Do the Bills now have the worst defense in NFL?

[BADOLBILZ]

Badol, I'm not going there with you, although I agree that it's debatable. Miami had an *excellent* defense that season, and moreover, the game before, the bills faced jax (with henderson and stroud) and henry had something like 27 carries for 28 yards. They decided to favor the pass against Miami on the road on Sunday night, and they were so full of themselves going into the game that it bordered on the comical (remember those asinine "pumped up" ads featuring spikes and fletcher made specifically for that game?). Of course, Miami had a good front seven and a solid secondary, and that was all she wrote.

 

Price is not a popular guy. Nobody wanted to miss him. But the fact remains, that without that deep threat to back them off, opposing defenses became much more aggressive which served a dual purpose of disrupting Bledsoe AND the running game. A year later they were using their first round pick on a deep threat WR. Actions speak louder than words.

 

They had an identity offensively, and decided to change it completely and it ended up becoming a disaster. The current Bills are taking a simialar risk by taking away the two guys who consistently took away the football and made plays in the passing game on third downs.

[dave mcbride]

Price is not a popular guy. Nobody wanted to miss him. But the fact remains, that without that deep threat to back them off, opposing defenses became much more aggressive which served a dual purpose of disrupting Bledsoe AND the running game. A year later they were using their first round pick on a deep threat WR. Actions speak louder than words.

 

They had an identity offensively, and decided to change it completely and it ended up becoming a disaster. The current Bills are taking a simialar risk by taking away the two guys who consistently took away the football and made plays in the passing game on third downs.

You're barking up the wrong tree. I feel like I'm one of the three of three or four Peerless Price fans in this world.

[BuffaloBilliever]

I must be one of the other two... I love Fearless.

[Ramius]

The Bills defense was very bad prior to the bye week changes. Now the key player in that change(Clements) is gone, and the steady, consistent, durable MLB is gone as well. I'm not a big fan of Fletcher, he can't stack and shed so his defenses will always be vulnerable to the run at his position, but he and Clements were the guys who came away with the turnovers. That's kinda' important.

 

There are really no solutions in FA. The draft........well let's just say we aren't going to replace that production next season from the draft. The next time that happens will be the first. And that is to get back to last year's level. Which wasn't good enough. Not to throw a wet blanket on the acquisition of a good guard and some JAGs but, how is this progress? Have the Bills gone from being one of the worst run defenses to being the worst defense?

 

THIS will help you get through the offseason.

 

 

This game is REAL. It's not a soap opera played out on TV. Those of us that go to the games, see the entire field and see what's actually happening on the sidelines have a different perspective than those of you who get all of their info from Don Criqui. Steve Tasker isn't going to tell you that Bryce Paup's groin is bothering him so badly he can barely get his d*ck out of his pants to piss in the garbage can on the sideline. But Mikey, 8 rows up, will. Then when I come here and say Bryce Paup is still f*cked a year after his injury, I get a bunch of nonsense replies from people like you.

 

Ahhh, gotta love the old "i go to the games, so i know more than you" posts.

 

By the way, you pay all the money for tix just to look at bryce Paup's dick?

[Dawgg]

Also love the good old "I don't criticize any of the moves the Bills make so I'm smarter than you" posts.

 

 

THIS will help you get through the offseason.

Ahhh, gotta love the old "i go to the games, so i know more than you" posts.

 

By the way, you pay all the money for tix just to look at bryce Paup's dick?

[OCinBuffalo]

You're barking up the wrong tree. I feel like I'm one of the three of three or four Peerless Price fans in this world.

I guess that makes me #3....and I don't understand something:

 

If we know that signing Moulds to 10% of the cap wasn't such a great idea, why is signing Nate to 10% of the cap automatically a good idea? I'm not interested in "mitigating factors" that have already been offered. I'm only talking about putting that much bank on one player who clearly is not in the top 5 at his position. Seems like too much of a risk to me. The arguments about: "well, that is what we did for Dockery" do not hold water since he IS in the top 5 at his position.

 

Also, this thread reminds me of the "fantasy football/Madden mentality" that unfortunately seems to be the thing today. You can't "snap in" guys and have them work without first making sure that you have a great coaching staff and solid scheme for them to "snap into". Marv and Dick proved last year that they have a plan, that plan seems to be accomplishing the things we were told it would, so I suggest that we see what phase 2 looks like before we judge the whole plan as faulty.

 

Moving on to the "right now" question, YES the Bills have some work to do right now because a case can be made, as Badol and others have made, that we have some holes to fill. If we don't see some significant moves/draft picks, then yes, those holes will still be there. What I cannot agree with is that the Bills have the "WORST" defense in the league because I believe that there are other teams, such as the Redskins, with much bigger problems than us - hence the need for them to go and get Fletcher(umm... 32, lost a step, MLB on one of the worst run Ds last year). Think about it: why else would a team want to go out and get a guy whose original team(Bills) doesn't want him unless they were in much bigger trouble d-wise than that original team(Bills). I'm not saying that we look GREAT right now, but we look better than a lot of other teams.

 

(I would also like to remind all that we could be Patriots right now - with what amounts to having to fill 3 out of 4 starting slots on LB - since they just signed a 29 year old and whose remaining starters wouldn't be starting anywhere else - well unless you like 33-38 year old linebackers. I would much rather be in our position this year - for all you tools that want to talk about 5 years ago - than theirs.)

 

So, compared to other teams in the league, which is what the original question is based on - who has the worst d?, I would say that we don't have the worst d in the league right now, and, I would say that we have a hell of a lot more upside than most teams in the league. How far that upside will take us, who will be a "JAG" and who will be a pro-bowler, no one can say. It is clear that 90% of the guys we have on D right now have the potential to improve. And, since this is a team sport(not fantasy football), we have no idea how well the improvement of one player will affect others. In all cases, the fact that there is a significant chance for improvement from more than one guys lead me to be fairly optimistic.

 

And, anything(rookie, FA, Pro-Wrestler) is better than chasing a guy down after 5 yards - I was at 2 games last year in good seats(Jax and Miami) and I saw for myself that precise activity occur throughout both games. My father, a pretty darn good football coach, who was with me is yelling about getting rid of Fletcher to this day(I haven't told him about F-B being gone yet cause it's fun to get him going). I still don't know why Miami stopped running because Fletcher was getting chewed up, Jax ran on him the whole game(who's more to blame, when Garrard picked up that 4th and forever to set up their go ahead score in the 4th qtr., than the Middle linebacker?). I don't care who we bring in, they will be just as good as F-B in the chasing people, not sticking people, department. Hell, Coy Wire can do that and we already signed him.

[Ramius]

Also love the good old "I don't criticize any of the moves the Bills make so I'm smarter than you" posts.

 

 

Nope. I actually am willing to give the players and coaches a chance before i call for the tar and feathers. Sure, we lost or will lose some big components of our defense. But, newsflash. it wasnt very good to begin with. What you arent taking into account is that we have rookies who are going to get better, and we are letting go of an older player who is going to decline. Clements will hurt, but no way do we pay him 80 million. We still have the rest of FA and the draft to improve ourselves. I'm sure Angelo Crowell is at the very least capable of making 100 tackles 5-7 yards downfield, like fletch.

 

ITs amazing how many people B word here about the OL,and then when we sink money into the OL, they B word that we didnt keep clements.

[Dawgg]

Dockery -- great signing. Young player, reaching the prime of his career.

 

Walker -- an awful lot of change considering (a) there wasn't much competition for his services, (b) he played on one of the worst lines in recent memory and © we have a decent prospect on board with starting experience in Pennington. That signing is definitely raising some eyebrows around the league.

 

As for Clements... the whole thing makes me sick that our management allowed our most valuable asset walk away with nothing in return, especially when they held all the cards. If you're going to relinquish the franchise tag because you intend to sign him long-term (or at least try) FINE. If you knew all along you won't retain him and you still relinquish the franchise tag... that's just bad business.

 

At the very worst, keeping Clements franchised for one more year would have bought the team some more time to groom his replacement. Now, with 2 rookie safeties, what WAS a strength on the defense becomes a huge vulnerablity.

 

 

Nope. I actually am willing to give the players and coaches a chance before i call for the tar and feathers. Sure, we lost or will lose some big components of our defense. But, newsflash. it wasnt very good to begin with. What you arent taking into account is that we have rookies who are going to get better, and we are letting go of an older player who is going to decline. Clements will hurt, but no way do we pay him 80 million. We still have the rest of FA and the draft to improve ourselves. I'm sure Angelo Crowell is at the very least capable of making 100 tackles 5-7 yards downfield, like fletch.

 

ITs amazing how many people B word here about the OL,and then when we sink money into the OL, they B word that we didnt keep clements.

[BADOLBILZ]

By the way, you pay all the money for tix just to look at bryce Paup's dick?

 

Is this where I insert a joke about my d*ck and your wife/daughter/mother? I don't want to break protocol.

[Rico]

Badol,

 

 

Greatest thread ever.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

As for Clements... the whole thing makes me sick that our management allowed our most valuable asset walk away with nothing in return, especially when they held all the cards. If you're going to relinquish the franchise tag because you intend to sign him long-term (or at least try) FINE. If you knew all along you won't retain him and you still relinquish the franchise tag... that's just bad business.

 

At the very worst, keeping Clements franchised for one more year would have bought the team some more time to groom his replacement. Now, with 2 rookie safeties, what WAS a strength on the defense becomes a huge vulnerablity.

 

With the money it costs to franchise Clements counting against the cap this year, I doubt Derrick Dockery would be a Bill. Whats more valuable, one year of outstanding cornerback play, or seven years of a running game?

[generaLee83]

You're barking up the wrong tree. I feel like I'm one of the three of three or four Peerless Price fans in this world.

 

 

I'm with you on this one, many people are unsatisfied with Price's numbers this year. He had over 40 catches which I think is very decent considering that in games 1-8 Losman seldomly looked off of Evans.

 

Given all the circumstances, (bad OL for games 1-8, JP not looking off of his primary, short routes, etc) I think that Price played about as well as anyone could have.

 

This season he will produce much more I'd bet.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I'm with you on this one, many people are unsatisfied with Price's numbers this year. He had over 40 catches which I think is very decent considering that in games 1-8 Losman seldomly looked off of Evans.

 

Given all the circumstances, (bad OL for games 1-8, JP not looking off of his primary, short routes, etc) I think that Price played about as well as anyone could have.

 

This season he will produce much more I'd bet.

I doubt it. When would you say the offense opened up and JP's performance improved? Week 9 was Green Bay, week 10 was @ Indy, week 11 was @ Houston, and week 12 was Jacksonville...I'd say the offense opened up starting week 11 with the Texans, and I'm sure you'd agree. So drawing a line right where JP and the offense picked things up, here are Price's numbers:

 

first 9 games

27 catches, 3 catches/game

231 yards, 25.6 yards/game

 

last 7 games

22 catches, 3.1 catches/game

171 yards, 24.4 yards/game

 

stats are from here

 

 

As I see it, we have no reason to believe Price's production will be any better next year. Even when the passing game was clicking, he still wasn't providing us with what we need from our #2 reciever. With no increase in the numbers there's no reason to expect him to improve next season.

[GG]

Did you bother to answer the question posed IN THE TITLE OF THE THREAD?

 

Yes I did read the question posted in the thread, and that's why I had a hard time equating losing NC & LBF with turning into the worst defense in the NFL, when those guys were also on the squad when this unit went from #2 overall defense to #29. All the machinations Badol has done in this thread have veered far from his bile laden first post.

 

How did you come up with this little gem

 

Where did Badol mention Villarial or Gandy? Why is it an either or choice?

Because offseason doesn't exist in fantasy land, and choices have to be made. By reading a whine about not retaining NC & LBF on the first friggin day of free agency and signing three OLs leads a normal person to deduce that the complaint was about money being better spent in keeping the defensive players. Funny how Walker & Dockery are JAGs, while LBF is a key cog of the defense. Obviously, professionals who get paid to make these decisions and not ones wallowing in self pity in the eighth row, think otherwise.

 

I'm talking about the Bills run defense in any year under Gray according to stats provided by ESPN. Fact is that the run defense has gotten worse under this regime. TD/Gray may have sucked but that doesn't mean Levy/DJ can't be bad or worse.

 

Well, since you want to bring up the first post, the point was made that Bills will go from one of the worst run Ds to worst D overall. Whoopie, Bills gave up 49 more rush yards this year, so you win the point. Yet, the defense overall gave up 423 fewer yards in '06, with 4 rookies in the lineup for an extended period. So what's the argument, again? Oh yes, I trust Jauron's judgement over Gray's.

[Pyrite Gal]

I doubt it. When would you say the offense opened up and JP's performance improved? Week 9 was Green Bay, week 10 was @ Indy, week 11 was @ Houston, and week 12 was Jacksonville...I'd say the offense opened up starting week 11 with the Texans, and I'm sure you'd agree. So drawing a line right where JP and the offense picked things up, here are Price's numbers:

 

first 9 games

27 catches, 3 catches/game

231 yards, 25.6 yards/game

 

last 7 games

22 catches, 3.1 catches/game

171 yards, 24.4 yards/game

 

stats are from here

As I see it, we have no reason to believe Price's production will be any better next year. Even when the passing game was clicking, he still wasn't providing us with what we need from our #2 reciever. With no increase in the numbers there's no reason to expect him to improve next season.

I agree that PP was not providing us with what we wanted from our #2, but I think that the total number of catches he made, some nice toe work by him in a couple of episodes of his work, and the hints of some remaining good speed he showed uin pre-season last year indicates to me that while he did not produce the superior #2 we want from a #2, his production was adequate for a #2 WR in the NFL.

 

When I look to actually improving our output so that we get the production we want, I do not think this likely only will occur if we get better talent, but in fact I think the best way to improve this is for Fairchild to do a better job running the O. The primary problem I see with PP is that he was miscast and miaused as a possession WR as this is far from the highest and best use of his talents.

 

I'm not arguing that he was great because he isn't but Fairchild did not employ him in a manner where he plays his best game not in a manner that I think would have been best for the bills O. I appreciate that he felt he needed to bring JP along slowly but I think it simply meant that the score was tighter in loses to folks like Indy but we still lost.

[Pyrite Gal]

As for Clements... the whole thing makes me sick that our management allowed our most valuable asset walk away with nothing in return, especially when they held all the cards. If you're going to relinquish the franchise tag because you intend to sign him long-term (or at least try) FINE. If you knew all along you won't retain him and you still relinquish the franchise tag... that's just bad business.

 

At the very worst, keeping Clements franchised for one more year would have bought the team some more time to groom his replacement. Now, with 2 rookie safeties, what WAS a strength on the defense becomes a huge vulnerablity.

 

I disagree as it just is not the norm at all for teams to tag and trade their FAs. If so, then simply name all these players out there that were tagged by their teams and then traded to get some compensation. I think TD spoiled many of the fans here by the great job he pulled off in getting a 1st for PP back in 02 such that folks seem to think this is the baseline expectation for our FAs.

 

Mope, this case has some rare circumstances (in particular AT owner Arthur Blanks shooting his mouth off in essence guaranteeing to his fans and most important to Michael Vick that he was going to acquire the top available WR (namely PP) and once that was done the deal was set,

 

I think that the Bills could see that there was no way they would be willing to pay the likely top 5 salary average for Clements if they were to tag him this year and that the Bills gave up little in agreeing to foster peace this year with NC in exchange for promising not to do something it made little sense for us to do anyway.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

When I look to actually improving our output so that we get the production we want, I do not think this likely only will occur if we get better talent, but in fact I think the best way to improve this is for Fairchild to do a better job running the O. The primary problem I see with PP is that he was miscast and miaused as a possession WR as this is far from the highest and best use of his talents.

If I'm understanding your point correctly here, you're not happy with Price being used as a possession reciever, and maybe believe he should have been used more as a downfield threat. I think a problem with this is that Evans' bread and butter is the long ball. With Evans making plays 30-40 (or sometimes 83) yards downfield and certainly drawing the attention of defenses this upcoming year, the best thing we can get from our #2 would be a big, reliable target that Losman can easily find on 3rd downs. Someone with a natural ability to get open on short and intermediate routes, which I think is one of Price's biggest shortcomings...he just doesn't get open enough.

 

My basic point is that with Lee Evans, a consistent playmaker on one side, its really inevitable that our Offensive Coordinator is going to use our other reciever as a possession reciever. If we had a #2 WR with the ability to take advantage of all the attention Evans is sure to get from defenses this year, it would dramatically improve our overall passing game, and our 3rd down percentage (which was a problem this year). At some point, we need to examine our recievers because a #2 with more of a presence could take this offense to another level. Seeing as we do have other needs, however, this offseason (may or) may not be the time.

 

I've made a couple of lengthy posts in other threads about why I think we can go best player available early in the draft so I won't get into that now. But I do believe Dwayne Jarrett is a player who should at least be on our radar if the top players on our draft board aren't around when we pick. And if we end up trading down, I think Robert Meachem from Tennessee and Dwayne Bowe of LSU (who may be around in the 2nd round) are two big recievers that would add a new dimension to our offense and alleviate the pressure that Evans will get.

 

Otherwise, I still think Price is somewhat expendable. I believe Josh Reed at least matches his abilties as a possession reciever if he can stay on the field (meanwhile, his injury probably caused a slight inflation in Price's mediocre stats). Price wasn't really used much in the capacity of a downfield threat, as you mentioned, so there wouldn't be much loss in that department. And during the season I was thinking that those WR screen plays that we ran to him should have been going to Roscoe Parrish anyway. Speaking of Roscoe, he had a reception against Jacksonville to set up a game-winning field goal that showed me he can replace Price's "toe work" that you mentioned.

 

In all likelihood, Price stays this year, and its not the end of the world. I just think we should be keeping our eyes open to the WR position because an upgrade could go far in the way of helping Losman, Evans and McGahee play to their fullest.

[Dawgg]

I completely disagree.

 

Either way, the franchise tag represented a critical point of leverage for the Bills. The prospect of being tagged 2 years in a row might bring Clements and his agent to the bargainig table, making them more amenable to a deal, rather than risk an additional year without long-term security. If they could not reach a long-term contract, they could EASILY trade him for a draft choice. You're right, Donahoe spoiled us by aquiring a first rounder for Peerless Price.. but it is most certainly feasible to obtain a 2nd or 3rd from some team for Clements.

 

If so, then simply name all these players out there that were tagged by their teams and then traded to get some compensation.

 

The reason why you won't find many examples of this is because more often than not, the FRANCHISE TAG IS USED TO RETAIN PLAYERS! Orlando Pace could have been traded by the Rams, but they had every intention of keeping him.

 

Walter Jones could have been traded by the Seahawks, but they had every intention of keeping him.

 

Oakland tagged Charles Woodson and tried to trade him, but he was an overrated corner and everyone outside of Oakland knew it.

 

If New England put Asante Samuel on the block, you better believe some team would have traded for him.

 

I think that the Bills could see that there was no way they would be willing to pay the likely top 5 salary average for Clements if they were to tag him this year and that the Bills gave up little in agreeing to foster peace this year with NC in exchange for promising not to do something it made little sense for us to do anyway.

 

Gave up little? Are you serious??? The opportunity cost was enormous.

 

Dre Bly garnered significant compensation in the trade market... just imagine what Nate Clements would generated -- easilly a first day pick. Alas, we will never know, due to an egregious error on the part of Bills management.

[Dawgg]

If they had no intention of retaining Clements, you STILL franchise him.

 

The Lions got a ton of talent in exchange for Dre Bly, who is a #2 corner on most days.

 

Imagine what the Bills could get for Nate Clements! People keep justifying this as though we had to make a choice, when in actuality, the Bills could have had their cake and eaten it too...

 

With the money it costs to franchise Clements counting against the cap this year, I doubt Derrick Dockery would be a Bill. Whats more valuable, one year of outstanding cornerback play, or seven years of a running game?

[Bill from NYC]

If they had no intention of retaining Clements, you STILL franchise him.

 

The Lions got a ton of talent in exchange for Dre Bly, who is a #2 corner on most days.

 

Imagine what the Bills could get for Nate Clements! People keep justifying this as though we had to make a choice, when in actuality, the Bills could have had their cake and eaten it too...

 

There is zero doubt that this "promise" to Nate cost the Buffalo Bills something, at least an early draft pick. That said, the draft is coming, and there is certainly a chance to improve the defense.

 

I welcome you to laugh at me down the road, but I think that the Bills will be a stronger team in 07. We have what looks to be a monster left side of the OL, and kids (Pennington, Merz, Butler) that have a year experience and at least might be good.

 

I was as frustrated as you by this promise, but I must make clear that Marv surprised me. At his press conference he talked about the OL, and in free agency, he put Ralph's money where he mouth was. I can only praise the guy for this.

 

Thinking even more about it, what if the 22 million for Nate went to extending JP or Evans? Honestly, I would take either (especially Evans) over Clements.

 

Since Marv came back, I have not been his biggest supporter; not even close. The free agent signings have changed my outlook. The OG position needed to be addressed a long time ago. Marv went out there and pulled the trigger. If Dockery is even almost as good as his salary, the Bills will be an improved football team, or so I think.