Coaches are heavily implying that Coleman isn’t trying on the field

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Josh is missing alot of reads this year, and our "route spacing" seems off.  

 

Watching the all-22, Josh missed 5-6 reads in the 1st half alone.  

 

Route spacing, too many times we have w guys coming into an area where a single defender can cover both.  Its either design, or players making poor decisions with option routes/adjusting their routes.  

 

Joshs footwork is crazy as F this year.  If anyone actually sits to watch this all 22, you'll see his "base" is off.  I truly think hes feeling more pressure because the OL isnt as consistent and some of it is mental.

 

All of this contributing.

 

And for Keon, hes open alot more than being led on (as you noted).  Either not the primary read, or Josh not seeing it. 

 

But in a nutshell, our offense has lost its groove far too often vs LY.

 

I think you let Josh play some no huddle and get him going earlier in games.

i watch all22 of each game 

 

there isn't anything wrong w Allen's play. you don't have the 4th best completion% in the league w an 'off base'

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I don't disagree. Beane tends to pick more high floor, lower ceiling players than those teams who aim for the blue chip, boom or bust type players more. Although I think Kincaid, Hairston, Bishop and Walker have the potential to be those players in time and Cook has turned into one.

 

Cook has been the closest thing to a KC/Philly pick that Beane has made. From a premier school, coming off a National Championship, family pedigree, known name who jumps off the screen... Very unlike most of his picks. And hey, look, he's turned into the 2nd best player on the entire team just behind the league MVP. Crazy how that works!

 

Probably why Philly had dedicated big portions of their drafts to that UGA class as well.

 

Whether it's Beane drafting, McD coaching, even Brady scheming... we try to be way too cute at every level, like we're going to catch lightning in a bottle again the way we did with Josh and show everyone how much smarter we are. When in reality, just by the numbers, the odds are stacked against every pick succeeding as it is.

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

i watch all22 of each game 

 

there isn't anything wrong w Allen's play. you don't have the 4th best completion% in the league w an 'off base'

Strongly disagree.  Josh even admits his mechanics are off.

 

You end up with the 4th best compl % when such a high % of your throws are 0-5 yards and <10 in total.

 

Josh could throw from his a** and complete a 5 yard pass.

 

And his mechanics are part of what I said is contributing.  His reads are equally poor.

 

Again, this isnt every game.  Its just 3 or 4/9 games this year --- 3 being losses.  Thats way more than LY already.  

 

Nobody expects him to be perfect but he isnt playing like a top 5 QB right now 

[GoBills808]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

Strongly disagree.  Josh even admits his mechanics are off.

 

You end up with the 4th best compl % when such a high % of your throws are 0-5 yards and <10 in total.

 

Josh could throw from his a** and complete a 5 yard pass.

 

And his mechanics are part of what I said is contributing.  His reads are equally poor.

 

Again, this isnt every game.  Its just 3 or 4/9 games this year --- 3 being losses.  Thats way more than LY already.  

 

Nobody expects him to be perfect but he isnt playing like a top 5 QB right now 

wrong

 

allen is league average 17th in intended air yards/attempt

 

he's also 1st in QBvalue/average, 6th in EPA/dropback, 7th in CPOE, 6th in success%, 2nd in ELO, 8th in ANY/A, 7th in win%added/dropback...no offense but people saying allen isn't playing well ive been kind of ignoring rn

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

wrong

 

allen is league average 17th in intended air yards/attempt

 

he's also 1st in QBvalue/average, 6th in EPA/dropback, 7th in CPOE, 6th in success%, 2nd in ELO, 8th in ANY/A, 7th in win%added/dropback...no offense but people saying allen isn't playing well ive been kind of ignoring rn

No offense, I know what im watching...

 

Just shows your football IQ to me rn

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

No offense, I know what im watching...

 

Just shows your football IQ to me rn

sucks to realize i know

 

keep trying tho

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

wrong

 

allen is league average 17th in intended air yards/attempt

 

he's also 1st in QBvalue/average, 6th in EPA/dropback, 7th in CPOE, 6th in success%, 2nd in ELO, 8th in ANY/A, 7th in win%added/dropback...no offense but people saying allen isn't playing well ive been kind of ignoring rn

I know those numbers, but take a look at this play. It's 2-10. He has open guys at multiple time during the play, and he throws the ball away. He even starts to throw to Keon early in the play, but decides to bail on the pocket instead. Then he doesn't pull the trigger to Shakir, who would have had at least 6 yards there. We were already losing 13-0 at this point and we needed to make a play. I don't know what is going on, but this is a frustrating watch.

 

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

I don't think you can really say they don't try to get him the ball. Keon has the second most targets of all pass catchers (49), second to only Shakir (58) and if you subtract all the bubble screens thrown to Shakir, I think with out a doubt it shows Coleman gets the most downfield targets on the team.  No other WR has over 20 and Kincaid has 36 for reference.

 

Allen has missed a number of reads and bailed on clean pockets for sure and I don't know if it's confidence in these guys combined with playcalling/scheme or what but something is very off from last year IMO.

 

With Keon, the targets they are giving him are too much out of the misuse of him, like the over reliance on running Keon downfield for 50/50 balls.  And IMHO, Keon, Shakir, and Kincaid should see more consistent targets.  

29 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Josh is missing alot of reads this year, and our "route spacing" seems off.  

 

Watching the all-22, Josh missed 5-6 reads in the 1st half alone.  

 

Route spacing, too many times we have w guys coming into an area where a single defender can cover both.  Its either design, or players making poor decisions with option routes/adjusting their routes.  

 

Joshs footwork is crazy as F this year.  If anyone actually sits to watch this all 22, you'll see his "base" is off.  I truly think hes feeling more pressure because the OL isnt as consistent and some of it is mental.

 

All of this contributing.

 

And for Keon, hes open alot more than being led on (as you noted).  Either not the primary read, or Josh not seeing it. 

 

But in a nutshell, our offense has lost its groove far too often vs LY.

 

I think you let Josh play some no huddle and get him going earlier in games.

 

Spot on

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Low Positive said:

I know those numbers, but take a look at this play. It's 2-10. He has open guys at multiple time during the play, and he throws the ball away. He even starts to throw to Keon early in the play, but decides to bail on the pocket instead. Then he doesn't pull the trigger to Shakir, who would have had at least 6 yards there. We were already losing 13-0 at this point and we needed to make a play. I don't know what is going on, but this is a frustrating watch.

 

ive watched all the plays. i don't pretend to know exactly why certain throws get made/don't get made...i can give you my guesses. you probably wont like them

 

first off re: coleman route here. allen actually did throw that shallow cross to shakir in this game- it resulted in a 2yard gain and shakir getting absolutely rocked. seam to samuel is probably next read but that's a tough throw. moves on to other side of the field reads, doesnt trust pocket, bails

 

not super indicative of anything imo

[PoundingDog]

No doubt there is more up and downs to Allen's game this season. This is not to say Allen is not good, just relative - we are comparing him to the very top QBs of the NFL and the all-time greats.

 

He's going to be 30 next year. The running, scrambling will go down more and in-pocket game to increase. It is another area for him to continue to improve (hard to believe for the reining MVP but his in-pocket game does have room to improve). 

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I know those numbers, but take a look at this play. It's 2-10. He has open guys at multiple time during the play, and he throws the ball away. He even starts to throw to Keon early in the play, but decides to bail on the pocket instead. Then he doesn't pull the trigger to Shakir, who would have had at least 6 yards there. We were already losing 13-0 at this point and we needed to make a play. I don't know what is going on, but this is a frustrating watch.

 

Agree - Those who know what to watch for, its obvious Josh is missing reads and Im not wasting time proving his "base" is off to GoBills808...it will come out in the offseason about his mechanics.  Hes been talking to his guy and working thru it in season too.

 

Its mostly mental IMO - need to trust the OL to hold up, trust the reads, and when that's off his mechanics are off with an extra pat of the ball or getting his eyes out of place/leaving the pocket early.

 

Josh is still amazing, people here have issues with any criticism of him.  Hes had multiple games below his standard, just so happens weve lost 3 of those.

[Alphadawg7]

52 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I've been here long enough to recall whenever coaches were criticized that the fall-back defense was that fans don't know more than them.

 

Now, the supposed under-utilization of Coleman is on the OC and QB's for not targeting him enough?  

 

Because it's a coaching (the OC primarily) issue and the reigning MVP's fault?  Not Coleman, his physical limitations, or being put in a difficult spot expected to produce without the requisite skill set and facing zero competition? 

 

Tell me you are not open to unbiased dialogue on the subject without flat out saying you are not open to unbiased dialogue on the subject.

[FieldGeneral]

The locker room video after the KC win was very telling. As if the on the field tape didn't already tell us everything. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

ive watched all the plays. i don't pretend to know exactly why certain throws get made/don't get made...i can give you my guesses. you probably wont like them

 

first off re: coleman route here. allen actually did throw that shallow cross to shakir in this game- it resulted in a 2yard gain and shakir getting absolutely rocked. seam to samuel is probably next read but that's a tough throw. moves on to other side of the field reads, doesnt trust pocket, bails

 

not super indicative of anything imo

 

No disrespect, but even when you are shown clear facts you always down play or disregard them if the facts don't match your bias.  You can't even admit that this was a clear mistake by Allen.  It was 100% a mistake, and a bunch of other TSW people I was chatting with live in the game off site and I were all screaming at Allen for not throwing this pass when it happened.  

 

You know it is possible Allen can make mistakes too right and you can still be able to dislike Coleman.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but even when you are shown clear facts you always down play or disregard them if the facts don't match your bias.  You can't even admit that this was a clear mistake by Allen.  It was 100% a mistake, and a bunch of other TSW people I was chatting with live in the game off site and I were all screaming at Allen for not throwing this pass when it happened.  

 

You know it is possible Allen can make mistakes too right and you can still be able to dislike Coleman.

lol what exactly is the mistake here? not throwing to coleman? ffs watch him on his release, he's moving in slow motion, he doesnt have a good feel for setting up that rub and gets passed over...happens 

 

 

[Low Positive]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but even when you are shown clear facts you always down play or disregard them if the facts don't match your bias.  You can't even admit that this was a clear mistake by Allen.  It was 100% a mistake, and a bunch of other TSW people I was chatting with live in the game off site and I were all screaming at Allen for not throwing this pass when it happened.  

 

You know it is possible Allen can make mistakes too right and you can still be able to dislike Coleman.

Joe Marino broke down that same play and came to the same conclusion that I did. I think he's so worried about DBs jumping routes and getting picks that he's "seeing ghosts." I think the solution is that they need to just let him play. But there is also a lot of footage from this game that demonstrates WRs not getting open either due to a lack of speed or poor scheme. It does cut both ways, and everyone was bad on Sunday. 

[Mango]

20 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No he isn't.  Everyone keeps posting about how "Allen pushed for Coleman" when there isn't the slightest proof that happened.  And in fact it goes against how low key Allen appears to be in these things.  

 

And please don't link to the article saying how Allen sent Coleman a text saying "welcome to the Bills" and he was looking forward to "working with him".  That's what every QB would do.  And it's no big deal that the text went out before the Friday draft started as the Bills had the first pick that day.

 

You don't have to be Ian Rappaport to figure out what probably happened.  Bean told Allen in the days leading up to the draft that the Bills were going to take a WR with their #1 pick.  I'm sure Allen got excited and Bean then probably told Allen what the parameters were going to be and who was likely going to be available at that point and he asked Allen for his opinion. 

 

Obviously an athletic, big bodied WR was the Bills greatest need and would appeal to Allen.  And given that the Bills had Shakir guys like MaConkey would be less appealing.   But Allen didn't vet these receivers the Bills scouting staff did.  Allen likely got sheets with the pros & cons of the guys who the Bills were thinking of selecting late in the 1st round.

 

Do you or anyone else believe for one minute that Bean went to Allen and said "hey Josh we want to draft a WR in the 1st round and we're vacillating between moving up in the draft and taking one of the studs or staying put and taking one of the guys late in the 1st" and Allen then pushed back and said "Brandon I love this guy Coleman, lets just stay put and pick him".

 

If you haven't figured this out by now Allen is the consummate Company man.  He will support whatever senior management wants to do.  

 

 

 

 

 

I mean Beane says that Allen sends him loads of mock drafts in the off-season, pays attention to the senior bowl, etc.

 

Allen confirmed all that.

 

He also said Josh sat down and went through WR film with all the coaches, and then called Beane the morning of the draft to talk WR.

 

So either Beane is making up it all up and Allen is nodding his head, or the truth lies somewhere well above "company man" and well below "Josh Allen held a gun to Brandon Beanes head before making the selection".

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Mango

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

lol what exactly is the mistake here? not throwing to coleman? ffs watch him on his release, he's moving in slow motion, he doesnt have a good feel for setting up that rub and gets passed over...happens 

 

 

Throwing the ball away instead of taking the easy 5 + yards to Shakir, which he could have had twice. Once from the pocket, and once when scrambling. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Low Positive said:

Joe Marino broke down that same play and came to the same conclusion that I did. I think he's so worried about DBs jumping routes and getting picks that he's "seeing ghosts." I think the solution is that they need to just let him play. But there is also a lot of footage from this game that demonstrates WRs not getting open either due to a lack of speed or poor scheme. It does cut both ways, and everyone was bad on Sunday. 

i mean no offense to whoever joe marino is but i dont know how you can look at that play and not immediately see coleman's release off the line

 

like that is what that play is about to me. not some read that the QB may or may not have missed

[Haslett_Stomp]

6 minutes ago, FieldGeneral said:

The locker room video after the KC win was very telling. As if the on the field tape didn't already tell us everything. 

 

Agreed, however it was the McDermott speech after the Panthers game.  Coleman just stood there with no emotion while others were fired up and clapping/cheering.