Sketch Soland Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 From what I know, Cho was as citizen... Resident alien, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Actually, it pretty much sounds like he was persecuted. But no worse than a whole lot of other high school students (no worse than I was, for sure). He just handled it "poorly", and apparently had a very active and unrealistic fantasy life. Which again, is pretty much typical (witness the Columbine shooters), and pretty much not an indicator (again, I handled high school poorly, and had an active fantasy life - though not nearly as active as Cho or the Columbine shooters, it seems. And again, haven't killed anyone yet.) You make a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 You make a good point. Having one myself, I've studied abnormal psych. The one thing you'll almost certainly not hear in the media's groping for an explanation of this is that when people (esp. teenagers, it seems) feel powerless in their lives but desperately need to feel like they can exert some control over their world, the resolution is not infrequently violent. Often suicide, frequently acting out aggressively, rarely but occasionally acting out aggressively to the degree that you gun people down. Cho fits this pattern as perfectly as anyone I've ever heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Having one myself, I've studied abnormal psych. The one thing you'll almost certainly not hear in the media's groping for an explanation of this is that when people (esp. teenagers, it seems) feel powerless in their lives but desperately need to feel like they can exert some control over their world, the resolution is not infrequently violent. Often suicide, frequently acting out aggressively, rarely but occasionally acting out aggressively to the degree that you gun people down. Cho fits this pattern as perfectly as anyone I've ever heard of. The following article provides some insight into his past and is completely consistent with what you are saying. Article describing Cho's childhood Kids can be cruel - especially to those whom they perceive as being different. Clearly, there is no excuse or justification for what he did. Nevertheless, it does make sense for schools to try to spot this type of thing early on and try to help young kids (especially from other societies) adjust to the culture here. The same is true for kids like the ones at Columbine. Again, let's be clear, there is no excuse for what these kids did. Yet, the more we can find out about the underlying causes, the more we would be able to do something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyemike Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I think that everyone has the potential to become violent at some point. Look at the minister's wife in Tennessee who filled her husband full of shotgun pellets. She looks like a mousy little woman, but apparently, he did enough to set her off, including physical abuse and rage over financial problems. Everyone is capable of killing another person. But, 99.9% of the population has the little safety valve that lets off steam. And whether that valve is golf or internet pornography or whatever, that can only be a good thing. The VT shooter didn't have that. He had a Christ complex, wanting to judge who lived and who died, because he believed himself to be persecuted. Hey, we've all been persecuted, whether it's being made fun of in junior high and being the regular victim of "swirlies" or the girls who won't give us the time of day, to the problems with our bosses in our jobs. But, we live with it. We survive. And hopefully, we improve from adversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The kid was acting out pretty badly for at least a year before the incident, including the silent treatment, starting fires, stalking and other very very bizarre behavior. Face it, he was a very sick fella, no question. Some people are just plain mentally ill, and looking for a "cause" might be fruitless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The kid was acting out pretty badly for at least a year before the incident, including the silent treatment, starting fires, stalking and other very very bizarre behavior. Face it, he was a very sick fella, no question. Some people are just plain mentally ill, and looking for a "cause" might be fruitless. Looking for preventive measures might not be, though. I know this could be really dicey as medical records are generally a very private thing but if there was a way to integrate mental health records into the required background checks for gun purchases it could save lives. I'm not sure if it is or could be done but if so, it would be beyond worthwhile, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Looking for preventive measures might not be, though. I know this could be really dicey as medical records are generally a very private thing but if there was a way to integrate mental health records into the required background checks for gun purchases it could save lives. I'm not sure if it is or could be done but if so, it would be beyond worthwhile, IMO. I thought I heard he was sent to outpatient therapy, but if he had actually been admitted as opposed to outpatient treatment, he could have never purchased the guns. Not sure how true that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Looking for preventive measures might not be, though. I know this could be really dicey as medical records are generally a very private thing but if there was a way to integrate mental health records into the required background checks for gun purchases it could save lives. I'm not sure if it is or could be done but if so, it would be beyond worthwhile, IMO. very good point. This article points out some of the legal problems that Universities face in these cases... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/us/19pro...21600&en=76 Virginia has a law on the books FORBIDDING universities to dismiss suicidal students... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The problem is, this asshat shouldn't be the focus. HIS VICTIMS SHOULD BE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The problem is, this asshat shouldn't be the focus. HIS VICTIMS SHOULD BE. Yes and no. We shouldn't let this kid be the martyr that he can become with constant media exposure. However, the best way to honor the memory of these victims is to ensure that people like this kid are identified, helped if possible, and certainly prevented from obtaining the tools with which to commit such horror -- that is, the best way to honor these victims is to try to make sure there are less / no victims in the future. If part of that process means discussing this and moving towards adjusting laws, that's important, AFAIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The following article provides some insight into his past and is completely consistent with what you are saying. Article describing Cho's childhood Kids can be cruel - especially to those whom they perceive as being different. Clearly, there is no excuse or justification for what he did. Nevertheless, it does make sense for schools to try to spot this type of thing early on and try to help young kids (especially from other societies) adjust to the culture here. The same is true for kids like the ones at Columbine. Again, let's be clear, there is no excuse for what these kids did. Yet, the more we can find out about the underlying causes, the more we would be able to do something about it. Yet, schools are constantly getting their budgets cut so we can afford a new bazooka or tank. While there is no sure fire answer, more counselors and social workers at schools would be a start in the right direction. Too many messed up kids slip through the cracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Yet, schools are constantly getting their budgets cut so we can afford a new bazooka or tank. While there is no sure fire answer, more counselors and social workers at schools would be a start in the right direction. Too many messed up kids slip through the cracks. OOOOOOR...we could just restore parental authority and discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 The problem is, this asshat shouldn't be the focus. HIS VICTIMS SHOULD BE. Certainly, the victims should all be in our thoughts and prayers. Based on what I have read, every one of them has a unique and interesting story. The students all seemed to be bright young kids who had promising and rewarding futures taken away from them -- for reasons that have nothing to do with anything that they did. The professors and teachers were outstanding. The Holocaust survivor's story is particularly poignant. I saw the parents and friend of the graduate student who went to Penn State undergrad on Larry King last night. They had so much dignity. Their son also seemed to be a remarkable person. Nevertheless, I would like to learn more about Cho -- not to glorify him or his action -- but to try to understand more about him and his family. The little I know is that his parents gave up everything to come here for a better life. They arrived here with next to nothing but their kids. The parents seemed to have sacrificed their lives for their kids. They work as dry cleaners, which has to be a difficult and thankless job. The daughter graduated from Princeton. She obviously must be pretty accomplished. The son (Cho), based on what I have read, was picked on since he arrived here. In fact, it has been reported that he was laughed at when he spoke in class when he was younger and basically stopped talking to people after that. That might explain why he did not respond to anyone or was afraid to have any kind of relationship with anyone -- beyond text messaging. The whole affair is very sad and depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 OOOOOOR...we could just restore parental authority and discipline. I agree 100%. The only problem is there are some many single parent homes and crappy parents who don't do their job. Perfect example: http://www.buffalonews.com/151/story/56497.html Personally, I would have take a slapshot at the kid. But I don't have kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 OOOOOOR...we could just restore parental authority and discipline. Yeah, the stupid kid with the mental illness just needs to be slapped around a little. Edit: not that I have a problem with parental authority or parents raising their children with some discipline, that is, when necessary, forceful and most of all purposeful. I just think that doesn't have much to do with someone who has a mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Looking for preventive measures might not be, though. I know this could be really dicey as medical records are generally a very private thing but if there was a way to integrate mental health records into the required background checks for gun purchases it could save lives. I'm not sure if it is or could be done but if so, it would be beyond worthwhile, IMO. Except that it's logically fallacious. The people who do NOT get treatment - and hence do not have mental health records - are the people you have to worry about. The people who get treatment are far less likely to be a risk. And it's important to note that Cho probably did NOT get treatment. He was referred for counseling to an outpatient clinic, he was prescribed antidepressants - but that's not "treatment". Mental health treatment is a long-term process, be it counseling or psychopharmacology. I'd lay odds that he never talked to anyone more than three times, and never got more than six weeks' worth of drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 Except that it's logically fallacious. The people who do NOT get treatment - and hence do not have mental health records - are the people you have to worry about. The people who get treatment are far less likely to be a risk. And it's important to note that Cho probably did NOT get treatment. He was referred for counseling to an outpatient clinic, he was prescribed antidepressants - but that's not "treatment". Mental health treatment is a long-term process, be it counseling or psychopharmacology. I'd lay odds that he never talked to anyone more than three times, and never got more than six weeks' worth of drugs. I guess I'm saying that if they were referred that that should somehow be part of the background check -- not if they received treatment, though even if someone has received treatment and is less of a risk to self/others, I'm not sure that says they're alright to buy assault weapons. I have admittedly less experience with mental illness than many around here but from what I've seen treatment is a constant process that has its own highs and lows and relapses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 as much as i think it was pretty low of NBC to broadcast that stuff so brazenly, i think it was worth it for that pic of him with the hammer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 19, 2007 Share Posted April 19, 2007 I have admittedly less experience with mental illness than many around here but from what I've seen treatment is a constant process that has its own highs and lows and relapses. Most definitely. I'll never own a gun, of my own choice, because I will be suicidal again at some indeterminate point in the future. But I'm not sure that, because I choose not to, it means I can't or shouldn't be allowed - nor does it mean that because I personally believe that I'm personally not safe to own a gun, others with my condition should be restricted. Although incidents like VT are almost always (if not always - I can't think of a counter-example, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist) preceded by evidence of mental illness, that does not mean that mental illness predicts such incidents. And I'm very leery of violating privacy when it comes to medical information (having been fired before for being bipolar). So on it's face...yeah, I understand what you're saying, and where it's coming from. But the issues surrounding it (legal, particularly) rapidly get very complex, enough so to demonstrate that there's not a simple panacea solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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