ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 "Thursday's implosion followed yet another set of marathon negotiations at the Capitol — this time involving labor, the auto industry and lawmakers. The group came close to agreement, but it stalled over the UAW's refusal to agree to the wage concessions." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081212/ap_on_...l4IEi9__soDW7oF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Is the bailout really a good solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Is the bailout really a good solution? I am really torn by that question. But I do know wall street thought it was good, I think we will be down at least 3% on the open, and am really scared to see where this thing heads as the day goes on. The unions think no way does the gov not bail the big three out. Big fuggin risk. These boys go chapter 11 I think they can go non union???? I think, not sure on that. Cource, they go out o business, no jobs either. People I feel really bad for is the retirees. These folks planned their golden years on promises from the company, now that may be turned all upside down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I am really torn by that question. But I do know wall street thought it was good, I think we will be down at least 3% on the open, and am really scared to see where this thing heads as the day goes on. The unions think no way does the gov not bail the big three out. Big fuggin risk. These boys go chapter 11 I think they can go non union???? I think, not sure on that. Cource, they go out o business, no jobs either. People I feel really bad for is the retirees. These folks planned their golden years on promises from the company, now that may be turned all upside down. That's it in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, again. Blame the union. Fact again is that union already had wage reduction as a concession for 2010. And can we stop calling this a bail out. It's a loan. And I think it's sad that republicans are so willing to break the unions that they will let this fail. Just goes to show that their states aren't effected as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZC-Boston Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I don't see why the big 3 should be any better than anybody else. Let them file for bankruptcy and sort their sh-- out. PS - I'm not a TARP fan either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, again. Blame the union. Fact again is that union already had wage reduction as a concession for 2010. And can we stop calling this a bail out. It's a loan. And I think it's sad that republicans are so willing to break the unions that they will let this fail. Just goes to show that their states aren't effected as much. Politics 101 my friend. My guess is that the unions did not endorse a single republican in this years election, so it is the lame duck Senate's response. Hourly wages are one thing, but benefits / pension are another. The rest of us save for our own retirement and pay for a portion of our healthcare, why shouldn't they. It is very apparent that the manufacturers cannot be competitive with the current cost of their labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 People I feel really bad for is the retirees. These folks planned their golden years on promises from the company, now that may be turned all upside down. It's tough for me to feel bad for uneducated, unskilled workers making $30 an hour for 30+ years. They had it good. Time to apply at Walmart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, again. Blame the union. Fact again is that union already had wage reduction as a concession for 2010. And can we stop calling this a bail out. It's a loan. And I think it's sad that republicans are so willing to break the unions that they will let this fail. Just goes to show that their states aren't effected as much. You go to banks for a loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Politics 101 my friend. My guess is that the unions did not endorse a single republican in this years election, so it is the lame duck Senate's response. Hourly wages are one thing, but benefits / pension are another. The rest of us save for our own retirement and pay for a portion of our healthcare, why shouldn't they. It is very apparent that the manufacturers cannot be competitive with the current cost of their labor. The UAW has already offered and ratified changes in their contract that will reduce pension plans, health care (retiree health care taken on by the UAW) and hourly wages (effective 2010). So for people to say greedy is ridiculous. They have done a ton to help the companies out. Hell just restructuring retiree health care saves billions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 From CNN: Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research. The benefit costs are significantly greater for U.S. automakers, though, because they have to pay health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees. The union agreed to close much of that gap in the 2007 labor agreements by shifting responsibility for retiree health care to union-controlled trust funds. But those changes won't take effect until 2010. So republican leaders (Mitch McConnell = ahole) what's the real reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 The UAW has already offered and ratified changes in their contract that will reduce pension plans, health care (retiree health care taken on by the UAW) and hourly wages (effective 2010). So for people to say greedy is ridiculous. They have done a ton to help the companies out. Hell just restructuring retiree health care saves billions. Too little too late. It was the greed of the past, along with poor management from the Auto Companies that got them into this mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Too little too late. It was the greed of the past, along with poor management from the Auto Companies that got them into this mess in the first place. Can't agree with the greed part of that. Maybe when it comes to health care, but we know that is expensive for everyone. No wonder why contracts are so expensive. It's easy to blame everything on the union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux of Borg Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I am really torn by that question. But I do know wall street thought it was good, I think we will be down at least 3% on the open, and am really scared to see where this thing heads as the day goes on. The unions think no way does the gov not bail the big three out. Big fuggin risk. These boys go chapter 11 I think they can go non union???? I think, not sure on that. Cource, they go out o business, no jobs either. People I feel really bad for is the retirees. These folks planned their golden years on promises from the company, now that may be turned all upside down. From my understanding, the automakers don't have enough money to file for chapter 11. It's expensive to restructure and they would need the bailout money for that. With chapter 11, the UAW labor contracts and other liabilities will be discharged by the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, again. Blame the union. Fact again is that union already had wage reduction as a concession for 2010. And can we stop calling this a bail out. It's a loan. And I think it's sad that republicans are so willing to break the unions that they will let this fail. Just goes to show that their states aren't effected as much. It's only a 'loan' if they pay it back - in GM's case, that's not likely. All the Senate asked for was 'wage parity' with other automakers that aren't seeking a government handout - i.e., $47/hr. for Toyota, Honda, et al, vs. $75/hr. for GM. So, it's not the Republicans that are breaking the unions - it's the UAW that's breaking the American auto industry. The outrageous UAW wage/benefit scale has made our auto industry completely and totally incapable of competing on a global scale, so now they can reap the whirlwind. Not to sound too callous, but most of 'em don't have skills that will earn $30/hr. anywhere else, much less $75. Here is the UAW's achievement: As of today: GM stock: $2.81 Net worth of company: $2.5 billion Cash burn: over $1 Billion a month Net result: In need of a government bailout so only about 100,000 jobs are terminated in a merger with Chrysler vs. 3,000,000 in a bankruptcy. Toyota stock: $61.44 Net worth of company: $111 billion Cash Burn: not a topic Net result: The largest auto manufacturer in the world still expanding business. The gravy train is no more. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Can't agree with the greed part of that. Maybe when it comes to health care, but we know that is expensive for everyone. No wonder why contracts are so expensive. It's easy to blame everything on the union. I am not blaming everything on the union, as these dolt managers obviously had a lot to do with it as well. But just cause the union is "giving" some things back, does not mean they are without blame either. May be small but do not talk to me how they have given back on the "job bank". Never should have been there in the first place. I am not saying that for all their bargained items, just saying.But it is this kind of stuff that turns the average non-unionized guy so much anti union "GM Pinches Every Penny to Stay Alive Posted on: Thursday, 30 October 2008, 06:45 CDT By Sharon Silke Carty DETROIT -- In its fight for survival on many fronts, General Motors is pushing to save every penny it can, even pressing plant workers to shut off lights, turn off air compressors and lower the heat. The drive to pinch pennies came two weeks ago, says David Green, president of United Auto Workers Local 1714 in Lordstown, Ohio, when the plant there was told workers could no longer work overtime. Workers decided to cancel a bake sale they hold each year for the Toys For Tots program because GM wouldn't let some line workers earn pay while working at the sale as it has done in the past. It's tough for me to feel bad for uneducated, unskilled workers making $30 an hour for 30+ years. They had it good. Time to apply at Walmart. I have relatives that were lifelong white collar workers at GM, retired 3 years ago at ages 60 and 58. Worked close to 40 years at GM, now they are looking at having to go back to work as this thing plays out. While I blame the union for a lot, I feel for all retired workers who planned their lives around one circumstance, and the reality is turning out much differant from no fault of their own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVUFootball29 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 It's only a 'loan' if they pay it back - in GM's case, that's not likely. All the Senate asked for was 'wage parity' with other automakers that aren't seeking a government handout - i.e., $47/hr. for Toyota, Honda, et al, vs. $75/hr. for GM. So, it's not the Republicans that are breaking the unions - it's the UAW that's breaking the American auto industry. The outrageous UAW wage/benefit scale has made our auto industry completely and totally incapable of competing on a global scale, so now they can reap the whirlwind. Not to sound too callous, but most of 'em don't have skills that will earn $30/hr. anywhere else, much less $75. Here is the UAW's achievement: As of today: GM stock: $2.81 Net worth of company: $2.5 billion Cash burn: over $1 Billion a month Net result: In need of a government bailout so only about 100,000 jobs are terminated in a merger with Chrysler vs. 3,000,000 in a bankruptcy. Toyota stock: $61.44 Net worth of company: $111 billion Cash Burn: not a topic Net result: The largest auto manufacturer in the world still expanding business. The gravy train is no more. Sorry. How long until pBills comes and tells us the UAW workers aren't making $75 and the Republicans are making that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 It's only a 'loan' if they pay it back - in GM's case, that's not likely. All the Senate asked for was 'wage parity' with other automakers that aren't seeking a government handout - i.e., $47/hr. for Toyota, Honda, et al, vs. $75/hr. for GM. So, it's not the Republicans that are breaking the unions - it's the UAW that's breaking the American auto industry. The outrageous UAW wage/benefit scale has made our auto industry completely and totally incapable of competing on a global scale, so now they can reap the whirlwind. Not to sound too callous, but most of 'em don't have skills that will earn $30/hr. anywhere else, much less $75. Here is the UAW's achievement: Please stop blaming the union. It's absolutely ridiculous. And I have no idea how many times I have to say this. Parity relating to benefits would come through the concessions the UAW has already taken on. Any other cut would be ridiculous. I find it sad that these people can't/won't see what will happen if these companies go under. The cities in which GM plants reside will eventually die... and more people will out of work. Just sad. And who are you to say what they are worth? The government really wants to help companies and people out fix the f'ing health care industry. How long until pBills comes and tells us the UAW workers aren't making $75 and the Republicans are making that up? Making $75/hr including benefit packages. Which read above the UAW has already billions of dollars worth of concessions. What else does the worker have to give up? How about working for $7 per hour... would that be good for some of you people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The UAW has already offered and ratified changes in their contract that will reduce pension plans, health care (retiree health care taken on by the UAW) and hourly wages (effective 2010). So for people to say greedy is ridiculous. They have done a ton to help the companies out. Hell just restructuring retiree health care saves billions. Simple question that you will never answer: Do they or do they not have higher comp (including all of their so called "concessions") than their non-union counterparts at the US plants for Honda or Toyota? They are asking for OUR money to pay for their free health care of life. And that is GREEDY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Simple question that you will never answer: Do they or do they not have higher comp (including all of their so called "concessions") than their non-union counterparts at the US plants for Honda or Toyota? They are asking for OUR money to pay for their free health care of life. And that is GREEDY. Oh here we go. Let me answer AGAIN. Yes. Once concessions come in to play their pay including benefits will place them roughly $5-$6 higher than the FOREIGN-owned automaker employees. Are they asking you for you to pay for their health care for life. Um no. I thought you were smarter than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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