Levy Love

[BillnutinHouston]

OK, let me say from the outset that I did not think Marv was necessarily a good choice to run this team. Sure, the teams he coached (filled with Pro Bowlers and HOF'ers) went to the SB 4 times. But I never knew Marv to have a big role in selecting those players, so I wondered how his coaching career qualified him to be a GM? Around the NFL, coaching is not generally known to be a training ground for GM's (which tells me something). In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any GM's who were coaches earlier in their careers - can you?

 

Presently, Marv is essentially untouchable in Buffalo, that much is clear. In Buffalo, if you have a bad word for Marv (whether he deserves it or not) you are perceived to be disrespecting the Bills teams of the 90's - kind of like being the NFL's version of a flag burner. Yet as the losses pile up, the blame game will inevitably start and everyone (yes, maybe even Marv someday) will be subject to criticism.

 

I fully expect that Marv will be given a pass this year. Folks will say that he simply inherited Donahoe's team and that all he could do was tinker at the margins. This is despite the fact that he left about $7 million in unspent cap money on the table - not that we have any needs or anything. Not sure why fans who are so desperate for wins routinely ignore this fact....oh wait, yes I do know, it's the premise behind this post.

 

Anyway, on to the main point of discussion - let's say our string of 4-5 win seasons continues for another 5-6 years. At what point (if any) would you hold Marv accountable for the fortunes of this team?

[Bill from NYC]

  At what point (if any) would you hold Marv accountable for the fortunes of this team?

820844[/snapback]

 

I think that Levy will (and even should) get a pass on JP if he fails to develop. Marv was not the one who traded away the picks. Imo, the 06 class of free agents was pretty weak (other than Hutchinson). Also, Marv cannot force RW to spend money, so I have trouble blaming the leftover cap space on him either.

 

That said, I think that Marv is already "on the clock" in terms of accountability. Many disagree and that is fine, but I think that the draft was a disgrace. Is Marv capable of bringing in what the Bills need to win on draft day? I think we will all have a better idea in April.

 

Also, let's face facts. The entire situation is odd. Remember when Mr. Wilson stated that he wants to become "more involved?" I am not getting any younger, but I honestly don't know if men this old can compete in this environment. I am NOT saying that they can't; I truly don't know.

 

I do however agree with what I think to be the premise of your post. Marv is a fan favorite and is virtually "untouchable" in terms of criticism. It makes sense because he did some good things for us, and seems like a very nice guy.

Will it add up to wins? Your guess is as good as mine.

[clayboy54]

One thing to remember when forming opinions on who is accountable is that in any big corporate environment, no one person is pulling all the strings or making all the decisions. When Ralph says he is more involved, there is no need to assume he means that he is wanting to run the whole show. It means that he likely wants veto power over decisions made by others.

 

The Bills, and every other NFL team, have dozens of people doing the research, passing judgements, managing personnel assets and keeping lists of lists of lists. Marv Levy is known to be great as a manager that can take all these various opinions and work with the individuals to reach a consensus decision. That is what a good manager does in any business.

 

How good are our people that bring him the information? The scouts, the personnel people, the contract negotiators, the coaches, the pencil pushers... they all have input. It must be said that in order to maintain the longevity of the Bills tenure in Buffalo, the organization must be pretty good. Therefore we all assume that the sum total of wins and losses should be better. That may not be the case.

 

An organization tailored to keep the Bills profitable in Buffalo may not be able to put a consistently competitive product on the field. In my opinion, that is the issue that has plagued the Bills since 1960. But, they're still the BUFFALO bills, which IMO is much better than the Super Bowl winning LA Bills.

[apuszczalowski]

First of all, He coached a team of Pro Bowlers and HOFers to 4 straight SB's, but how many were future HOFers and Probowlers until that run? Before the 4 SB's, how many people would have put Kelly, or Smith, or Thomas, or Reed as future HOFer's? Winning and making the SB is what makes players Pro Bowlers and HOFer's

 

This is Marvs first Season as GM and he has not even had a chance to finish it and people are already starting to complain about him and arte getting their torches and pitchforks ready. Give the guy a couple years to build this team, he isn't going to turn them from a lower teir team to a SB winner in one offseason. He cam in and started cleaning house, you can't expect them to build a winner in the first year with all new coaches and management. So far what Marv has done is started to build a base (or foundation to build off of)

 

His plan seems to be to build a young team of guys willing to play hard and give 110% so that they will be competitve for years instead of just a year or 2. This offseason was focused on the defence, because as most will say, the defence is what wins championships. The defence the coach and his co-ordinators chose to use and are most familiar with is the Tampa cover 2 which requires good Safeties and CB's, so Marv found some good ones in the draft, and drafted two d-linemen (McCargo and Williams).

 

For the offence he went with some vets to try to shore up the o-line for the season with Reyes and Fowler. Fowler has played well (definitly better then his predecessor) and Reyes has played average (pretty much what you would expect if a rookie was in that spot) and has been injured so its hard to tell if maybe an injury has kept him from playing better. He also used draft picks for 2 o-linemen in Pennigton and Merz. Who are now starting to get intergrated into the starting rotation. If you look at the reshuffling they have done, the Bills could be set for a starting o-line next season if it works (giving them the luxury of brining in a draft pick or 2 for depth or as an upgrade) If Pennington plays like the coaches believe he can and can hold down the right side while Peters proves he is the best linemen on the team and holds down the left side the bills are set at Tackle. Villareal will probably be replace next year (due to age and declining play) and hopefully Gandy play improves at guard so between him and Reyes we have that guard position held down. Fowler can hold down the centre position and we still have Merz and Preston for depth.

 

If they can prove to be a decent line for the rest of the season, there is only really one spot on the o-line we are looking for in the draft (a guard to replace Villareal) and any other linemen will be gravy (and provide depth) The D-line will probably be focused on more if the o-line works out like I mentioned above and some players will probably be drafted to help shore up the run defence.

 

It is going to take more then one offseason to correct all the problems the team has and I don't think any criticism can be made until atleast year 3 if no signs of improvement is shown and the team is not heading in the right direction. That is when changes will need to be made to the coaching staff and management.

 

As for Bills comment of this draft being a disgrace, I don't see how it could be. Our #1 pick is already a starter (and a pretty good one), the second #1 pick (a linemen) was playing in everygame, one of the later picks was also starting, a couple of other late picks are being moved into the stating rotation. This is turning out to be a very good draft class for the Bills. If you want to refer to a draft that was a disgrace, it would have to be the 2002 draft with everyones favorite #4 pick Mike Williams. That was a horrible draft, this one was too early to tell (although in your opinion it would be refered to as a disgrace only because it wasn't all linemen on day one)

 

And as for the usual comments of Marv and Ralph being too old, yes its true they are old. Ralph especially seems to have his age starting to catch up to him, but he still has some gas left in the tank. Marv on the other hand is in better shape (physically and Mentally) then the majority of the posters here.

 

As for the Cap money left over, what were they supposed to do? Spend it just for the sake of sending it? The put together the team they wanted and happened to have money left over, not everyteam is going to spend to the cap, and it isn't going to guarantee more wins or a better team. Where would you have spent the extra money (who would you have spent the money on that would have changed the team this season?)

[1billsfan]

OK, let me say from the outset that I did not think Marv was necessarily a good choice to run this team.  Sure, the teams he coached (filled with Pro Bowlers and HOF'ers) went to the SB 4 times.  But I never knew Marv to have a big role in selecting those players, so I wondered how his coaching career qualified him to be a GM?  Around the NFL, coaching is not generally known to be a training ground for GM's (which tells me something).  In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any GM's who were coaches earlier in their careers - can you?

 

Presently, Marv is essentially untouchable in Buffalo, that much is clear.  In Buffalo, if you have a bad word for Marv (whether he deserves it or not) you are perceived to be disrespecting the Bills teams of the 90's - kind of like being the NFL's version of a flag burner.  Yet as the losses pile up, the blame game will inevitably start and everyone (yes, maybe even Marv someday) will be subject to criticism.

 

I fully expect that Marv will be given a pass this year.  Folks will say that he simply inherited Donahoe's team and that all he could do was tinker at the margins.  This is despite the fact that he left about $7 million in unspent cap money on the table - not that we have any needs or anything.  Not sure why fans who are so desperate for wins routinely ignore this fact....oh wait, yes I do know, it's the premise behind this post.

 

Anyway, on to the main point of discussion - let's say our string of 4-5 win seasons continues for another 5-6 years.  At what point (if any) would you hold Marv accountable for the fortunes of this team?

820844[/snapback]

 

I don't think it's one guy calling the shots anymore like it was in the Tom Donahoe regime. From what I've read and heard it sounds like the Bills front office is more of a democracy. Meaning Marv, Tom M. and Dick Jaroun are putting their collective heads together on key personnel decisions. I'm sure Ralph has his say as well after the TD fiasco.

[Pirate Angel]

He hasnt even had a full year to try and fix 5+ years of bad management, It takes 3 years to judge a draft,his picks already have shown some promise

[Tcali]

OK, let me say from the outset that I did not think Marv was necessarily a good choice to run this team.  Sure, the teams he coached (filled with Pro Bowlers and HOF'ers) went to the SB 4 times.  But I never knew Marv to have a big role in selecting those players, so I wondered how his coaching career qualified him to be a GM?  Around the NFL, coaching is not generally known to be a training ground for GM's (which tells me something).  In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any GM's who were coaches earlier in their careers - can you?

 

Presently, Marv is essentially untouchable in Buffalo, that much is clear.  In Buffalo, if you have a bad word for Marv (whether he deserves it or not) you are perceived to be disrespecting the Bills teams of the 90's - kind of like being the NFL's version of a flag burner.  Yet as the losses pile up, the blame game will inevitably start and everyone (yes, maybe even Marv someday) will be subject to criticism.

 

I fully expect that Marv will be given a pass this year.  Folks will say that he simply inherited Donahoe's team and that all he could do was tinker at the margins.  This is despite the fact that he left about $7 million in unspent cap money on the table - not that we have any needs or anything.  Not sure why fans who are so desperate for wins routinely ignore this fact....oh wait, yes I do know, it's the premise behind this post.

 

Anyway, on to the main point of discussion - let's say our string of 4-5 win seasons continues for another 5-6 years.  At what point (if any) would you hold Marv accountable for the fortunes of this team?

820844[/snapback]

Marv has one more under .500 year (as long as we show some improvement in'07) before he deserves serious heat. We gotta be a competitive team by '08.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Again, the Pats were 8-8 in Carroll's last season and 5-11 in Belichick's first season.

[Scraps]

Anyway, on to the main point of discussion - let's say our string of 4-5 win seasons continues for another 5-6 years.  At what point (if any) would you hold Marv accountable for the fortunes of this team?

820844[/snapback]

 

I started judging him from day 1. I've been on record as saying that I'm not impressed with his choice of Head Coach, handling of free agency or the draft.

[mead107]

I started judging him from day 1.  I've been on record as saying that I'm not impressed with his choice of Head Coach, handling of free agency or the draft.

821436[/snapback]

7 games into a season and you are sure that the head coach is a bust .

[Scraps]

7 games into a season and you are sure that the head coach is a bust .

821439[/snapback]

 

He hasn't been all that impressive in his previous stints. He seems to be a slave to a system instead of fitting the system to the players. Many people who were arguing with me before are now complaining that the coaches are not fitting the systems to the players. I'm am highly skeptical of a light weight defensive line. I think it will have a hard time stopping the run. The proof is in the pudding. Its up to Marv to make me eat crow.

[Bill from NYC]

7 games into a season and you are sure that the head coach is a bust .

821439[/snapback]

 

I know you didn't ask me the question, but I will respond anyway.

 

There are things I like about Jauron. He IS a very smart man, and I think he will be able to teach his players.

 

My fear is (not making a statement mind you) that he got his job by the Ivy League buddy system, buying into Marv's long time losing draft method of going after defensive backs early on, and addressing the far more important positions as something of an afterthought.

 

The Bills started their losing ways at precisely the same time they started to focus primarily on corners, only to let them walk as UFAs. This year, we used the #8, a 4th, and signed a UFA at the safety position alone. Then of course we took a 3rd round corner.

 

The thing is, I too desperately want to be proven wrong. Given strong lines, I think that Jauron is prepared enough as a coach to win a lot of football games. He has already done so.

 

I would like to throw out a question to all of those who are enthusiastic about Levy.....Are you guys going to think that it is OK to go after a first round corner in 07 with what appears will be an early pick?

[DeLuca1967]

7 games into a season and you are sure that the head coach is a bust .

821439[/snapback]

 

How about after 93 games? 38-55 for a .409 winning percentage.

[bschmoove]

Marv has three years just like any GM to make a substantial change to the team. If he doesn't get us to the playoffs by then or show us he has made the moves to do so ... get someone else.

[DeLuca1967]

Marv has three years just like any GM to make a substantial change to the team. If he doesn't get us to the playoffs by then or show us he has made the moves to do so ... get someone else.

821481[/snapback]

 

Marv may not even have three years of breath let alone being GM of the Bills.

[Bflojohn]

I think in a very odd way, Marv MAY profit from Tom Donahoes' penchant for making the "splashy" picks in April. It is possible that Levy inherited a skill position squad that, with the proper tweeks, can become an offensive "show" under the likes of Steve Fairchild. Conversely, the "D" was the element that Marv and his crew targeted first and foremost due to the lack of playmakers ( Example, 3rd down efficiency!) so he set out to increase the likelihood (down the line- a year or 2) that this team would be somewhat like what the Chicago Bears are NOW!! Look at the blueprint people.... St. Louis Rams and the Chicago Bears! Fairchild and Fewell are being directed to install the version that the Bills will run that essentially takes both sides of the ball into exciting realms, IMO! The execution of the plan is in its early stages, but I think I see the overall scheme and I LIKE IT! Good thinks come to those who wait... tough concept for starving football fans, but a recipe for success nontheless!

[Dante]

 

That said, I think that Marv is already "on the clock"

 

820849[/snapback]

Aint that the sad truth. I hope we can achieve a .500 record before the old guy passes on.

[BillnutinHouston]

One thing to remember when forming opinions on who is accountable is that in any big corporate environment, no one person is pulling all the strings or making all the decisions. 

 

The Bills, and every other NFL team, have dozens of people doing the research, passing judgements, managing personnel assets and keeping lists of lists of lists. 

 

How good are our people that bring him the information?  The scouts, the personnel people, the contract negotiators, the coaches, the pencil pushers... they all have input. 

 

An organization tailored to keep the Bills profitable in Buffalo may not be able to put a consistently competitive product on the field. 

821029[/snapback]

 

Wow. And George Bush leads a million person government so he shouldn't be accountable for the final results? Although TD clearly had a more autocratic style than Marv does, it is fascinating to see that some are already constructing "plausible deniability" for Marv and diffusing accountability and responsibility away from him. This, in my opinion, is a classic example of the syndrome I call "Levy Love".

 

If folks don't want to hold Marv accountable for failing to spend up to the cap, then they have to accept the fact that he is weaker than TD was vis a vis Ralph, which cannot under any circumstances be considered a good thing for the future of our team.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I know you didn't ask me the question, but I will respond anyway. 

 

There are things I like about Jauron. He IS a very smart man, and I think he will be able to teach his players.

 

My fear is (not making a statement mind you) that he got his job by the Ivy League buddy system, buying into Marv's long time losing draft method of going after defensive backs early on, and addressing the far more important positions as something of an afterthought.

 

The Bills started their losing ways at precisely the same time they started to focus primarily on corners, only to let them walk as UFAs. This year, we used the #8, a 4th, and signed a UFA at the safety position alone. Then of course we took a 3rd round corner.

 

The thing is, I too desperately want to be proven wrong. Given strong lines, I think that Jauron is prepared enough as a coach to win a lot of football games. He has already done so.

 

I would like to throw out a question to all of those who are enthusiastic about Levy.....Are you guys going to think that it is OK to go after a first round corner in 07 with what appears will be an early pick?

821472[/snapback]

Bill, were you around as a Bills fan in 1986-87 (I wasn't sure if it was pre-your conversion from being a Jets fan)? Were fan feelings about the team at all similar to the way they are now? Did Kelly get the "pass" some feel we're giving JP? Obviously it doesn't appear that we have the talent on our hands that we had in 86 (e.g., no Bruce, no Kent Hull).

 

But I'm just curious, if during Marv's first go around if people were this impatient. My guess would be no, but I have to admit to being too young at the time to really know. Insight from Lori and the many other respected ones on this board would be interesting.

[pkwwjd]

In '86, we were coming off of 2-14, 2-14, 4-12 seasons. Not many cared about the Bills. Kelly came into camp after two years in the minors (USFL) where he honed his ability to run an offense. His first two years in the NFL, his passer rating (though not the perfect measure of QBing, it is the best we have) was 83-84 both years. Nothing great. In '88, his first year with Thermal (which should have helped) his rating dropped to 78.2. '89 his rating increased to 86.2 -- a level that we would now be more or less satisfied with. His fifth NFL season the rating jumped to 101+. That was his 7th season of starting in a professional setting. It takes time to develop team identity, team play. Even extremely talented players take years to jell (gel?) as a team. Give Marv a chance to develop that team.

 

I don't remember anyone who cared about the Bills calling for Marv's head early on in his career. The only head we called for was Kelly's. Course that was only after those games where it looked like he was playing drunk ...