Schulman16 Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I think the thing we need to keep in mind is that Marv said this is a rebuilding year. 736269[/snapback] This isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Yes, that's my instinct as well, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's a given that JP will start. I beileve he's better suited for this new offense that seems to be predicated on airing it out deep. I don't think holcomb's vulnerability is his weak arm. If his arm strength was so bad, he wouldn't even be considered a starting candidate at all. His major "flaw" in my eyes, is his cautious decision making. There is a time and a place to dink and dunk and play it safe, but there's also a time to take chances, and he seems far too hesitant. However, with that said, he's probably viewed as the "steadier" of the two QB's at this point, and because of this fact alone, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he began the year as the starter. 736265[/snapback] IMO, he checks off simply because he can't make the throws. He knows his arm strength. He's a smart quarterback. He makes the throws that he thinks he can, just the way Nall or Losman or any quarterback makes the decisions/throws that he thinks he can. He checks down fast because he can't throw quick darts between recievers and defenders, not because he is inherently cautious. yes, he is the steadier quarterback at this time. It is possible, although I doubt it more and more, that he gives the team an ever so slightly better chance to win game one. But Jauron and Marv are not dumb. They know the team can only go so far with KH. They know the best thing to happen for either of their careers is for Losman to be the starting quarterback and play well. And I am convinced that with the coordinator they hired, the receivers they signed, the linemen they signed, and the offense they will run, Losman is going to be given a chance to run this team for the first half of this season. They simply want him to earn the job and fight for it in front of his teammates because of the problems his annointment caused last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTS Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 Anyone here that believes it is JP is delusional. 736129[/snapback] Bottomline is anyone that thinks we'll be any good with any of these QBs is delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrite Gal Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 You're failing to take into account the fact that opposing defenses have already learned that Holcomb doesn't have the arm to beat them deep. Thus they will crowd the line to easily put a halt to our running game. KH will not be more productive in this offense because of his arm. 736229[/snapback] Holcomb shows no sign of being able to beat opposing Ds by consistently throwing long passes with accuracy. i do not think he has the arm to do this consistently at all. However, KH dpes have a history of being episodically very productive as a QB. Just as I do not know his 40 time I do not know how many yards KH can actually throw the ball. However, though KH does not have the rep of being a Bledsoe like slinger, he also does not carry the rep nor have I seen signs of him throwing Billy Kilmer like wounded ducks or even looking as weak a thrower as Flutie looked at the end of a season. What KH needs to do in the O we seem to be developing is offer the threat that 2 or 3 times a game he will be able to muster up a deep pass to a speedy receiver. If this threat is there, then opposing Ds wiil crowd the line at their own risk, because this might be the one play where Evans, Price, or Parrish uses their speed to go on a fly pAtterns and the D crowding the line gives up 7 they do not want to give up in the NFL. There are several other things the Bills appear to be doing which may help a rag-armed QB- 1. McGahee is running semi-deep pass patterns in practice and the word he wil be used more as a receiver this year. If WM develops his ability to operate as a successful check down receiver, particularly if he can generate RAC yardage then either shooting the gap to blitz or crowding the line becomes problematic. In addition, I think the Bills need to go back to what TC went away from which is sending WM wide to use the stiff arm. If the tackles do good seal blocks to cut off inside pursuit and receivers run pattens to clear out the outside, the WM ends up isolated with a DB he migh kill with the stiff arm. Rather than the LB crowding the line he will need to stay back so he does not get sealed and can take an angle on WM. 2. Speed kills. Speedy WRs will demand a cushion and in 3 WR sets with Parrish and potentially 4 WR sets with Reed the only real D option will be to zone up. Again croding the line is not an option. 3. My guess is that the QB will salivate in cases where the line is crowded and it means that one of the WRs is single covered. in this situation with safeties crowding the line there is no one back in a cover 2 to catch a wounded duck pass. In this case, the QB will need to make the read and call for the single covered WR to fly, The QB takes three step drop and immediately throws the ball up and the reciever's job is to run underneath it. I think the zone blitz where the QB does not know for sure who is dropping back and who is coming is a much bigger problem than a D which crowds the line and all of the defenders are holding their ground or blitzing. Crowding the line woul seem to be one of the easier Ds to beat even if Holcomb was a constant rag arm. I do not think he has a Bledsoe arm, but the good news is he does not appear to have a Bledsoe brain either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schulman16 Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 IMO, he checks off simply because he can't make the throws. He knows his arm strength. He's a smart quarterback. He makes the throws that he thinks he can, just the way Nall or Losman or any quarterback makes the decisions/throws that he thinks he can. He checks down fast because he can't throw quick darts between recievers and defenders, not because he is inherently cautious. yes, he is the steadier quarterback at this time. It is possible, although I doubt it more and more, that he gives the team an ever so slightly better chance to win game one. But Jauron and Marv are not dumb. They know the team can only go so far with KH. They know the best thing to happen for either of their careers is for Losman to be the starting quarterback and play well. And I am convinced that with the coordinator they hired, the receivers they signed, the linemen they signed, and the offense they will run, Losman is going to be given a chance to run this team for the first half of this season. They simply want him to earn the job and fight for it in front of his teammates because of the problems his annointment caused last year. 736272[/snapback] I don't buy that at all about holcomb. He didn't have a problem throwing the deep ball to lee evans against cincinatti last year. While his arm isn't as strong as JP's, its still suitable for a QB in this league. Just look at chad pennington before all his injuries (never a strong arm, but was statistically a top 5 QB) My point is that holcomb doesn't have a killer instinct that I think a QB needs to have. He throws a 4 yard pass against New England when it was 4th and 8, he dumps it off way too much--because he avoids the bonehead error. And because of this, it keeps the team in contention plain and simple. That's teh only reason why I feel like he could be the starter come opening day. I don't believe this competition is a charade like you seem to think so. JP has an advantage because of his ability and willingness to take chances, but he won't win the job if he can't remove that boneheaded play from his game. And by boneheaded play, I dont mean the INT that results from taking shots downfield, yet I'm talking about his apparent mental error of just simply not seeing a linebacker over the middle, or a DB about to make a clean break on the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I don't buy that at all about holcomb. He didn't have a problem throwing the deep ball to lee evans against cincinatti last year. While his arm isn't as strong as JP's, its still suitable for a QB in this league. Just look at chad pennington before all his injuries (never a strong arm, but was statistically a top 5 QB) My point is that holcomb doesn't have a killer instinct that I think a QB needs to have. He throws a 4 yard pass against New England when it was 4th and 8, he dumps it off way too much--because he avoids the bonehead error. And because of this, it keeps the team in contention plain and simple. That's teh only reason why I feel like he could be the starter come opening day. I don't believe this competition is a charade like you seem to think so. JP has an advantage because of his ability and willingness to take chances, but he won't win the job if he can't remove that boneheaded play from his game. And by boneheaded play, I dont mean the INT that results from taking shots downfield, yet I'm talking about his apparent mental error of just simply not seeing a linebacker over the middle, or a DB about to make a clean break on the ball. 736279[/snapback] IIRC, that pass the Lee Evans was one where Evans was more than 10 yards open down the sideline and the pass was more than 5 yards short. Evans had to almost completely stop to catch it. I didn't mean to imply that all of KH's passes are weak, or that he cannot throw the ball downfield at all. But I think his arm strength deflates his confidence of completing the pass. That is why he checks down. I think he avoids the bonehead play, which is an INT because he can't make the quick tight pass on the same play in question. He may see the MLB that Losman didn't (because of experience not talent) but he won't make the throw. It's impossible to tell, and you may be right. It could be a combination of both. Guys with rag arms like Holcomb and Pennington can win in this league but they have to have the right ingredients to do it. They need a very good line, a great running game and recievers who get great separation and have terrific hands. That is how Pennington excelled. They need a top defense and good coaching. The Bills don't have that luxury, But I was never scared of a Pennington led team. He would get his recievers killed. And he could only do so much. I don't want a guy like that unless all other elements of my team excel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 I can't believe this still is even discussed. Holcomb will not win more than eight games no matter what year or team he plays for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schulman16 Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 IIRC, that pass the Lee Evans was one where Evans was more than 10 yards open down the sideline and the pass was more than 5 yards short. Evans had to almost completely stop to catch it. I didn't mean to imply that all of KH's passes are weak, or that he cannot throw the ball downfield at all. But I think his arm strength deflates his confidence of completing the pass. That is why he checks down. I think he avoids the bonehead play, which is an INT because he can't make the quick tight pass on the same play in question. It's impossible to tell, and you may be right. It could be a combination of both. Guys with rag arms like Holcomb and Pennington can win in this league but they have to have the right ingredients to do it. They need a very good line, a great running game and recievers who get great separation and have terrific hands. That is how Pennington excelled. The need a top defense and good coaching. The Bills don't have that luxury, But I was never scared of a Pennington led team. He would get his recievers killed. And he could only do so much. I don't want a guy like that unless all other elements of my team excel. 736290[/snapback] Agreed, yet at the same token, it's not much better to have a QB with a strong arm if he consistently OVER throws his receivers. I saw some nice deep balls from JP last year, but also a lot of concerning accuracy issues. My overall instinct is that this competition is actually a real competition and we shouldn't take it for granted that JP is going to start just because he's athletic and is young. Clearly, age isn't a big deal for marv levy, he's mroe concerned with competance, and I'm sure Jauron shares this view. My hunch is that holcomb will start the season, and if we start september going 1-3 or 0-4, then JP will get the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makbeer Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 KH didnt throw for nearly 500 yards for Cleveland in in one game by checking down every play. You don't -NEED- a cannon to throw the deep ball. Montana to Rice, think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 All of this talk about his 'rubber' arm is exagerated. Granted JP has the stronger arm, but KH can get it downfield just fine. It may not be zipped in like JP can, but he still has a good enough arm to do it. It's funny how a couple people around here start this, and then everyone else jumps on the bandwagon. 736129[/snapback] I don't see how you can say this if you ever watched him play or practice. He can't get the ball down field. KH drove me crazy last year because he had to constantly dump the ball off and ignored Evans wide open downfield. This is why Moulds liked him so much because he was Holcomb's outlet. Out fast wide receiver corps will be wasted with Holcomb under center. Losman still has to mature and prove that he can be a leader and pocket passer but we need to give him that chance. I agree that Holcomb acts more like a leader but he will never be more than a good backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 The players support KH, he's the leader, and I'm thinking there isn't much doubt he will be the starter. oh like eric moulds, lawyer milloy, and sam adams It's funny how a couple people around here start this, and then everyone else jumps on the bandwagon. have you read any newspapers, listened to any radio shows, or talked to any of your friends about this situation? Im guessing you havent because almost all of buffalo must be following the posters on this site then because almost everyone has these same feelings that JP should be the starter, not just on this board, its all of buffalo. Does it occur to you that everybody just agrees, and that they are smart enough to realize that there is no chance in hell holcomb will be the starter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 flea17, thanks for the post. KH might very well be the better QB as you say, right now.....But will he be the face of this franchise for the next 4 years to give Juron a chance to go to the big dance ? Have you ever heard a coach come in and say that they are planning to develop a QB and don't mind losing football games....If they did, they will not be able to get any FA signings or sell season tkts. JP has all the tools and the one key thing he lacks is big game experience. That comes only by playing in the NFL.... Take a look at all the current good QBs.....Manning, Palmer, Rothelisberger, Brady.....If you go back and check their careers, they all made mistakes playing in the 1st X games....However to the support of Ben and BRady, they had a good team that played sound defense/STs and had a good running game and they developed their QB who did not make mistakes. I wish Dick/Marv give JP such an environment. They nedd to get the Vets to shut up and keep their opinions about who should be the QB to themselves, support the guy picked by the coach and then have his Vets and Defense and Running game to take the pressure of the QB and let him develop. My worry though is, if we go by history, Juron picked a vagabond QB in Jim Miller as his starting QB during the 13-3 season and got his team to play sound D and STs.....I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same by bypassing the younger losman and pick the dink-and-dunk KH..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDRupp Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 What does Holcomb give them a chance to do? Win 7 games? Pick up 3 yards on 4th & 8? It may appear that JP does not give them the best chance to win because of his inexperience, but this team is not going to win playoff games this year with either guy at QB. JP gives them the best chance to be relevant in the NFL in 2007 and beyond. Well, every safety in the NFL must read the Stadium Wall then, because they all seem to know Holcomb has no arm also. I'm sure Willis loves standing in the backfield looking at 3 LB's and 2 safeties all within six yards of the line of scrimmage. By the way, I'm sure you could've found 19 other threads where your extremely intelligent post would've fit just fine. But I'm glad you started a new one... 736137[/snapback] While your points are valid, if Marv (who doubts him) and Dick stick to what they have said, KH gives us the best chance to win the next reg season game. Period. It does not matter (to Marv, IMHO) that he might not (or is not according to "us") going to be a starter for a playoff or Super Bowl contender. He simply gives the Bills the best chance to win the NE game unless I see otherwise in the preseason which I doubt. That is not to say I agree with the decision to start KH, I just get the feelong that unless Losman outplays Holcolmb in the pre-season, he won't be starting that first gaem barring injury. Losamn must unseat the current starter by defacto on bb.com, by way of practice rep #'s and order, and the way last season ended. Proves us all worng JP. We want you to... Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Thanks for your insight, Eric. By the way. How are things in Houston? 736160[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Wing '73 Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 I can handle a losing season under Losman as long as he grows and shows improvement. If we have a losing season under Holcomb it will cripple this franchise for the next 2 years beyond that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 If Holcomb starts, the Bills will have to use a mostly short passing game that features a lot of running. Defenses, not respecting the deep ball will crowd the line, stack the bocks and make McGahee settle for lots of short gainers. The Bills offence will be low scoring and booooooorrrring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 If Holcomb starts, the Bills will have to use a mostly short passing game that features a lot of running. Defenses, not respecting the deep ball will crowd the line, stack the bocks and make McGahee settle for lots of short gainers. The Bills offence will be low scoring and booooooorrrring. 736840[/snapback] Exactly and that's what happened last year. KH became less effective as the year went on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenews Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 What does Holcomb give them a chance to do? Win 7 games? Pick up 3 yards on 4th & 8? It may appear that JP does not give them the best chance to win because of his inexperience, but this team is not going to win playoff games this year with either guy at QB. JP gives them the best chance to be relevant in the NFL in 2007 and beyond. Well, every safety in the NFL must read the Stadium Wall then, because they all seem to know Holcomb has no arm also. I'm sure Willis loves standing in the backfield looking at 3 LB's and 2 safeties all within six yards of the line of scrimmage. By the way, I'm sure you could've found 19 other threads where your extremely intelligent post would've fit just fine. But I'm glad you started a new one... 736137[/snapback] smokinandjokin you nailed that one like TKO!!! Unfortunatley this board has become less X's and O's and more of a gathering place for misfit losers. I'm not going to call out any names or numbers, but you really need to pick and choose your battles. I'm glad the season is going to start soon ---- some real football talk might actually occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenews Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 KH didnt throw for nearly 500 yards for Cleveland in in one game by checking down every play. You don't -NEED- a cannon to throw the deep ball. Montana to Rice, think about it. 736358[/snapback] WTF!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frez Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Bring back flutie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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