Do the Bills now have the worst defense in NFL?

[GG]

We really have to hope that improvements come from external or intangible factors, which is your point about the vacuum. That is the truth. But we can discuss now what we do know, and we've seen first hand the effect of losing key personnel has had on the Bills. The offensive meltdown after trading Peerless Price and letting go of vets Riemersma and Centers was HUGE. Losing Pat Williams caused a terrible ripple effect to the entire Bills defense that caused their performance to drop from excellent to awful. We've seen it, and we could well be seeing it again. Consider this, what happens if this defense goes out and puts up the same kind of performance against the run and pass, but doesn't take the ball away? How many games do the Bills win without winning the turnover ratio?

 

As far as the money goes, I was actually being conservative, because reportedlly the guaranteed money for Dockery and Walker exceeds that which Clements received.

 

All the machinations you've gone through in this thread is to explain away a poorly worded initial post. Nowhere in there did I find the criticism of retaining Kelsay over keeping Clements or LBF. You could make an argument that Bills would probably have more talent with a Dockery/Clements & Aisle 8 DE free agent than Dockery/Kelsay/Walker, plus Aisle 8 CB free agent. However, I'll take the word of Dick Jauron & his personnel requests over Jerry Gray's (if we're comparing letting NC go vs Pat Williams). Unless you have a Deion Sanders on the squad, teams usually fared better when they lost a marquee DB than a marquee DL.

[Scraps]

All the machinations you've gone through in this thread is to explain away a poorly worded initial post. Nowhere in there did I find the criticism of retaining Kelsay over keeping Clements or LBF. You could make an argument that Bills would probably have more talent with a Dockery/Clements & Aisle 8 DE free agent than Dockery/Kelsay/Walker, plus Aisle 8 CB free agent. However, I'll take the word of Dick Jauron & his personnel requests over Jerry Gray's (if we're comparing letting NC go vs Pat Williams). Unless you have a Deion Sanders on the squad, teams usually fared better when they lost a marquee DB than a marquee DL.

 

That is too funny. In typical styl, you never answered the key question he asked, posted a false choice and tried to shove that question into his mouth, another of your penchants, and then criticize him for "poor wording".

 

BTW, the Bills run defense was better under Jerry Gray than Dick Jauron, but don't let facts stand in the way of your love fest.

[AKC]

I think you are wrong here.

 

This defense does need an outstanding player at MLB.

 

That player has to be able to fill holes on running plays, be able to cover the deep middle of the field on pass plays and be smart enough to know when to do each.

 

Patrick Willis fills this hole just like Whitner filled the SS slot last year.

 

I didn't watch his college career, but while Patrick Willis had a fine stat day in the Senior Bowl by virtue of playing the whole game, I still saw him being being pushed all over the field by guys who won't even qualify to play in the NFL this season. Getting stout against the run isn't normally a phrase included in sentences regarding 230 pound Linebackers. At least on that one day when Willis was suposed to be highlighting his skills, he instead looked to me like a guy who will be engulfed by the size/strength/speed ratio in the NFL.

[GG]

That is too funny. In typical styl, you never answered the key question he asked, posted a false choice and tried to shove that question into his mouth, another of your penchants, and then criticize him for "poor wording".

 

BTW, the Bills run defense was better under Jerry Gray than Dick Jauron, but don't let facts stand in the way of your love fest.

 

Oh, really? How did I mischaracterize his initial post which had ZERO mention of retaining Kelsay and only talked about losing Clements & LBF, where the main point made was that Bills will have the worst D in the league because they have lost 2 players accounting for 8 turnovers.

 

Are you talking about Bills' rush defense under Gray with or without Pat Williams? Is that like saying that Bills pass rush under Ted Cottrell was worse than under Walt Corey? (ps - you may want to check the Bills' run D last year vs Gray's last year here if you really would like to make a point)

[BADOLBILZ]

Here's a little tip for ya, Skippy. Back then, we were doomed. The difference between back then and today is today you can at least see the direction the team is trying to take. Today you can see they're not afraid to second-guess themselves and make changes on the fly to better the team. Today you can see they're not afraid to cut people and bench people who can't make a difference, regardless of who that person may be.

 

Today I have a lot of confidence in this team's staff, and it dawns on me that you have to be one miserable !@#$ to see the team moving in the right direction and start bitching about the work that still needs to be done with six !@#$ing months ahead of you.

 

How's that perpetual bitchin' and whining working out for ya?

 

That's precious. You were at one time an unconditional Donahoe apologist just as you are now with Marv. But now they were ACTUALLY doomed. Way to have both sides covered.

 

You and Darin don't get that this "We're DOOOOMED" , "Oh, I'm going to become a Patriots fan" sarcasm nonsense doesn't work in live discussion. If you started that sh*t with people at the game, they'd change the topic out of consideration to your perceived naivete. I mean really, is that how you discuss things?

 

This game is REAL. It's not a soap opera played out on TV. Those of us that go to the games, see the entire field and see what's actually happening on the sidelines have a different perspective than those of you who get all of their info from Don Criqui. Steve Tasker isn't going to tell you that Bryce Paup's groin is bothering him so badly he can barely get his d*ck out of his pants to piss in the garbage can on the sideline. But Mikey, 8 rows up, will. Then when I come here and say Bryce Paup is still f*cked a year after his injury, I get a bunch of nonsense replies from people like you. Utter nonsense. We're not converting, LA. We're not claiming a curse. We're talking football.

 

I actually wish more of the people who follow what's going on at field level would come here, but they see the CRAP that online douchebags like you and Darin post, they aren't interested. You don't know jack and you offer zero to the conversation. Darin actually thinks it's impossible to offer any insight on TBD, as if the only information that could possibly be true is what.....Marv tells you?

 

If voicing that opinion means I'm miserable......ask the people who come to the games if you're right. I'm quite jovial as a matter of fact.

[Scraps]

Oh, really? How did I mischaracterize his initial post which had ZERO mention of retaining Kelsay and only talked about losing Clements & LBF, where the main point made was that Bills will have the worst D in the league because they have lost 2 players accounting for 8 turnovers.

 

Did you bother to answer the question posed IN THE TITLE OF THE THREAD?

 

How did you come up with this little gem

 

Is this team really better with LFB and NC staying on defense and keeping Villarial & Gandy on offense? Isn't that your argument?

Where did Badol mention Villarial or Gandy? Why is it an either or choice?

 

Are you talking about Bills' rush defense under Gray with or without Pat Williams? Is that like saying that Bills pass rush under Ted Cottrell was worse than under Walt Corey? (ps - you may want to check the Bills' run D last year vs Gray's last year here if you really would like to make a point)

 

I'm talking about the Bills run defense in any year under Gray according to stats provided by ESPN. Fact is that the run defense has gotten worse under this regime. TD/Gray may have sucked but that doesn't mean Levy/DJ can't be bad or worse.

[Coach Tuesday]

The Bills spent more guaranteed money on Walker and Kelsay than the Niners did on Nate. Quite a bit more. If the Dockery and Walker comparison didn't work, maybe that'll help ya'. Then again, maybe not. That's long been the problem discussing football in the offseason, you can't argue against unconditional faith and like Donahoe for several years before him, Marv is still on honeymoon with a lot of you.

 

I'm still unclear as to what your point is, maybe I'm dense, fine, but can you please just answer this question yes or no so I can understand what you're saying:

 

Should the Bills have paid Nate what the 49ers paid him or close to it?

[Lv-Bills]

That's precious. You were at one time an unconditional Donahoe apologist just as you are now with Marv. But now they were ACTUALLY doomed. Way to have both sides covered.

 

You and Darin don't get that this "We're DOOOOMED" , "Oh, I'm going to become a Patriots fan" sarcasm nonsense doesn't work in live discussion. If you started that sh*t with people at the game, they'd change the topic out of consideration to your perceived naivete. I mean really, is that how you discuss things?

 

This game is REAL. It's not a soap opera played out on TV. Those of us that go to the games, see the entire field and see what's actually happening on the sidelines have a different perspective than those of you who get all of their info from Don Criqui. Steve Tasker isn't going to tell you that Bryce Paup's groin is bothering him so badly he can barely get his d*ck out of his pants to piss in the garbage can on the sideline. But Mikey, 8 rows up, will. Then when I come here and say Bryce Paup is still f*cked a year after his injury, I get a bunch of nonsense replies from people like you. Utter nonsense. We're not converting, LA. We're not claiming a curse. We're talking football.

 

I actually wish more of the people who follow what's going on at field level would come here, but they see the CRAP that online douchebags like you and Darin post, they aren't interested. You don't know jack and you offer zero to the conversation. Darin actually thinks it's impossible to offer any insight on TBD, as if the only information that could possibly be true is what.....Marv tells you?

 

If voicing that opinion means I'm miserable......ask the people who come to the games if you're right. I'm quite jovial as a matter of fact.

BRAVO....................best post of the year by far. All too true. It's so hard to actually talk like this because the cutsie DOOOOOOOOMED people got too sickening to keep discussing football.

 

When the board turned to more of a "Live at the Improv" board instead of football is when alot of people stopped discussing football. Especially critical football analysis. The board is still great, but you've hit the nail on the head with the people you've mentioned.

 

Maybe if everyone turns their head like they do every season, the problem will eventually go away.

 

Go Bills! Go Marv. Now, go build that defense to where it needs to be. I'll see you actually AT the games this year. If I do, I'll buy you one for all of this nonsense you've taken in this post.

 

Bravo Bado, you da man!!!

[Ray]

Did I miss the first couple games and did we lose by 40 points? I must have missed the draft, the rest of free agency and all of the training camp cuts as well! Man do we stink---what were your words? The worst in the NFL.

[Sketch Soland]

The Bills defense was very bad prior to the bye week changes. Now the key player in that change(Clements) is gone, and the steady, consistent, durable MLB is gone as well. I'm not a big fan of Fletcher, he can't stack and shed so his defenses will always be vulnerable to the run at his position, but he and Clements were the guys who came away with the turnovers. That's kinda' important.

 

There are really no solutions in FA. The draft........well let's just say we aren't going to replace that production next season from the draft. The next time that happens will be the first. And that is to get back to last year's level. Which wasn't good enough. Not to throw a wet blanket on the acquisition of a good guard and some JAGs but, how is this progress? Have the Bills gone from being one of the worst run defenses to being the worst defense?

 

It's March 4th. The regular season starts tomorrow.

 

OH SHEET WE'RE PHUCKED!!!!!!!!

 

*YAWN*

[Lv-Bills]

It's March 4th. The regular season starts tomorrow.

 

OH SHEET WE'RE PHUCKED!!!!!!!!

 

*YAWN*

Care to give an analysis of the last 7 or so years that has made some posters a little skeptical about losing guys and not adding any back? Or, are you just part of the DOOOOMED crowd too?

 

The real chicken littles seem to be the one's who can't take on reality head on. Turn your head, that'll make things better in a hurry.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'm still unclear as to what your point is, maybe I'm dense, fine, but can you please just answer this question yes or no so I can understand what you're saying:

 

Should the Bills have paid Nate what the 49ers paid him or close to it?

 

Absolutely. That's the cost of doing business, and he was the Bills best defensive player and the focal point of Fewell's hybrid cover 2. When the Bills inked Eric Moulds long term, his deal was worth on average about 10% of that seasons projected salary cap limit. Nate got $10M per with the cap at $109M.

 

I mentioned this in an earlier thread: What is the cost of winning and losing? I think it's A LOT. Especially 7 years into rebuilding mode.

 

A lot has been mentioned about how locking Clements on the oppositions #1 WR helped change the fortunes of the Bills then PUTRID defense, but few people cite ACTUAL tangible results. If Clements doesn't break up Favre's ill advised goal line pass in the GB game Ko Simpson never comes up with the easy pic and the Bills LOSE. When Dick Jauron punted the ball away to Houston with under 3:00 left and needing a TD to win, the Bills never see the ball again if Clements doesn't make a great third down breakup on a pass to Andre Johnson, a series of events that lead to JP Losman's breakout moment. If Clements doesn't get that fumble in Indy, are the Bills able to hang with Indy despite virtually no offense? He was AWESOME against Marvin that day. Those are just a few obvious instances, but they are games that all lead to the perception that this is a team on the rise.

[Acantha]

Care to give an analysis of the last 7 or so years that has made some posters a little skeptical about losing guys and not adding any back? Or, are you just part of the DOOOOMED crowd too?

 

The real chicken littles seem to be the one's who can't take on reality head on. Turn your head, that'll make things better in a hurry.

Lost players and didn't add any back??? Do you have any idea why the sarcastic posts keep coming your way about it being March? We have lost two important players. We have also upgraded two important positions. So right now, I'd say we are about even as far as who we have lost and gained as a team. And as far as the two we lost, we still have 4 months to find replacements. There will be more FA's brought in. There is still a draft coming up.

 

And as I've said before, stop acting like this front office is the same as the last two we have had. It just doesn't make sense. What players did we lose last year that we didn't replace that screwed the Bills? You're talking about Adams? Other posts have covered him. How about Vincent and Moulds? How are they doing right now? Milloy? Replaced.

 

Talking about the last 7 years is pointless. Talk about last year. Talk about this year. Talk about where the team is headed in the next few years. Stop living in the past with your bitter perceptions of GM's and coaches that aren't even here anymore.

[Coach Tuesday]

Absolutely. That's the cost of doing business, and he was the Bills best defensive player and the focal point of Fewell's hybrid cover 2. When the Bills inked Eric Moulds long term, his deal was worth on average about 10% of that seasons projected salary cap limit. Nate got $10M per with the cap at $109M.

 

I mentioned this in an earlier thread: What is the cost of winning and losing? I think it's A LOT. Especially 7 years into rebuilding mode.

 

A lot has been mentioned about how locking Clements on the oppositions #1 WR helped change the fortunes of the Bills then PUTRID defense, but few people cite ACTUAL tangible results. If Clements doesn't break up Favre's ill advised goal line pass in the GB game Ko Simpson never comes up with the easy pic and the Bills LOSE. When Dick Jauron punted the ball away to Houston with under 3:00 left and needing a TD to win, the Bills never see the ball again if Clements doesn't make a great third down breakup on a pass to Andre Johnson, a series of events that lead to JP Losman's breakout moment. If Clements doesn't get that fumble in Indy, are the Bills able to hang with Indy despite virtually no offense? He was AWESOME against Marvin that day. Those are just a few obvious instances, but they are games that all lead to the perception that this is a team on the rise.

 

Ok, thanks, now I understand what you're arguing. I disagree. While I agree that "this is a team on the rise," and I agree with your general premise that the team needs to lockup its young talent long-term, I don't agree that handing Nate Clements $80 million is a step in the right direction. I don't put Clements in the top-5 cover CBs in the League (Bailey, Samuel, PacMan, Asomugha, McAllister, Baxter?). I would agree with you that they should've paid Pat Williams whatever it would have taken to keep him. I don't think Moulds' contract was justified at the time. I do think the Bills should quickly extend Lee Evans to slightly below what Andre Johnson just got, and begin negotiations with Losman too. I don't think these opinions make me a "Marv Aplogist" and I wish that the back-and-forth about that would cease.

[ThreeBillsDrive]

Who will our dominant defensive players next season? Takeo was supposed to me that man when we got him from the Bengals. Nate was dominant during the 2nd half of the season last year.

[BADOLBILZ]

Care to give an analysis of the last 7 or so years that has made some posters a little skeptical about losing guys and not adding any back? Or, are you just part of the DOOOOMED crowd too?

 

The real chicken littles seem to be the one's who can't take on reality head on. Turn your head, that'll make things better in a hurry.

 

It might be the time for another forum for people interested in discussing football. We've got a dozen different boards and none of them are actually about discussing personnel, coaching, etc.. I really don't know what posesses a person to reply with something like "wait until the games are over before you discuss them" from even being here? A pure football board, moderated to eliminate the type of teenage clique crap you get from the "doomed" peanut gallery would be a very popular viewing place and bring in a lot more viewing traffic.

 

If you don't want your delicate sensibilities offended by speculation, then don't read it. Go to TSW, read the articles and log out.

[Acantha]

It might be the time for another forum for people interested in discussing football. We've got a dozen different boards and none of them are actually about discussing personnel, coaching, etc.. I really don't know what posesses a person to reply with something like "wait until the games are over before you discuss them" from even being here? A pure football board, moderated to eliminate the type of teenage clique crap you get from the "doomed" peanut gallery would be a very popular viewing place and bring in a lot more viewing traffic.

 

If you don't want your delicate sensibilities offended by speculation, then don't read it. Go to TSW, read the articles and log out.

So the sarcasm is okay as long as it's on the side of an argument you agree with?

[Coach Tuesday]

So the sarcasm is okay as long as it's on the side of an argument you agree with?

 

I thought it WAS on the side of BADOL's argument. I'm having a damned hard time figuring out who is arguing what, and with whom, on this thread. I understand now that BADOL says we should've signed Nate. I disagree, as do others. That is a football discussion. Yet, sadly, 75% of this thread consists of:

 

"It's only March 4, you have no right to post your opinion that the Bills have neglected their defense. We're DOOOOOMED HAHAHA."

 

"Shut up you unfunny Marv apologist."

[BADOLBILZ]

So the sarcasm is okay as long as it's on the side of an argument you agree with?

 

Nothing wrong with sarcasm, but when that's all you bring to the argument, it doesn't work. That's not discussion. Simply being contrary is not an argument and there is way too much of that around here.

 

We've had people who used to come to our tailgates who no longer do because of people here who harrass the sh*t out of them. Not people who actually come to the games, but jerkoffs who badgered them so badly that they don't want anything to do with TBD. They just get soured on the whole "doomed" crowd, and we get lumped in. My guideline is simple, if you wouldn't say that sh*t to my face, then you shouldn't say it here. And that's not just the tough talk nonsense, but the whole indignity at speculation "we're doomed" crap.

 

It does NOT work in live discussion, and it's really the equivalent of going to a star trek website and telling the geeks to get a life. We're supposed to be here to DISCUSS this stuff. The "doomed crowd" thinks this is a forum to show how cool and above it all they are.

[Rockinon]

Wow.......there's an awful lot of tension here. I can't believe I just read this whole thread. Honestly, I havn't heard much "REAL" football talk throughout. Why all the pent-up emotion? As for the title of this thread.....this is just asking for it. Just my opinion.