TD's track record on QBs

[finknottle]

I'm calling bull sh--.  How about Lee Evans?  His resurgence coincided completely with Losman's reintroduction to the offense in KC.

 

I'm sure he's interested in giving Losman a chance.

 

But of course, the Arm has his ear hardwired to the Bills locker room, so he knows all. 

590202[/snapback]

 

I took him to mean players going out of their way with comments that could be considered controversial, like Moulds did when KH was on the bench. Anybody can praise the starter.

 

I'm sure JP has his supporters among the players - the question is, do they care enough about it to risk alienating the fans and/or the coaches?

[EC-Bills]

Well,  if you consider where he was drafted moot,  then why are you posting in this thread? 

 

The topic of this thread deals with track record, not draft position. You were the one who brought up whether JP should have been drafted where he was:

 

Neither am I... At that point it becomes more than fair to wonder about whether he should have been picked there ...

588757[/snapback]

 

Thus my response of draft position being moot.

 

Regardless of if the sub-text was to criticize JP, the original topic was clearly intended to be about TD's history in drafting qb's. 

 

Based on previous HA postings, I think you give HA far too much credit.

[finknottle]

The topic of this thread deals with track record, not draft position....

590233[/snapback]

 

You are right.

 

Still, I think it's a fair topic to question whether he knows what he's doing with assessing and playing quarterbacks, regardless of HA's motives.

[Ramius]

The only man-love going here seems to be coming from you.

 

I don't particularly like KH.  I don't dislike JP.  I have no deep opinion other than KH plays well in a limited gameplan,  and JP hasn't shown me anything yet.  I am not in either of your two camps.  To me the interesting questions have been the more theoretical 'how long do you keep a first rounder on the bench' and 'how long do you commit to a first rounder before moving on.'

 

The only thing I bash are people who won't discuss Bills topics objectively.  People who assume that because we drafted a player in the first round - whether JP, WM, or whomever - that they will automatically pan out,  will make endless apologies for them that they wouldn't make for another comparably performing player,  and think that we should spend whatever it takes to keep them.  And above all,  who turn any attempt at a critical discussion into a slap-fight.

590148[/snapback]

 

Ok, a bit out of line on the comment, but i am so sick of hearing the arm's stojan all season and all off season how bad JP sucks, and how holcomb is the savior of the franchise. We get that he has a hardon for holcomb and that he hates JP. But theres no need ot repeat it every day.

 

My main point is this: i dont know if JP will turn out to be a bust or a HOFer or a decent starting QB. But what i DO know is that 8 starts is way too few to judge how well he will pan out. I think he showed enough in his second set of 4 games to warrant the starting job next season. Sure he had a number of things that he wasnt terribly great at, but he always showed some real flashes of brilliance. And its tough to judge any QB behind our o-line.

 

Our team will most likely not be good enough to make a serious run at the super bowl next season, so it would be a waste to try and win a few more games with holcomb as losing a few more with JP. Holcomb is a known commodity, and hes not going to get better. Hes not going to wake up in training camp and become a hall of famer. JP has more potential, and needs to play to see how he turns out.

 

I'm not saying he should start because hes a first rounder, but because he showed some flashes of brilliance and needs the experience so we know what we have. I also KNOW that 8 games isnt enough for anyone to make a career judgement on a QB, much less from someone who has a known track record of hating that player.

[The Dean]

You are right.

 

Still,  I think it's a fair topic to question whether he knows what he's doing with assessing and playing quarterbacks,  regardless of HA's motives.

590266[/snapback]

 

 

Ya know i wanted to ask why you kept referring to where JP was drafted. You seem to be saying some of JP's supporters (or, as i see it, people who are willing and eager to give JP a shot) use his 1st round draft status as some sort of reason. i guess I've yet to see that here. It certainly has NO bearing on my evaluation of JP.

[The Senator]

My gosh - the range of emotions here seems quite visceral!

 

Is it possible that HA is really Kelly Holcomb, but manages to disguise the fact by referring to himself in the third person?

[Orton's Arm]

k.

 

This addresses my question of how Arm arrived at the statement below, how?

 

"When Rob Johnson was here, 1/3 of the locker room wanted him to start, 1/3 wanted Flutie, and 1/3 was neutral. This time around, nobody in the locker room is voicing support for Losman, and quite a few are voicing support for Holcomb."

590186[/snapback]

My comments about the three way division in the locker room during the Flutie/Johnson days were based on articles I'd read on the subject. Those are pretty old articles, and I failed to find them in Google. One article in particular I remember reading talked about how some of the players were determined to remain neutral in the Flutie/Johnson controversy. But adding the word "neutral" to my Google search caused me to get very few results, and no useful results. (The search included the terms Flutie, "Rob Johnson," "locker room," neutral, and divided.)

 

My second point was that nobody on the team had publicly stated JP should be the starter. If I've missed a player comment somewhere, I'd welcome a link.

[Orton's Arm]

Ok, a bit out of line on the comment, but i am so sick of hearing the arm's stojan all season and all off season how bad JP sucks, and how holcomb is the savior of the franchise. We get that he has a hardon for holcomb and that he hates JP. But theres no need ot repeat it every day.

 

My main point is this: i dont know if JP will turn out to be a bust or a HOFer or a decent starting QB. But what i DO know is that 8 starts is way too few to judge how well he will pan out. I think he showed enough in his second set of 4 games to warrant the starting job next season. Sure he had a number of things that he wasnt terribly great at, but he always showed some real flashes of brilliance. And its tough to judge any QB behind our o-line.

 

Our team will most likely not be good enough to make a serious run at the super bowl next season, so it would be a waste to try and win a few more games with holcomb as losing a few more with JP. Holcomb is a known commodity, and hes not going to get better. Hes not going to wake up in training camp and become a hall of famer. JP has more potential, and needs to play to see how he turns out.

 

I'm not saying he should start because hes a first rounder, but because he showed some flashes of brilliance and needs the experience so we know what we have. I also KNOW that 8 games isnt enough for anyone to make a career judgement on a QB, much less from someone who has a known track record of hating that player.

590297[/snapback]

 

Read the thread before you reply.

[Orton's Arm]

It certainly has NO bearing on my evaluation of JP.

590342[/snapback]

Um, yeah.

[Ramius]

Read the thread before you reply.

590503[/snapback]

 

Actually i was responding to finknottle who at least seems concerned with having a resonable discussion about losman. And i've responded a handful of times in this thread but i havent read it.

 

Oh i forgot, JP is a bust because TD drafted him. JP bad!

[Orton's Arm]

All right, Ramius. If you're claiming to have read this thread, there's no excuse for the below post:

 

Ok, a bit out of line on the comment, but i am so sick of hearing the arm's stojan all season and all off season how bad JP sucks, and how holcomb is the savior of the franchise.

 

How is that a rational response to this:

 

I'm not saying that the Bills should cut Losman this off-season. But neither should they blind themselves to the fact we may have drafted the next Kordell. If I was the Buffalo GM, I'd take a long, hard look at Cutler. Assuming I liked what I saw, I'd draft him. Having done so, I'd give Losman most or all of the 2006 season to prove himself worthy of being a starter.

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?act=S...ndpost&p=588206

 

You embarrass yourself further:

Our team will most likely not be good enough to make a serious run at the super bowl next season, so it would be a waste to try and win a few more games with holcomb as losing a few more with JP. . . . I also KNOW that 8 games isnt enough for anyone to make a career judgement on a QB, much less from someone who has a known track record of hating that player.

Again, I didn't write that Losman should be released, or denied his chance to prove himself in 2006. If he lives up to your hopes, he'll prove his critics (including me) wrong. But if he falls on his face, the Bills will be happy to have obtained a Cutler to come in and get the job done.

[William O Darby]

I was a JP believer--and I want to be a Jp believer--but after watching every frigging game this year--I don't see it. Even when you watched Eggheads younger brother last year (Eli)--there were flashes of greatness. I just think JP is lacking the intangables and don't see the flashes of greatness that you see in other young quarterbacks

[The Dean]

My comments about the three way division in the locker room during the Flutie/Johnson days were based on articles I'd read on the subject. Those are pretty old articles, and I failed to find them in Google. One article in particular I remember reading talked about how some of the players were determined to remain neutral in the Flutie/Johnson controversy. But adding the word "neutral" to my Google search caused me to get very few results, and no useful results. (The search included the terms Flutie, "Rob Johnson," "locker room," neutral, and divided.)

 

My second point was that nobody on the team had publicly stated JP should be the starter. If I've missed a player comment somewhere, I'd welcome a link.

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i guess what I'm saying (why do I continue as if I'm dealing with a rational human?) is if you're making claims like that you might want to have more evidence than sporadic media reports. That's just not good information gathering. And, assuming you have some intelligence, you would know beter than to disparage a person based on suck flimsy evidence...UNLESS, of course, you had some sort of agenda...or crusade.

[The Dean]

Um, yeah.

590505[/snapback]

 

Exactly. Only a moron would use something like that in ther evaluation. I've made my evaluation by watching him in college and with the Bills. I see progress and potential. I don't care if he was an UFA. I'd say the same of Jason Peters.

[Orton's Arm]

why do I continue as if I'm dealing with a rational human?

Funny, I've asked myself the same question.

is if you're making claims like that you might want to have more evidence than sporadic media reports.  That's just not good information gathering. 

Um, I hate to break this to you, but for the 99.99% of Bills fans who don't have inside sources, media reports are about all we have to go on. I'm not claiming they're always going to have the same level of precision as a statistically rigorous survey analysis, but they're better than nothing.

 

It's not clear what aspect of these media reports you're calling into question. Are you saying that fewer people in the locker room supported Johnson than what was indicated? Do you have any evidence at all to back up your suspicion?

[ganesh]

Thanks for this precious gem of insight. Or at least, thanks for trying.

 

But Finknottle brings up a valuable point. When Rob Johnson was here, 1/3 of the locker room wanted him to start, 1/3 wanted Flutie, and 1/3 was neutral. This time around, nobody in the locker room is voicing support for Losman, and quite a few are voicing support for Holcomb. So either Losman isn't as good as Rob Johnson, or Holcomb is better than Flutie.

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That would not be true.....Lee Evans would definitely love JP losman throw the

ball....McGahee was in full support of Losman at the beginning of the season..

 

The problem was our self-annoited defense that included Milloy, Adams and

Vincent kept thinkinsg that they are the best D and they should go to the

super bowl and got Fletcher and Moulds to buy into that hype....Of course none

of the above mentioned kept their end of the bargain and have the guts to

put all the blame on your starting QB......How nice......True team spirit.....

 

By bringing in Holcomb we have managed to split this locker room....Something that neither Kitna did or Lewis allowed to do in Cincinnati....Last year when the

bengals started 1-3 or 1-4 they could have easily pulled the rug and put Kitna back

in....but they didn't....and lewis did not allow his veteran players to break the team

over the QB issue....and best of all, Kitna was so gracious and did not start

a QB controversy.......

 

I cannot say the same for Holcomb.....He was brought in as a backup and he

should not or have veteran players going begging to the HC to start him or give him a start....(I remember Holcomb mentioned that he deserved to be given

a chance after he won the game against the Dolphins early in the season).....

 

Bottom line is Mularkey and his veteran players instead of having patience

and faith in their QB gave in so quickly and caused a split in the locker room...

No team has gone to win anything considerable when they are divided....

[Orton's Arm]

That would not be true.....Lee Evans would definitely love JP losman throw the

ball....

Whether you're right in saying that or not doesn't affect my original point. No player has voiced public support for Losman returning to being the starter.

 

The problem was our self-annoited defense that included Milloy, Adams and

Vincent kept thinkinsg that they are the best D and they should go to the

super bowl and got Fletcher and Moulds to buy into that hype....Of course none

of the above mentioned kept their end of the bargain and have the guts to

put all the blame on your starting QB......How nice......True team spirit.....

Untrue. The defensive players I've seen quoted have been pretty upfront about their unit's poor play.

 

By bringing in Holcomb we have managed to split this locker room....

Should Holcomb have played badly to avoid splitting the locker room?

 

(I remember Holcomb mentioned that he deserved to be given

a chance after he won the game against the Dolphins early in the season).....

It's funny. I've heard criticism of Holcomb for not having a starter's mindset; as shown by the fact he didn't demand to be the starter. Now I'm hearing criticism of Holcomb from the opposite angle. This tells me that maybe Holcomb's actions were pretty moderate.

Bottom line is Mularkey and his veteran players instead of having patience

and faith in their QB gave in so quickly and caused a split in the locker room...

No team has gone to win anything considerable when they are divided....

590897[/snapback]

It's been said that if you think you have two quarterbacks, you really don't have any. Holcomb could give a team quality play for another two - three years, but an older QB like him isn't ideal for a rebuilding team like the Bills. That's why the Bills should be looking at guys like Cutler.