Fewell733 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 seriously, this thread appears on TBD virtually every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 People have to understand if the Bills move to toronto or L.A this is not the same as starting an expansion franchise... For example this is not the Houston Texans years ago in there first year.. That being said I think a good front office and good players would be more attractive in this sense.. like the browns moving to baltimore and winning a championship.. someone will try to want to copy that same model that the ravens did.. Except when the Browns moved they were TERRIBLE. They only got good AFTER moving to Baltimore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax bill backer Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Except when the Browns moved they were TERRIBLE. They only got good AFTER moving to Baltimore. my point exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonInBuffalo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I have a somewhat different theory. I believe that Ralph is positioning the Bills so when he dies they're financially viable enough to be sold in a relatively short amount of time. Whoever buys the Bills will have to take on a substantial amount of debt. Financing that debt will probably cost in the rough neighborhood of $50 million per year. So unless the Bills have been making close to that during the recent times before his death, they could be a tough sell. If his family can't sell the team relatively quickly when he dies, one or more family members might have to declare bankruptcy just to pay the taxes. If they can sell the team relatively quickly, the taxes won't matter. Seriously, does it really matter if his family inherits "only" $200 million instead of $400 million? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 FORGET MOVING THE TEAM! For the last time, idiots who think the team can be easily moved = idiots who think we can easily trade down in the draft. You have to have a place to move the team, just like you have to have a trading partner, or there is no moving of anything. It's too expensive = you need about $4 Billion to do the whole thing, $2 Billion if you plan to have your kids pay off the loan you take out, possibly grandkids. Nobody in their right mind is going to take on $2-4 Billion in debt just to move the team to...where?...exactly. And "Notown" is going to help repay that debt better exactly how? Done. It's a patently stupid idea, when they can leave the Bills where they are and only have to come up with part/all of the sale price $700 MM - $1B. We have been over and over this. The best possible market left on this continent is Toronto, and we are already grabbing that with the one game a year thing. The next best market is Mexico City and with the violence/corruption=gambling there, there's no way the NFL will touch that town with a 10 ft. pole. LA IS NOT AN NFL MARKET. Deal with this fact and abandon all hope of it changing until Hollywood/PC/liberalistas stop living there. VEGAS will NEVER BE an NFL city, period = gambling. Portland = LA. What's left? Nothing. There is no other area in this country that can support an NFL franchise better than we can, and we aren't really even a problem team: Jacksonville(of all places), St. Louis, Cincy, etc., have much bigger problems than us. Before you start talking about moving the team, realize that they are going to move far before we are. And, wherever they move just crosses more places off the list where this team could be moved, not that there were some anyway. So what's left? The Columbus Bills? How about the Oklahoma City Bills? You are fooling yourselves. The Calgary Bills? This is a ridiculous line of so-called reasoning and it needs to stop, permanently. The Bills aren't going anywhere because: 1. There's nowhere for them to go 2. Even if there were, other teams who are seriously struggling, unlike the Bills, will move there first, leaving again, nowhere to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Ive been trying to say this the whole time..... Give up guys. quit worrying about free agency and the draft. the bills will be moved in the comming years... you all just have to accept it and for you people who dont believe it are stupid I don't know you, and for all I know you are smart about other things, but on this topic, you're an idiot. Do us all a favor and explain: 1. Where the Bills will be moved to(NO LA, NO Vegas, NO Mexico, NO Toronto)? 2. Where in any business plan does it makes sense to put yourself $2-4 Billion in debt before you take in one cent........ (My math: $700-$1Billion to pay for the team, $1 Billion in "burn-rate" money to cover the inevitable 4-5 years of losses you WILL take, $1 Billion team re-location fee paid to NFL due immediately when you say you are moving it, $1 Billion for an NFL-regulation stadium(possibly less if you can get some gov't money) in "NoTown". Yeah, I am sure that "Notown" wants to shell out $1B to build a stadium for you. ..........in a market that is untested for NFL? You can conduct all the research you want, but who's to say that it isn't another LA all over again? I will remind you that the NFL has been around for longer than most of us have been alive, and acting like Ralph and other owners, "way back when" didn't do their homework on which towns were good NFL towns and which weren't is arrogant to say the least. Believe it or not, marketing research was not invented in 1990. 3. Given #2, who in the world has $4 Billion they can just throw around on a massively risky investment, when there are already 32 other established franchises that they will have to carve out market share from and compete with? Hint: maybe 10 people? Let me know when you get the crown prince of Saudi Arabia on the phone, will ya? Other than people, corporations are the only other entities that can take that kind of risk on that kind of money, and the NFL won't allow corps to buy teams. You can't, so don't bother. I can go on, but I think it's best if you re-think who is being stupid here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 You know threads like these are a bore. So-called Bills fans have accused Ralph of everything under sun since he founded the team. And yet the Bills still play in Buffalo, even though he could have sold them 50 times over. Leave the old guy alone. If not, root for another team already. PTR A bore? Nonsense. Ralph has had absolutely no incentive to sell this team. It is amongst the most profitable over the last ten years--earning profits in the 20-30 million range at times. And finding a buyer will not be easy. Ralph pays lip service to the concept of creating a winning team but where is the evidence? Renewing DJs contract tells you everything you need to know about Ralphs true priorities. This team has made him a vastly wealthy man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I'm not accusing him of anything really, and I'm not suggesting at all that the Bills are leaving if sold. He'd be smart to sell before 2011 if he wants to maximize his investment and he appears to be positioning himself well. actually, he'd be stupid to sell...period. He'd have to pay a crapload of taxes on the sale...and when he passes away, his heirs would have to pay another crapload of taxes on the inheritance. Yeah...he's gonna pay double the taxes Whether people think he's got a good football mind or not is irrelevant. He's pretty much always been a good businessman and someone voluntarily paying double the taxes when they don't have to is anything but smart.. There are 2 possible ways to avoid double taxation. 1 is the Bills going up for sale upon his death...his heirs would have to pay taxes on the sale but I don't believe they'd have to pay any on the estate...but I'm not 100% certain on that. 2..the team is left to Mary Wilson (his wife)...no inheritance tax when left to your spouse...rumor is that this is what's going to happen and she plans on selling to Kelly's group of investors. She'd pay taxes on the sale only...no double taxation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 You know threads like these are a bore. So-called Bills fans have accused Ralph of everything under sun since he founded the team. And yet the Bills still play in Buffalo, even though he could have sold them 50 times over. Leave the old guy alone. If not, root for another team already. PTR Threads like this are beyond a bore. They are completely stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I believe he is positioning the team to be sold..............................upon his death. That means a MEDIOCRE team until he dies.......................then the Bills will be sold & moved. My advice to all Bills fans, do as we did in the 70's & 80's Go to the games, PARTY, have a GOOD TIME, just don't expect the Bills to WIN. well said.. go to the games against other bad teams, so at least the day will be fun and the team wins... when they play the Pats, etc. do something else that day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 You know threads like these are a bore. So-called Bills fans have accused Ralph of everything under sun since he founded the team. And yet the Bills still play in Buffalo, even though he could have sold them 50 times over. Leave the old guy alone. If not, root for another team already. PTR Well said, Promo. It's a shame no one will take your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Well if the Bills are going to stay in Buffalo but not even try to be championship team then just sell the team... I've been dealing with this team for 30 + years and we had one good run, just one. Now we are stuck with a team where no FA really wants otplay, a team that has pawned off one of its home games every year to Toronto, a head coach that has no busines retaining his job in 2009, and a owner who refuses to do what it takes to field a winner... some of you younger Bills fans may look for silver linings... but at this point just having a team in Buffalo is not good enough and if that is all we get from Ralph then screw it... there is no point in just having a football team, the whole point is to win championships. Promo says leave the old guy alone... Hell no.. tell the old man to get off his ass and make the real decisions that make this club a championship club... either that or cancel the damn Toronto games, give them their millions back and the city of Buffalo can successfully support the Bills if we are not going to buy the needed parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just to play the devil's advocate here, what about the concept of winning a superbowl to add value to the team and sell it for more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The Capital gains tax is almost certain to rise. Even if the team were sold on the cheap at $700 million and with a current cap-gains rate of 15%, he'd pay about $100 million in cap gains tax (or less if he has a lot of retained earnings on the books). This rate expires after 2010. If the rate is increased to 25% under Obama in 2011 (which is quite possible), his tax bill could rise by almost $70 million if he waits (or dies later). Wait though, it gets better......The current estate tax rate for 2009 is 45% but is waived in 2010. In 2011 the estate tax rate is 55% on the portion above $3 million. HUGE! If Ralph dies this year or in 2011 and beyond, his estate pays a hefty sum, especially if in 2011 and beyond. If he sells the team or a majority stake in the team while alive, he saves literally hundreds of millions of dollars. He's got a nice window through 2010. After that it gets really expensive if the team is sold or passed on to his family and then sold. We know Ralph loves the Bills and loves money. I really believe some plan has been in the works. What he likely didn't anticipate was the current economic climate which would certainly reduce the value of the team. Even with that, a sale on the cheap while alive will provide his family with a lot more cash. Hundreds of millions more. I really believe this could be the plan. It just adds up. Thoughts? I read that the Dems are going to eliminate the 2010 estate tax exoneration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 actually, he'd be stupid to sell...period. He'd have to pay a crapload of taxes on the sale...and when he passes away, his heirs would have to pay another crapload of taxes on the inheritance.Yeah...he's gonna pay double the taxes Whether people think he's got a good football mind or not is irrelevant. He's pretty much always been a good businessman and someone voluntarily paying double the taxes when they don't have to is anything but smart.. There are 2 possible ways to avoid double taxation. 1 is the Bills going up for sale upon his death...his heirs would have to pay taxes on the sale but I don't believe they'd have to pay any on the estate...but I'm not 100% certain on that. 2..the team is left to Mary Wilson (his wife)...no inheritance tax when left to your spouse...rumor is that this is what's going to happen and she plans on selling to Kelly's group of investors. She'd pay taxes on the sale only...no double taxation Thanks for actually reading what was posted and making intelligent and informed remarks. Many others here simply view this as "the team will be sold and moved", or the whole financial discussion is over their heads. I really believe that Ralph would like the team to stay in Buffalo. I don't know either if leaving the team to a daughter would result in double taxation. Scenario #2 looks like the better move if he were to die assuming Mary is still around. Regardless, there looks to be a huge tax incentive for Ralph to sell before the end of 2010 assuming he could find a buyer that would pay him market value or close in that timeframe. Wouldn't suprise me at all if that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 I read that the Dems are going to eliminate the 2010 estate tax exoneration... That would not be a surprise. We elected change and we're getting it. Tax and spend is now spend and tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I wish people would stop making the assertion that Wilson will (or should) sell any portion of the team- it makes no financial sense to do so. Keepthefaith, your initial comment is simply wrong. Philster is correct, Wilson will NEVER sell the team prior to death. If Wilson sells the team while alive he must pay the capital gains tax, then at death (unless he dies in '11) the estate tax will also be assessed. However, if he does not sell the team and passes away, he will not pay capital gains tax, rather, only the estate tax will be applied. In essence if he sells he will be taxed twice, rather than once if he does not sell. By holding the team until death he will avoid the capital gains tax, which will be astronomical given the fact the team has increased in value by some $700-800 million. That is why he wont sell the team or any portion of the team, as even if he sold a minority share, it would trigger capital gains tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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