in 2005, before getting suspended), and that he wasn't the leading receiver in Dallas for the last 2 years, yet he didn't "destroy the team" until the final month of the season, when the Cowboys' playoffs hopes were fading faster than Jessica Simpson's career, as Romo continued to toss the rock to his best bud Witten. Then you changed your argument to "specifically TD passes," and I proceeded to inform you that over that same time span, he's led his team in receiving TD's every year. Now you've come full circle, again claiming "not...throwing him enough passes," with the dumb "TO blew up the Eagles because they didn't celebrate his 100th TD" thrown in for good measure. Loos like you no lissen so good.

 

I already told you that TO saw that Garcia was a fraud and the 49'ers were going nowhere (both of which have been proven in spades) and more importantly that he left THEM, while his dispute with the Eagles primarily came down to his contract (and Rosenhaus got him blockbuster deals with the Cowboys) and revealing that McNabb choked in the SB. The team doing everything they could to dis him at every turn just added fuel to the already-bightly-burning fire. And as for his last season in Dallas and that infamous meeting to complain about Romo throwing the ball too much to Witten, 2 other receivers (Roy Williams and Patrick Crayton) joined him in complaining about it. But most never heard about that. And now we hear the Joneses say that Romo wasn't a leader and that they had to release TO for Romo to become one, and for Roy Williams to justify the 1st, 3rd, and 6th round picks. Like it's that simple. And TO, when asked about the Jones' comments, was able to ascertain that the Joneses were talking about Romo not being a leader while he was around, so apparently the only one who didn't understand that is you.

 

But I'll ask the question I've asked you before: what could TO possibly do to the Bills to "destroy" them? Outside of the Bills moving to Toronto as a direct result of TO, there is NOTHING that TO can do to make things any worse than they've been for the past 9 seasons. Jauron, Schonert, and yes Trent, are on their last gasps as higher-position coaches or starting QB's. Because you see, it won't be because of TO that the Bills stumble, although he'll be the convenient scapegoat should he show his frustration at losing, which would kill his chances at a new contract, much less the blockbusters he got from the Cowboys.

 

TO's shenanigans only started in the last season? Right. Check his reaction in his first season, when he was shut down by the last team that dumped him (3 catches) in his humiliating (post overdose) "homecoming game", when he railed at the staff: "why did you all bring me here?"

 

No, the Eagles made it through the playoffs just fine without TO. True Mc Nabb gagged in the SB, but throwing a lot of passes to TO hasn't lead to many playoff wins (or games) for any team---other than the 49ers. In fact, check out the long list of postseason games that TO has appeared in since he left the 49ers. What? You're done already? See?, that didn't take long.

 

GArcia was a "fraud"? Gee, what else will you say to bolster your chronically weak arguments?

 

How about a 5 year stretch of 16,640 yards, 120 TDs vs. 80 ints? Oh, wait---those were HOFer Jim Kelly's numbers from '88-'92, his best 5 year stretch, statistically. Garcia's numbers were 16,408 yards, 113 TD's and only 56 ints for SF. In fact, Garcia tossed TO almost as many TDs as McNabb and Romo combined.

 

Yeah, I can see why you would agree that Garcia was a bum and did nothing for TO. I mean he's probably gay and all, right?

 

What can TO do to the Bills? That's pretty easy to say (unless you believe that all the well documented behavior by TO as a "teammate" was completely fabricated by the "media"): when a few losses start piling up, he can start in on the second year starting QB and the overmatched, dimwitted OC about how TO should be a bigger part of the offense. He will start assembling his lockerroom allies (maybe James Hardy and Johnson?) and get them all to rally around the "all this team needs is a little more TO" theme.

 

I don't think that would be a good thing. You disagree.

 

Now go back to work documenting your "Flutie was as big a self promoter as TO" claim. You are way behind.

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Since it is unavailable anywhere on the net I've copied and pasted it;

 

______________

By BUCKY GLEASON

10/25/01

 

 

So, you're a Doug Flutie fan? It's OK. You're hardly alone in this town.

In fact, it has come to my attention that some of you will be rooting for

the San Diego Chargers this weekend solely because the cuddly little

fellow now wears a different shade of blue. Hey, it's your choice.

 

 

But before you change your allegiance for a week, you might want to know a

few things about the Flutester. For one, he's a phony. He had half of

Western New York, most of Canada and parts of New England snowed into

thinking he was such a great guy when the Bills for years were quietly

laughing while watching his little act.

 

 

Such transparent personalities aren't usually embraced in this town, but

this was a charade for the ages. Flutie had two performances working - the

one he played for the public and the off-Broadway persona reserved for

behind closed doors. We're talking two totally different dudes. You like

the one you see. You wouldn't like the one they know.

 

 

See, Flutie was a selfish, egotistical, conniving, manipulative, shrewd

individualist who did almost anything to make sure he came out looking

better than his former teammate, Rob Johnson, in their battle to run the

offense.

 

 

Did I forget insecure? Yep, Flutie worried that he would never get his

opportunity to quiet lifelong skeptics, so he worked behind the scenes

against Johnson. The word "backstabber" has been tossed around frequently

in Bills' circles to describe Flutie since he left town. Predictably, he

was a model for diplomacy when speaking to the media Wednesday.

 

 

When Johnson was injured he did everything asked to help Flutie get ready

for the next opponent, but it didn't take long for him to realize the

favor wouldn't be returned. How sophomoric did Flutie become? Well, even

when Johnson played well and the Bills won, Flutie told his teammates he

would have done a much better job, that he should have been the

quarterback, that he would have avoided more sacks, that the Bills would

have won by more had he been given the reins. And once his tiresome tirade

was over, he would ask his listeners, "Don't you think?"

 

 

What you don't know is that Johnson approached Flutie several times last

year, long before the story in Sports Illustrated and the interview with

Jim Rome outlined their genuine disdain for each other, and asked him why

he was mouthing off behind his back. Johnson was attempting to handle

things privately, like a professional. Flutie, of course, denied

everything, like an amateur. It didn't matter. Johnson knew the score

because his teammates kept telling him.

 

 

Johnson's dilemma wasn't about quarterbacking but battery. He debated

whether to simply punch out Flutie or keep quiet. Oh, he wanted Flutie in

a small room with the lights off for a woodshed special, but he

reconsidered because he thought it would have been disruptive - to the

Bills. Really, I'm not making this up.

 

 

Together, they stewed in silence. And I mean silence.

 

 

Last year, when the Bills held their quarterback meetings in preparation

for the next opponent, there usually were two people talking and neither

was named Doug or Rob. Instead, bench warmer Alex Van Pelt reviewed the

game plan with offensive coordinator Joe Pendry. Johnson threw in his two

cents every so often. Flutie threw in three cents just to be sure. But

they said nothing to each other.

 

 

What you don't know is that Flutie loved signing autographs in public but

privately complained about the exercise. He was a go-to guy in training

camp because he understood the importance of a good first impression. Give

him credit, he's an engaging man the first few times you meet him.

Grandmas and kids love the guy. People adore the underdog, and he plays

the role better than anyone in recent memory. And to him, all those people

lining up weren't Bills fans as much as they were Flutie fans. Behind the

scenes, say, on a Tuesday with nobody around, Flutie whined about such

inconveniences. After awhile, the Bills dreaded asking him to sign. He'll

deny it to the day he's dead, but it's the truth.

 

 

What you don't know is that Johnson volunteered his services to the Bills'

marketing staff. In fact, he has ordered the community relations people to

keep quiet about his charities, such as the time he spends in Children's

Hospital and his work with Habitat for Humanity, among others. He wanted

his off-field work reserved for his private life, away from the cameras

and commercials. He wanted to be known in these parts as a quarterback,

not a humanitarian.

 

 

Flutie was known as a winner, Johnson a fragile outcast. So why has Flutie

played for eight professional teams since he threw the Hail Mary? Because

Flutie's charm runs only so long before people discover the facade. Teams

aren't far behind.

 

 

Anyway, when it's all added up, the Bills' defense did more for the team's

success than anything Flutie accomplished. He has a better team wrapped

around him now, too. We'll see what happens when the Chargers play

Oakland, Denver and Seattle the second time around.

 

 

You might want to start supporting Johnson because he's not going anywhere

for a while. Since the first preseason game, he has played a grand total

of three plays behind the starting offensive line. Granted, he's no Steve

Young, but he's improving. Fans are giving him less time for success than

he's had in the pocket.

 

 

And that brings us to Bills President and General Manager Tom Donahoe, who

really didn't have a difficult decision about whether he would retain

Flutie or Johnson. Flutie had three offseason meetings with Donahoe and

the coaching staff before the Bills made their choice. Flutie, after

complaining about the process to others, made sure to say their West Coast

offense had better fit his style because he wasn't changing. Flutie told

them straight out, "I'm going to play my way." They were floored.

 

 

Johnson, on the other hand, asked how he could help the team. West Coast?

East Coast? They could have said Gulf Coast, and he would have agreed if

it meant helping the Bills win. Johnson, supposedly a California beach

bum, even asked his bosses whether they wanted him to stay in Western New

York through the winter so he could work on the new attack. They were

floored.

 

 

And when the interviews were completed, the Bills needed about 11 seconds

to realize it wasn't a Flutie-Johnson issue at all. It was Johnson or

someone else.

 

 

See, what Flutie never understood was that public perception didn't always

equate to absolute truth. He apparently didn't realize the Bills would be

talking to everyone from the backup center to the maintenance man at The

Ralph. He didn't realize how many people he insulted when he was here.

It's hardly surprising.

 

 

Doug Flutie was always about one thing. Doug Flutie.

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TO's shenanigans only started in the last season? Right. Check his reaction in his first season, when he was shut down by the last team that dumped him (3 catches) in his humiliating (post overdose) "homecoming game", when he railed at the staff: "why did you all bring me here?"

LOL! That game was "humiliating" for TO...why? Because the Cowboys lost, thanks to Bledsoe shitting the bed and being just a few games away from getting benched, permanently? Hey, whatever made-up argument you can come up with, sport!

 

Then again, maybe that "cancerous" comment caused Romo to fumble the FG snap in the Seahawks playoff game that season, losing the game for them. Friggin' TO!

No, the Eagles made it through the playoffs just fine without TO. True Mc Nabb gagged in the SB, but throwing a lot of passes to TO hasn't lead to many playoff wins (or games) for any team---other than the 49ers. In fact, check out the long list of postseason games that TO has appeared in since he left the 49ers. What? You're done already? See?, that didn't take long.

It took as long as it did to count the number of postseason games that Garcia has appeared in since he left the 49'ers. And one of those seasons was in relief of McNabb with the Eagles, who were making the playoffs annually.

GArcia was a "fraud"? Gee, what else will you say to bolster your chronically weak arguments?

 

How about a 5 year stretch of 16,640 yards, 120 TDs vs. 80 ints? Oh, wait---those were HOFer Jim Kelly's numbers from '88-'92, his best 5 year stretch, statistically. Garcia's numbers were 16,408 yards, 113 TD's and only 56 ints for SF. In fact, Garcia tossed TO almost as many TDs as McNabb and Romo combined.

 

Yeah, I can see why you would agree that Garcia was a bum and did nothing for TO. I mean he's probably gay and all, right?

He's as gay as TO was suicidal. Speaking of which, only in your warped little mind is it a crime to call someone gay, but it's okay to make fun of a (alleged) suicide attempt. Amazing. But hey, that's what we've come to expect from you in your short and entertaining time with us.

 

But yeah, you're right. Garcia putting up good numbers by throwing to HOF WR's was all about him. While TO's been chugging along since parting ways with Garcia. Oh and Garcia is on his FIFTH team post-49'ers, which is two better (or worse) than TO, for those keeping score at home. Is it because he's a cancer, he sucks, or he's "been relegated to the back of the bus?"

 

And don't make me laugh comparing Garcia to Kelly, Mr. "Bills fan." But let me ask: give me the list of people you think might be presenting Garcia at his HOF induction? What, you're done already?

What can TO do to the Bills? That's pretty easy to say (unless you believe that all the well documented behavior by TO as a "teammate" was completely fabricated by the "media"): when a few losses start piling up, he can start in on the second year starting QB and the overmatched, dimwitted OC about how TO should be a bigger part of the offense. He will start assembling his lockerroom allies (maybe James Hardy and Johnson?) and get them all to rally around the "all this team needs is a little more TO" theme.

 

I don't think that would be a good thing. You disagree.

The "second year starting QB?" LOL! If Trent, who will be a 3rd year player and who has started 23 games in his 2 years in the league, can't put up a decent showing with TO, Evans, Reed, Lynch, Jackson, Fine, and Nelson, he's toast no matter what, get it?

 

As for the "overmatched, dimwitted OC," if the Bills' offense sucks, his "overmatched, dimwitted" ass will be dumped. Same with Jauron's. And you think that that is a bad thing? Get your stories straight, pally, if not strengthen your impotent arguments. Once again, slowly, THERE IS NOTHING THAT T.O. CAN TO DO THE BILLS.

Now go back to work documenting your "Flutie was as big a self promoter as TO" claim. You are way behind.

True, I have a long way to go to match your "Flutie and Jeff Garcia are gods" campaign.

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I didn't read it before I posted it and now that I've read it it fits in with what everyone was saying at the time. He is a little :o and probably has one too which would explain a lot about him.

I remember reading that article back then. Pretty much confirmed what was being whispered about him at the time. And the media knows all!

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VOR, the article I just posted should help you with proving to Mr. WEO your contention that Flutie was a big self promoter. I guess he'll have to do better.

Doubtful at best. Mr. WEO lives in his own world where assumptions, allegations, and suppositions reign, not facts.

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Ummm...we're talking about an article by a grown man who calls himself "Bucky" and - in his own Walter-Mitty-like mind - fantasizes that he would be a better GM than Darcy Regier.

 

In other words, you can pretty much dismiss anything the idiot says.

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Ummm...we're talking about an article by a grown man who calls himself "Bucky" and - in his own Walter-Mitty-like mind - fantasizes that he would be a better GM than Darcy Regier.

 

In other words, you can pretty much dismiss anything the idiot says.

 

 

You want to kiss his little Flutie, don't you? You LOVE him.

 

I know it's tough when the truth about one of your early crushes comes to light. You can't believe he was such a bad guy.

 

"I could have changed him!", you cry, as others relate their stories of abuse.

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