IDBillzFan Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 While reforming the autoworker unions is definitely necessary, let's not forget about all the other stupid union/union rules that pollute our nation, like when you got to set up a booth for your trade show, but you can't plug a light into an electrical socket because some rule states you gotta have a union electrician come and do that for you. Which takes around an hour or more to make happen. Or that your gear sits on the loading dock for hours until some union guy comes around to load up the 3 smallish boxes on a dolley to wheel 20 feet to your stall. I'm sure people here have tons of examples of stupid union rules they could tell. I did a tradeshow in Chicago a number of years ago with a stupid pop-up display on which we'd hang vecro'd signs. It took all of an hour to set the entire thing up. A guy came by our booth and told us that we needed a union decorator to hang our signs. I had to take my signs down, and then hire the decorator for a minimum of one hour to put them back up. He was done in about 30 seconds and started to leave. I told him to have a seat for the next 59 minutes, which he was more than happy to do. And that doesn't count the number of times I've done large shows and was waiting on crates from drayage. They would actually be driving to our booth with the crates on a forklift, a horn would blow, and they would literally stop in front of our booth, turn off the forklift, and leave our crates in the air until break was over. Of course, $20 would easily get them down if you could get them to listen to you. Little wonder I hate unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 And that doesn't count the number of times I've done large shows and was waiting on crates from drayage. They would actually be driving to our booth with the crates on a forklift, a horn would blow, and they would literally stop in front of our booth, turn off the forklift, and leave our crates in the air until break was over. Of course, $20 would easily get them down if you could get them to listen to you. Michael Moore should do his next documentary on them...oh wait, nm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Michael Moore should do his next documentary on them...oh wait, nm. Brief, interesting story from this past Thanksgiving: we were joined this year by my wife's uncle's father, who is about 90 years old or so. The topic turned to the bailout, and I came to find out his father was GM employee number 17. He, himself, actually worked for GM for almost 20 years, and opted to leave to start up a car dealership here in SoCal; a venture which he admitted failed miserably. He was very quick to pin this current mess on GM and UAW. I was surprised to hear this from him. I just assumed he'd be bitching about the economy, but he said that over the years, GM has permitted UAW to have so many concessions that he was surprised they didn't end up in the crapper sooner. Probably the smart thing to do would be for all the GM employees to stage a sit-in until Bank of America forks over some cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Probably the smart thing to do would be for all the GM employees to stage a sit-in until Bank of America forks over some cash. Or in this case "America the Bank".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Probably the smart thing to do would be for all the GM employees to stage a sit-in until Bank of America forks over some cash. I think the union guys would get paid double time for that, and triple time if its a nice day outside. Not to mention BoA wouldn't actually be able to hand the cash over themselves, they'd need a union liasion to collect the cash, 3 more to count it, and countless more to take it to GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I think the union guys would get paid double time for that, and triple time if its a nice day outside. Not to mention BoA wouldn't actually be able to hand the cash over themselves, they'd need a union liasion to collect the cash, 3 more to count it, and countless more to take it to GM. You forgot the other 2 guys - one to stand there watching and looking stupid, and another to stand there picking his nose while otherwise doing absolutely nothing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 You forgot the other 2 guys - one to stand there watching and looking stupid, and another to stand there picking his nose while otherwise doing absolutely nothing at all. Well, at least we will have plenty of unemployed people doing that now instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I am really torn by that question. But I do know wall street thought it was good, I think we will be down at least 3% on the open, and am really scared to see where this thing heads as the day goes on. So far, the retail news was better than expected and it just shows that the world doesn't revolve around Detroit. (The real fun comes from 3-4pm though.) Who to blame for this mess? The UAW. Management. I don't blame one at the exclusion of the other. Both proved inept. For GM and Chrysler, the bankruptcy is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. No one will buy a GM car because they are so fcked. If no one buys, the hole gets that much deeper. I say give 'em enough money for 3-6 months and if they don't show marked signs of restructuring by then, off to bankruptcy. In 3-6 months, they can spin down and off some dead weight. The longer it waits to restructure deals, the more the burden is on the taxpayer. Screw that. By giving just enough to get through a few months, the onus is on GM to work this out faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 With some of the anti-union comments... I guess ignorance is bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVUFootball29 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 With some of the anti-union comments... I guess ignorance is bliss. All you got left? We hate the unions because we are stupid.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 All you got left? We hate the unions because we are stupid.? You might not be, but you are letting your hate cloud your judgement on the larger issue here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet, but really I don't get why everything has to be union/anti-union as far as this debate goes (for the record, I'm generally anti-union). The simple fact is, these companies have failed. That's it. We, as consumers, have had the option to go to a number of car dealerships, and after all the research and/or pure gut, we overwhelmingly decided against buying thier products. Now these companies are saying "that's fine, go ahead and choose another product, but you still need to pay us anyway." What kind of sense does that make? Who's to blame just doesn't matter. Management? Unions? That's not the point! The point is ALL off the practices of these companies put together have failed. Back during the first go-round of these comapnies asking for money, I saw an interview with one of the Ford big-wigs. The anchor was asking him if they got the money, how would they change. He just kept saying over and over that Ford had a great business strategy and that it was well under way and that it would do great in the future. That was it, over and over. Keep doing what we're doing, hold strong, and we'll be okay! What is that saying of Einsteins about the definition of insanity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Screw that. By giving just enough to get through a few months, the onus is on GM to work this out faster. The problem is that 3 to 6 months from now GM will be in the same boat, but they will have burned through a $15B loan that they cannot repay. The collapse of GM has been a long time coming. The union and the corporartion want to believe that BK will be the end of the companies. It is already over. Start talking about how they can recover instead of delaying the inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yes, when the UAW gravy train leaves the station, just hop on the gov't dole. God forbid they should actually go find real work. Leaving aside the fact they do have real jobs now, I would ask if you have seen the lastest unemployment numbers? First-time claim applications jumped from 58,000 from the previous week and far past the 525,000 that economists expected, USA Today reported. The figure represents the highest number of jobless claims since Nov. 27, 1982, when new filings hit 612,000. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/busine...ates_12-11.html You can hate the unions all you want, just think alittle about the impact of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 You can hate the unions all you want, just think alittle about the impact of this The short term impact will be tragic but the economy will recover and be stronger because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The short term impact will be tragic but the economy will recover and be stronger because of it. Yes, if this becomes a precedent. We have to stop ALL the bailouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 With some of the anti-union comments... I guess ignorance is bliss. Apparently, since you are unable to refute any of the arguments against the union deals but keep banging your head against that same wall. Greed is good, huh p? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 What skills or qualifications do they have to entitle them to earn $6 more per employee than Toyota, Nissan, or Hyundai? (Your failure to respond says it all.) Does a 4 year college education count? Now, hear me out... Not all workers have that... But, if they do... Should they earn more. Don't many people today have college under their belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 With some of the anti-union comments... I guess ignorance is bliss. you still haven't justified why your buddies are worth paying an additional $7B per year. I am still waiting to hear your reasoning. Please tell me why I am ignorant. If you don't respond my guess is that you don't have a reason and you should stop posting on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I haven't gotten through the whole thread yet, but really I don't get why everything has to be union/anti-union as far as this debate goes (for the record, I'm generally anti-union). The simple fact is, these companies have failed. That's it. We, as consumers, have had the option to go to a number of car dealerships, and after all the research and/or pure gut, we overwhelmingly decided against buying thier products. Now these companies are saying "that's fine, go ahead and choose another product, but you still need to pay us anyway." What kind of sense does that make? Who's to blame just doesn't matter. Management? Unions? That's not the point! The point is ALL off the practices of these companies put together have failed. Back during the first go-round of these comapnies asking for money, I saw an interview with one of the Ford big-wigs. The anchor was asking him if they got the money, how would they change. He just kept saying over and over that Ford had a great business strategy and that it was well under way and that it would do great in the future. That was it, over and over. Keep doing what we're doing, hold strong, and we'll be okay! What is that saying of Einsteins about the definition of insanity? Ford may be the only 1 of the three to make it through this without touching a dime of gov't money. They saw the end in sight around 2005, and started taking their new business plan to BANKS and getting loans so that they would have the capital to make it through these tough times. GM and Chrysler didn't do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts