This is hard to say!

[AKC]

That's true, but no one said that Brady's talents are "portable to most NFL offenses historically."  Or at least not that I've seen...

479374[/snapback]

 

 

I don't know how else you can make a "Best Player" argument without considering their ability in other settings. Can oyou argue Barry Sanders as the best RB without considering how his style might have affected a good football team?

 

 

"Best Player" arguments cross all eras and teams and styles. It's only fair to consider how someone's strengths and weaknesses would have worked in other settings AFAIC, otherwise there's no basis for making the statement of "Best Of" to begin with.

[R. Rich]

See, that's just it.  We can argue about if for the next 50 years, but we'll never know how Elway would have done in New England's system.  All we can do is look at their performance in the systems in which they played.  He doesn't "win" all of his team's games anymore than he loses them - it's a team game afterall.

479397[/snapback]

 

Imagine that.

[taterhill]

this thread has bang my head against the wall potential

[Hollywood Donahoe]

What's your obsession with Bledsoe?

Bledsoe is the only other starting QB that Vinatieri has regularly played with. I thought even you could figure that out.

 

Now quit dodging and answer the question. If Vinatieri's making Brady good and not the other way around, why wasn't Vinatieri booting Super Bowl winning kicks when Bledsoe was the QB?

[AKC]

this thread has bang my head against the wall potential

479408[/snapback]

 

No threat of hurting anything there! Unless the wall is important to you?

[dave mcbride]

Just take Elway for example. He opened up with some struggles due to his reliance on his feet (sound familiar?) but once he settled down into the pocket he became a complete QB who won it all in a big-ball play-action offense that Brady simply couldn't have survived in. On the other hand, had you given Elway the D in NE, the kicker and even used the hinky dink offense, Elway would have turned in 3 or 4 TD Super Bowl wins, probably 4 times. Unitas the same, Manning has the full toolbox, Kelly and Favre possibilities although they are/were both on the wrong side of the risk taking equation. So I'd say at least 3 of those you mention would have had BETTER results with the NE team than Mudslide has.

479380[/snapback]

 

i'm not going to argue that elways was a bad player, but up until shanahan arrived, he was probably the most overrated qb ever. i'm basing this upon my own eyes as well as these stats, by the way.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

 

as for those "weak" denver defenses, you can do better than this, AKC. the years the broncos made the super bowl under reeves they were ranked 1, 7, and 15. the year they almost made it (91, when they barely lost to buffalo in the championship game), they were 3 overall.

[MDH]

It's called RAC. It's an element of West Coast passing games that holds consistently true. That's why West Coast teams like the Seahawks have virtually the same YPA reception as the Pats.

479394[/snapback]

 

You honestly believe that defenses look at film of Brady, see that he doesn't throw the ball more than 5 yards and still somehow can't stop a Patriots offense that only uses a very small percentage of the field? Go watch some Pats games (and don't say you have, it's obvious you haven't). Brady throws lots of intermediant stuff, lots of short stuff and some long stuff. In other words, he uses the entire field, which is why he is so effective.

 

I swear there are people that only saw Brady play his first year as a starter (when he did only dink and dunk the ball) and think he's the same QB now as he was then.

[AKC]

why wasn't Vinatieri booting Super Bowl winning kicks when Bledsoe was the QB?

479411[/snapback]

 

I realize you don't really understand the game very well, but the answer is that the defenses fielded in NE were not nearly as good.

 

Here's your formula-

 

Good D=Good Team/ Bad D=Bad Team. The QB doesn't have an equal effect.

 

Oh yeah, the Pat's D- it's becoming the latter. Enjoy the tumble!

[dave mcbride]

I realize you don't really understand the game very well, but the answer is that the defenses fielded in NE were not nearly as good.

 

Here's your formula-

 

Good D=Good Team/ Bad D=Bad Team. The QB doesn't have an equal effect.

 

Oh yeah, the Pat's D-  it's becoming the latter. Enjoy the tumble!

479418[/snapback]

to be fair, bledsoe did play poorly in the 96 playoffs, both in the championship game against the jags and against the pack.

[AKC]

i'm not going to argue that elways was a bad player, but up until shanahan arrived, he was probably the most overrated qb ever.  i'm basing this upon my own eyes as well as these stats, by the way.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

 

as for those "weak" denver defenses, you can do better than this, AKC.  the years the broncos made the super bowl under reeves they were ranked 1, 7, and 15. the year they almost made it (91, when they barely lost to buffalo in the championship game), they were 3 overall.

479413[/snapback]

 

Stats for QBs have improved dramatically as the reliance on the short game has become necessary due to improved athleticism across trhe LOS. And it's tiem the league recognized the farce of the "Passer rating" system that shows guys like Joe Namath down among the Brian Sipes of the league.

 

I didn't actually address the issue of Denver Ds directly but needless to say if you look at their competition in that time there were more balanced teams at the top, and hence their competition were better overall teams. Today we see less balanced teams competing in the playoffs for the most part.

[AKC]

to be fair, bledsoe did play poorly in the 96 playoffs, both in the championship game against the jags and against the pack.

479424[/snapback]

 

Bledsoe's hardly my measure, but I do understand why Patsy fans want to measure Brady against him- it's one case where they can definitely put Little Lord Fauntleroy in the lead.

 

Against Elway I don't see any argument, JE was a QB who transcended systems with a great touch in the short game, great field vision, a great deep arm and a dangerous ability as a runner. Elway was destined to be a champ in any system; if Brady were playing in Arizona right now I doubt he'd even be their #2.

[smokinandjokin]

 

Make this horrible, worthless thread stop.

 

Can we all agree that Brady sucks just enough to own 3 Super Bowl titles? And AKC, you better watch out for your excuse that Brady rides a good defense...cause theirs isnt too good this year. There's a lot of teams who would be 1-5 after that 6 game stretch.

 

 

That debate about who is better, Brady or Vinatieri, made this thread extra retarded.

[LabattBlue]

I'm not so sure about that.  We might not all jump up to defend Brady, but it is the usual suspects falling over themselves to blast him.

479324[/snapback]

Well said. This thread should have closed after you posted this.

[Dawgg]

Certainly. On the same token, where would AVin be if Drew Bledsoe were his QB? Oh yeah, we saw that scenario play out over the course of 7 years.

 

Most of the time, the Patriots were in situations were all they needed was a field goal. Thus, going for a TD was out of the question (particularly in the Super Bowl victories against Carolina and St. Louis). So I would necessarily characterize it as an inability to finish drives. The objective was set at the beginning to get into field goal range, and that objective was accomplished.

 

 

I appreciate you acknowledging who the BEST player is on the Pats.

 

I'd ask you to consider where they would have been over this span with Jake Arians kicking field goals for them. I can tell you this, no one would be talking about the QB who couldn't get them to the end zone!

479263[/snapback]

[AKC]

  Brady throws lots of intermediant stuff, lots of short stuff and some long stuff.  In other words, he uses the entire field, which is why he is so effective.

 

 

479417[/snapback]

 

The stats say something else-

 

on all of his throws over 20 yards this year he's 6-23 for about a 45 passer rating, right about where his career numbers run and also, at that range (over 20) the worst or one of the worst in the league.

 

He gets an occassional ball over the top because no one puts much emaphasis on coverage over 20 yards deep on a guy who throws so poorly over 20 yards.

Does the NE scheme reward the behind the LOS passes that Brady has built a career on? Oh yes- over the recent past their defense has given them lots of extra ops and the little ball O has been productive. If their D continues though to give up the kind of yardage it has this season it won't much matter how many behind the line of scrimmage passes Brady completes and how many yards they run for after the catch- the net result in the W/L column will be a bad NE team. Defense rules, and it's ruled that team during their moment in the sun- it's merely a QB obsessed media and fans who hold Brady up as the most important piece of the puzzle.

[Adam]

The league is much more watered down than it was back when it had good football- he is very good though, I'm not saying he isn't. Don't put him up with Kelly, Elway, and Marino though

[dave mcbride]

Stats for QBs have improved dramatically as the reliance on the short game has become necessary due to improved athleticism across trhe LOS. And it's tiem the league recognized the farce of the "Passer rating" system that shows guys like Joe Namath down among the Brian Sipes of the league.

 

479432[/snapback]

namath isn't a fair comparison. in the years that we're talking about, marino, montana, kelly, esiason, bernie kosar, neil lomax, and even ken o'brien consistently put up better numbers than elway. my point isn't that o'brien was a better qb than elway, but that elway was overrated, at least in the regular season. i will grant you the afc playoffs, though. he also played extremely well his final four seasons, but that was a running team first and foremost.

[Campy]

Well said.  This thread should have closed after you posted this.

479446[/snapback]

 

This thread has me impersonating your avatar.

[AKC]

namath isn't a fair comparison. in the years that we're talking about, marino, montana, kelly, esiason, bernie kosar, neil lomax, and even ken o'brien consistently put up better numbers than elway. my point isn't that o'brien was a better qb than elway, but that elway was overrated, at least in the regular season.  i will grant you the afc playoffs, though. he also played extremely well his final four seasons, but that was a running team first and foremost.

479460[/snapback]

 

I would go with overrated in the first third of his career (JE), but as he matured and especially at the end when he only used his feet on rare occassions, I thought of him as a prototype complete QB and among the best to ever play.

 

If Brady gets kicked to someone like Houston and takes them to regular playoff shots I'll move him up a bit, but right now he appears to me to be the single major beneficiary of being in the Belichick magic show.

[dave mcbride]

I would go with overrated in the first third of his career (JE), but as he matured and especially at the end when he only used his feet on rare occassions, I thought of him as a prototype complete QB and among the best to ever play.

 

If Brady gets kicked to someone like Houston and takes them to regular playoff shots I'll move him up a bit, but right now he appears to me to be the single major beneficiary of being in the Belichick magic show.

479469[/snapback]

in the latter portion of his career, i would agree - he was really good.

[MDH]

The stats say something else-

 

on all of his throws over 20 yards this year he's 6-23 for about a 45 passer rating, right about where his career numbers run and also, at that range (over 20) the worst or one of the worst in the league.

 

He gets an occassional ball over the top because no one puts much emaphasis on coverage over 20 yards deep on a guy who throws so poorly over 20 yards.

Does the NE scheme reward the behind the LOS passes that Brady has built a career on? Oh yes- over the recent past their defense has given them lots of extra ops and the little ball O has been productive. If their D continues though to give up the kind of yardage it has this season it won't much matter how many behind the line of scrimmage passes Brady completes and how many yards they run for after the catch- the net result in the W/L column will be a bad NE team. Defense rules, and it's ruled that team during their moment in the sun- it's merely a QB obsessed media and fans who hold Brady up as the most important piece of the puzzle.

479453[/snapback]

 

 

That "media" you're talking about includes many former players and coaches. All of whom hold Brady in high regard. I guess you must know something they don't.

 

I can't even fathom how anybody can legitimately argue that the Ds the Pats face play them close to the LoS yet can't stop Brady and Co. from busting off 13 yard screen passes repeatedly (Brady's ypc is 12.73). Well, I can fathom it, said person doesn’t actually watch the games.

[AKC]

I can't even fathom how anybody can legitimately argue that the Ds the Pats face play them close to the LoS yet can't stop Brady and Co. from busting off 13 yard screen passes repeatedly (Brady's ypc is 12.73). 

479480[/snapback]

 

 

Then it's even more peculiar that you're making that argument.

 

The facts are the facts-

 

A) Brady is among the least succesful QBs in the NFL throwing passes beyond 20 yards.

 

B) Without a dominating defense Brady's a .500 QB.

 

So watch all the quarterback play you want to on Sundays, I prefer to watch the things that actually make a difference in the W/L column. And if you want to argue against facts with me you'll have to do a lot better than fabricating some argument that is only confusing to you.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

The Pats could have won 3 of the last 4 SB's with about half a dozen of the currently-starting QB's. And I agree that without his dominating defense and Vinatieri, he's not nearly as successful. Hell just look at Bledsoe winning at Pgh in the 2001 AFCCG and the Pats' 2002 season for proof!

[Ramius]

Brady is good, but way overrated. Most of his success IS due to the system hes in.

 

1. You could sub brady for gannon or johnson in the Buccs-Raiders super bowl, and no matter what side he was on, the outcome would have been the same.

 

2. Theres no way brady could have lead a team like the '99 rams to the SB title

 

3. Theres no way in hell Brady would have driven the Bills from their own 10 into FG range in SB 25

 

It sounds like a commercial, but its true:

Tied in the Super Bowl?

call Tom Brady: leading the league in 20 yard FG drives...

[AKC]

Brady is good, but way overrated. Most of his success IS due to the system hes in.

 

1. You could sub brady for gannon or johnson in the Buccs-Raiders super bowl, and no matter what side he was on, the outcome would have been the same.

 

2. Theres no way brady could have lead a team like the '99 rams to the SB title

 

3. Theres no way in hell Brady would have driven the Bills from their own 10 into FG range in SB 25

 

It sounds like a commercial, but its true:

Tied in the Super Bowl?

call Tom Brady: leading the league in 20 yard FG drives...

479647[/snapback]

 

 

I don't remember the plays in the drive on #3, but you're absolutely right about 1 and 2.

[R. Rich]

And so, w/ a break in the action, it seems we've learned from this thread that the following QBs were overrated:

 

Joe Namath

John Elway

Tom Brady

 

 

Now, we can start talking about the underrated guys we should discuss here:

 

Joe Ferguson

Alex Van Pelt

Kelly Holcomb

 

 

Have @ it, folks.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

I realize you don't really understand the game very well...

This coming from the guy who once said that the top deep passers in the game throw 5-6 40+ yard passes per game.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

The Pats could have won 3 of the last 4 SB's with about half a dozen of the currently-starting QB's.

[MDH]

Then it's even more peculiar that you're making that argument.

479627[/snapback]

 

Umm, sure, I'm the one making that arguement. You caught me.

 

Then it's even more peculiar that you're making that argument.

 

The facts are the facts-

 

A) Brady is among the least succesful QBs in the NFL throwing passes beyond 20 yards.

 

B) Without a dominating defense Brady's a .500 QB.

 

So watch all the quarterback play you want to on Sundays, I prefer to watch the things that actually make a difference in the W/L column. And if you want to argue against facts with me you'll have to do a lot better than fabricating some argument that is only confusing to you.

479627[/snapback]

 

It's a "fact" that he'd be a .500 without a dominating D? Where do you get this sh*t. Do you just make it up in your head and label it a "fact" to make yourself happy? If this is how you define “facts” then yeah, I really don’t want to argue “facts” with you. Yeah, let's take 6 games out of a career and label it a "fact".

 

Anyhow, let's consider this season in which the Pats D is one of the worst in the league thus far. The Pats have played perhaps the toughest schedule in the league (Oak, Carolina, Pittsuburgh, SD, Atl & Denver) and aren't sub .500.

 

Care to lay some money on this "fact"? Hell, you can't lose, it's a FACT they'll be .500 without a "dominating" D! I'll wager any amount of cash that the Pats finish with a winning record this year in every game that Brady plays the majority of the snaps at QB.

 

Also, how about throwing me a link with your over 20 yards completion stats, I'm interested in taking a look at it.

[Mark VI]

He is very good but I don't rate him ahead of Steve Young, John Elway, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh or Roger Staubach. Maybe even others in addition to those.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

Then it's even more peculiar that you're making that argument.

 

The facts are the facts-

 

A) Brady is among the least succesful QBs in the NFL throwing passes beyond 20 yards.

 

B) Without a dominating defense Brady's a .500 QB.

 

479627[/snapback]

 

You must not be wearing any pants while you're typing this because I can see your nuts.

[drnykterstein]

Tom Brady. People say things like "Best QB ever" "Best QB playing the game" and other things making him out to be the "Best QB" at something. I've got a few problems with this...

 

1. Are you serious that he's better than Peyton? The thought of someone being dumb enough to think that just pisses me off sooo bad that I just lose all respect for anyone who says this and just don't care for anything they say anymore. Name just one thing Brady has done or can do that Peyton can't (given the same offense and defense). Just one. Throw a better screen pass or something? Brady cannot do anything that Peyton has not already done to perfection.

 

2. Just that fact that a very valid arguement can be made that he is a system QB takes him out of running for best QB ever. He's not even top 10. A "Best QB ever" type guy is unquestioned at his QB skills and no one doubts that he is just plain good. Many people (obviously) doubt that Brady is good. Sorry but to be put on a list like that there can b no doubt, and now there is plenty of it.

[R. Rich]

You must not be wearing any pants while you're typing this because I can see your nuts.

479688[/snapback]

 

 

You can stop looking @ any time.

[ganesh]

If Brady gets kicked to someone like Houston and takes them to regular playoff shots I'll move him up a bit, but right now he appears to me to be the single major beneficiary of being in the Belichick magic show.

479469[/snapback]

 

I think Football is an ultimate team game...and your stars depend on your

cast....What makes someone different from the avg. is their ability to get

the better of their supporting cast...

 

Kelly had a star cast around him....Great OL, future HoF RB, possible HoF

WR....and a great TE...and he did not mess that up....

 

Same goes for Brady...He works well with his supporting cast....Bledsoe

could not work with the same cast, because his game is not set for the

type of football Belichek schemed....

 

The difference between Dilfer and Brady is Dilfer could do that just for

one year.....Brady has done it multiple times....

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Name just one thing Brady has done or can do that Peyton can't. Just one.

Brady's been pretty good at NOT saving his worst performances for January. Manning still has some trouble with that.

[KD in CA]

to play QB

 

I HATE to say it!!! BUt I think we should watch this guy play and enjoy what we are seeing...

I'll wish him a broken arm when he plays the Bills but damn he is a good QB

479027[/snapback]

 

 

Just how hard did you hit that guardrail Nick?

 

[ganesh]

Then it's even more peculiar that you're making that argument.

 

B) Without a dominating defense Brady's a .500 QB.

 

479627[/snapback]

 

This is like saying Jim Kelly is a avg QB without Thomas/Reed and that

OL to protect him....

 

I don't like BRady because he plays for a rival team....but don't discredit

his achievements....

[MDH]

This is like saying Jim Kelly is a avg QB without Thomas/Reed and that

OL to protect him....

 

479708[/snapback]

 

 

This just in, Kelly Holcomb is a better QB than Tom Brady.

 

Fact: Kelly Holcomb is 2-0 this year without a dominating D

Fact: Tom Brady is 3-3 this year without a dominating D

 

Conclusion: Holcomb is (obviously) the better QB.

[AKC]

This coming from the guy who once said that the top deep passers in the game throw 5-6 40+ yard passes per game.

479675[/snapback]

 

 

The promise of the young is that they might some day become amusing.

[Dan Gross]

The stats say something else-

 

on all of his throws over 20 yards this year he's 6-23 for about a 45 passer rating, right about where his career numbers run and also, at that range (over 20) the worst or one of the worst in the league.

 

479453[/snapback]

 

Where are you getting that rating? I plugged the ESPN Numbers (6/23, 214 yards, 3 TD's, 1 INT) into two different calculators and both times came up with 87.32. Calculator 1 and Calculator 2.

 

Now if you are serious about comparing him to Peyton Manning, his numbers are 3/17, 79 yards, 3 TD, 2 INT, for a rating of 46.45.

 

If you're talking about last year, then yeah, his numbers weren't great, but if you measure greatness by the "number of long-ball attempts" he threw more passes over 20 yards than Manning last year as well as this year (82 to 64)....