Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 TD's track record with major quarterback decisions: - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 WOW! It's been hours since you started a JP bashing thread. Eveything all right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 ...Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. 587787[/snapback] You're right. Let's burn Losman at the stake. He is such a failure for a first year starter with a sh*tty OL, poor playcalling, and veterans who are ready to throw him under the bus as opposed to realize they are just as responsible for the mess this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I think your user name should be changed to Holcomb's shaft, since it seems to be something you are well acquainted with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 You're right. Let's burn Losman at the stake. He is such a failure for a first year starter with a sh*tty OL, poor playcalling, and veterans who are ready to throw him under the bus as opposed to realize they are just as responsible for the mess this season. 587798[/snapback] How good was RJ's offensive line or his playcalling? Maybe we should build a real OL, then bring him back to see what he can do behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 I think your user name should be changed to Holcomb's shaft, since it seems to be something you are well acquainted with... 587801[/snapback] You certainly seem fascinated by the topic of Holcomb's private parts. Maybe it's envy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. O'Donnell was a fine QB in the mold of Maddox and Holcomb. An intelligent guy who could make most NFL throws, and who could read the D. You don't ask guys like these to win games. Kordell was a playmaker. Undiciplined at times, and not nearly as savvy as O'Donnell, but the potential threat he posed to opponents was worth the shot. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. Fit our offense at the time. Big arm with years of NFL experience reading Ds. His lack of mobility is only an issue when the offense has a suspect line. His upside at the time had to be his ability to pick up some of Gilbride's run&shoot dynamic passing schemes. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Unlike Rivers, whose delivery is seen by some 'experts' mechanically unsound, the biggest knock on Losman seemed to be 'he was cocky'. OK. I hope these last couple years in Buffalo haven't taken all of his confidence away. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. C'mon Arm, you're smarter than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ1 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 You're right. Let's burn Losman at the stake. He is such a failure for a first year starter with a sh*tty OL, poor playcalling, and veterans who are ready to throw him under the bus as opposed to realize they are just as responsible for the mess this season. 587798[/snapback] A HC with a modicum of common sense wouldn't have allowed veteran players to dictate coaching decisions. This was the surest sign that Mularkey had no idea what he was doing. Hopeful, QB decisions will be made by the HC with conviction and not as a job-saving ploy, this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 TD's track record with major quarterback decisions: - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. 587787[/snapback] You can't use Losman's being drafted by Donahoe as evidence against Losman's chances for success. It's circular. If Donahoe didn't draft Losman, he would've gone in the next five picks (GB, StL, even DAL if they stayed with the pick). That's precisely why Donahoe drafted him where he did. Finally, every QB not drafted in the top five has some serious questions. Otherwise, they would've been drafted in the top five. Heck, this year, many scouts have serious misgivings about top-3 picks Leinert and Young! You'd be hard-pressed to find a coach that has a good record of drafting QB's out of the top 10, because as well-documented as the struggles of high-drafted QB's are,the failure rate of lower-drafted QB's is astounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. O'Donnell was a fine QB in the mold of Maddox and Holcomb. An intelligent guy who could make most NFL throws, and who could read the D. You don't ask guys like these to win games. Kordell was a playmaker. Undiciplined at times, and not nearly as savvy as O'Donnell, but the potential threat he posed to opponents was worth the shot. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. Fit our offense at the time. Big arm with years of NFL experience reading Ds. His lack of mobility is only an issue when the offense has a suspect line. His upside at the time had to be his ability to pick up some of Gilbride's run&shoot dynamic passing schemes. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Unlike Rivers, whose delivery is seen by some 'experts' mechanically unsound, the biggest knock on Losman seemed to be 'he was cocky'. OK. I hope these last couple years in Buffalo haven't taken all of his confidence away. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. C'mon Arm, you're smarter than that. 588003[/snapback] Well said. I would just add: 1) The Kordell Stewart move was a smart move (in light of how successful Kordell was for a time), and I'm pretty sure it was made by Cowher, not Donahoe. Kordell was just a WR/slash and Cowher turned him into the starting QB. 2) If TD messed up with Bledsoe, then Parcells did the same. Bledsoe is an enigma--showing flashes of his old brilliance, and then flashes of being washed up. Given our other choices at QB (Jeff Blake), I think it was a smart move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 O'Donnell was a fine QB in the mold of Maddox and Holcomb. An intelligent guy who could make most NFL throws, and who could read the D. You don't ask guys like these to win games. Kordell was a playmaker. Undiciplined at times, and not nearly as savvy as O'Donnell, but the potential threat he posed to opponents was worth the shot. O'Donnell had intelligence and accuracy; Kordell had athleticism. To me this decision showed that TD placed too high a value on athleticism, and not enough on pocket passing. Fit our offense at the time. Big arm with years of NFL experience reading Ds. His lack of mobility is only an issue when the offense has a suspect line. His upside at the time had to be his ability to pick up some of Gilbride's run&shoot dynamic passing schemes. The downside with Bledsoe was several-fold. First, his QB rating in his last three years in NE hovered, IIRC, in the mid-70s. Not exactly what you're looking for. Not only did Bledsoe have the low rating, he took too long to read the field; making him vulnerable behind a poor offensive line. The third problem with Bledsoe was his age: he wasn't going to be useful to the Bills for a very long time. Unlike Rivers, whose delivery is seen by some 'experts' mechanically unsound, the biggest knock on Losman seemed to be 'he was cocky'. OK. I hope these last couple years in Buffalo haven't taken all of his confidence away. I'm not complaining about Losman's confidence. If I've seen his attitude compared to Jim Kelly's once, I've seen the comparison a hundred times. No, the problem with Losman is that he was better on the run than in the pocket. It's great to be able to roll out and make something happen on a broken play. But there are times when the quarterback has to drop back in the pocket and calmly pick the defense apart. The knock on Losman was that he couldn't do that. The Losman pick reminds me of TD's Kordell Stewart pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Well said. I would just add: 1) The Kordell Stewart move was a smart move (in light of how successful Kordell was for a time), and I'm pretty sure it was made by Cowher, not Donahoe. Kordell was just a WR/slash and Cowher turned him into the starting QB. Kordell made it quite clear his only interest was in playing QB, not receiver. You don't draft a guy like that to play WR. 2) If TD messed up with Bledsoe, then Parcells did the same. Parcells gave up no draft picks whatsoever to get Bledsoe, while TD gave New England our first round pick. Parcells built a good line in Dallas, while TD failed to do this in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 How good was RJ's offensive line or his playcalling? Maybe we should build a real OL, then bring him back to see what he can do behind it. 587979[/snapback] Right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 TD's track record with major quarterback decisions: - Decision 1: Replace Neil O'Donnell with the more mobile Kordell Stewart. - Decision 2: Trade a first round pick for Bledsoe when nobody else thought he was worth that much. - Decision 3: Draft Losman when many or most league experts had serious misgivings about him. Losman has proven little or nothing on the field, so all we have to go on is TD's faith in him. That's not a reassuring thought. 587787[/snapback] You forgot: Brought in Kelly Holcomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Kordell made it quite clear his only interest was in playing QB, not receiver. You don't draft a guy like that to play WR. Parcells gave up no draft picks whatsoever to get Bledsoe, while TD gave New England our first round pick. Parcells built a good line in Dallas, while TD failed to do this in Buffalo. 588020[/snapback] cowher supported stewart, and donohoe drafted jim miller and was a miller backer. donohoe lost out to cowher, and miller moved on to chicago. he was a solid qb, but had too many injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BackInDaDay Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 O'Donnell had intelligence and accuracy; Kordell had athleticism. To me this decision showed that TD placed too high a value on athleticism, and not enough on pocket passing. You may have an insight into what TD preferred in a QB, but I doubt he thought athleticism was a substitute for 'pocket presence'. Players with limited play-making skills aren't projected to do much more than attain mediocre goals. No matter how many 3rd to 7th rounders become the exception to that rule, the rule has to stand. Unless it's determined that more NFL QBs come out of the 4th round (for instance) than the 1st, scouting departmets have to trust their 'high-ceiling' instincts. The downside with Bledsoe was several-fold. First, his QB rating in his last three years in NE hovered, IIRC, in the mid-70s. Not exactly what you're looking for. Not only did Bledsoe have the low rating, he took too long to read the field; making him vulnerable behind a poor offensive line. The third problem with Bledsoe was his age: he wasn't going to be useful to the Bills for a very long time. Drew was the right guy at the time for a lot of reasons, the most important of which may have been marketing purposes. I'm not complaining about Losman's confidence. If I've seen his attitude compared to Jim Kelly's once, I've seen the comparison a hundred times. No, the problem with Losman is that he was better on the run than in the pocket. It's great to be able to roll out and make something happen on a broken play. But there are times when the quarterback has to drop back in the pocket and calmly pick the defense apart. The knock on Losman was that he couldn't do that. The Losman pick reminds me of TD's Kordell Stewart pick. In terms of risk/reward, the Losman pick is very much like the Stewart pick. But as I said above, if you want a play-maker you draft a play-maker. Between Tulane and Buffalo, the kid hasn't had a chance to develope a pocket presence yet. You may be right in thinking he's not capable of it, but there's not enough of a body of work to support your opinion. I'm not totally in disagreement with you over TD's approach to QB. I joked this past season how he would draft Vince Young as a WR. That was before the college season ended, but I know where you're going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risin Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnn. Wake me up when this tool goes back to the shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 You forgot: Brought in Kelly Holcomb 588031[/snapback] Holcomb doesn't count as a major QB decision because he was an afterthought, a backup plan, an insurance policy, and a mentor. Bledsoe was long gone before Holcomb was signed. Which brings me to my next point. TD built Buffalo's defense mostly through free agency. Old age would catch up with this defense all too soon, but it was felt that at least 2005 would be an outstanding year for it. Some even talked about having one of the best defenses in NFL history. Given this win-now defense, did it really make sense to choose that particular time to hand the keys to the offense to the new guy? Especially when said first-year starter had been able to prove little in practice prior to that decision being made? Chalk this one up to yet another stroke of TD's brilliance when it comes to the position of QB. TD clearly thought Losman in his first year would have been at least close to what Bledsoe was last year. He was wrong about that, just as he was probably wrong about Losman's long term future in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 arm , step back and look at what you are saying......... one of TD big mistake was bring in a guy like holcombs had not proved he was a starting QB any place .give JP a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 Right... 588022[/snapback] My point was about Losman, not RJ. But you probably already knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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