2018* QB Draft

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am fine the Bills waiting on receiver in round 1 in 2026 as long as they really attack it in 2027. And that might mean being willing to go right up the draft board. The sort of move I know you advocated in the 2024 draft. 

I will believe the Bills will attack WR in the draft when I see it.

[FireChans]

12 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

This thread brings to mind how so many here say Beane is lucky he has Allen. "If Allen were injured, we would win 4-5 games." is what I read here. Well, duh. That would be the case for any team that loses a QB of that caliber. I believe Allan realizes how lucky he was that he wasn't drafted by the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals that year. It's not surprising to see these QBs perform better when they leave those crap franchises. Allen had a lot of things to work on when he entered the league, and he got selected by the perfect franchise to help him achieve what he has so far. Just imagine Josh with the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals early in his career. They would have ruined him. At least until he was able to get away from that franchise. Even then, he may have been too broken by those franchises. All this to say, great job, Beane. Keep it up!

On a side note: I feel if Beane was part of the 2017 draft, he would have drafted Mahomes, if he was available during our pick. JMO.

Imagine if Allen went to a terribly dysfunctional organization with a terrible reputation and recent history of 15+ years of incompetence?

 

I can’t imagine it either

[HerdMenatlity1]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Imagine if Allen went to a terribly dysfunctional organization with a terrible reputation and recent history of 15+ years of incompetence?

 

I can’t imagine it either

I wrote "

This thread brings to mind how so many here say Beane is lucky he has Allen. "If Allen were injured, we would win 4-5 games." is what I read here. Well, duh. That would be the case for any team that loses a QB of that caliber. I believe Allan realizes how lucky he was that he wasn't drafted by the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals that year. It's not surprising to see these QBs perform better when they leave those crap franchises. Allen had a lot of things to work on when he entered the league, and he got selected by the perfect franchise to help him achieve what he has so far. Just imagine Josh with the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals early in his career. They would have ruined him. At least until he was able to get away from that franchise. Even then, he may have been too broken by those franchises. All this to say, great job, Beane. Keep it up!

On a side note: I feel if Beane was part of the 2017 draft, he would have drafted Mahomes, if he was available during our pick. JMO."

 

Your reply has the feel of someone who was triggered by the statement in bold. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong. If so, my apologies. Your reply aside, do you think Allen does as well if he is drafted by the franchises I mentioned? 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

I wrote "

This thread brings to mind how so many here say Beane is lucky he has Allen. "If Allen were injured, we would win 4-5 games." is what I read here. Well, duh. That would be the case for any team that loses a QB of that caliber. I believe Allan realizes how lucky he was that he wasn't drafted by the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals that year. It's not surprising to see these QBs perform better when they leave those crap franchises. Allen had a lot of things to work on when he entered the league, and he got selected by the perfect franchise to help him achieve what he has so far. Just imagine Josh with the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals early in his career. They would have ruined him. At least until he was able to get away from that franchise. Even then, he may have been too broken by those franchises. All this to say, great job, Beane. Keep it up!

On a side note: I feel if Beane was part of the 2017 draft, he would have drafted Mahomes, if he was available during our pick. JMO."

 

Your reply has the feel of someone who was triggered by the statement in bold. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong. If so, my apologies. Your reply aside, do you think Allen does as well if he is drafted by the franchises I mentioned? 

yes 100%

[HerdMenatlity1]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

yes 100%

Yes, to my question that Allen would have done as well?

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

I wrote "

This thread brings to mind how so many here say Beane is lucky he has Allen. "If Allen were injured, we would win 4-5 games." is what I read here. Well, duh. That would be the case for any team that loses a QB of that caliber. I believe Allan realizes how lucky he was that he wasn't drafted by the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals that year. It's not surprising to see these QBs perform better when they leave those crap franchises. Allen had a lot of things to work on when he entered the league, and he got selected by the perfect franchise to help him achieve what he has so far. Just imagine Josh with the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals early in his career. They would have ruined him. At least until he was able to get away from that franchise. Even then, he may have been too broken by those franchises. All this to say, great job, Beane. Keep it up!

On a side note: I feel if Beane was part of the 2017 draft, he would have drafted Mahomes, if he was available during our pick. JMO."

 

Your reply has the feel of someone who was triggered by the statement in bold. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong. If so, my apologies. Your reply aside, do you think Allen does as well if he is drafted by the franchises I mentioned? 

Triggered?

 

you wrote “imagine Allen with the Jets, Browns and Cardinals” as if the 2000-2017 Bills were any different.

 

We had a 17 year playoff drought. We were on an HC and QB carousel. During that time, the Jets and Cardinals, while both being relatively bad, were winning playoff games, going to conference championships and in the Cardinals case, almost winning a Super Bowl.

What evidence is there that the Bills were a better organization than those two?

 

The only evidence is what happened after the Bills drafted the right QB who is a future HoFer in 2018 and those two teams did not.

 

Point blank, period.

[Sweats]

16 hours ago, Another Fan said:

Since I don't follow college football much I'm really not much interested in the draft.  I mean and I remember thinking EJ Manuel was a good choice at the time.  So yeah that was where I kind of stopped following all together and making judgments based on the picks.

 

Still the Bills were in the market for a QB that draft and it was even at the time one thought of as one of the hottest drafts for QB's ever.  It was the last draft I remember watching most the 1st round of.  

 

 

 

 

...........what the hell is wrong with you?!?

[HerdMenatlity1]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Triggered?

 

you wrote “imagine Allen with the Jets, Browns and Cardinals” as if the 2000-2017 Bills were any different.

 

We had a 17 year playoff drought. We were on an HC and QB carousel. During that time, the Jets and Cardinals, while both being relatively bad, were winning playoff games, going to conference championships and in the Cardinals case, almost winning a Super Bowl.

What evidence is there that the Bills were a better organization than those two?

 

The only evidence is what happened after the Bills drafted the right QB who is a future HoFer in 2018 and those two teams did not.

 

Point blank, period.

Maybe I wasn't making my point clear enough. So here goes: And... this regime developed him to what he is now. Point blank, period. That is not something you should just "forget". Do you think it's a coincidence that Baker is way more successful with the Bucs than with the Browns? I didn't know there were Josh Allen sunglasses being sold. Where can I get a pair? How much did they cost you? 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

Yes, to my question that Allen would have done as well?

i mean you think a team w Josh Allen, Nick Chubb, and Myles Garrett is going to be bad or something?

you think he wouldn't have torn up the AFCE same way he is now if he was throwing to Garrett Wilson

[HerdMenatlity1]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

i mean you think a team w Josh Allen, Nick Chubb, and Myles Garrett is going to be bad or something?

you think he wouldn't have torn up the AFCE same way he is now if he was throwing to Garrett Wilson

They were bad with Baker and all he’s done is win 2 straight nfcs titles with the Bucs.  They’ve shown they don’t know how to develop qbs. It’s right in your face but you refuse to see it. Same with the Jets and the cardinals. I get though…see below. 

Edited September 25 by HerdMenatlity1

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

They were bad with Baker and all he’s done is win 2 straight nfcs titles with the Bucs.  They’ve shown they don’t know how to develop qbs. It’s right in your face but you refuse to see it. Same with the Jets and the cardinals. I get though…see below. 

They won a playoff game with Baker, their first since 1995 lol. Do you think that’s because they became less dysfunctional that year?

 

perspective is really sorely lacking.

Edited September 25 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

They were bad with Baker and all he’s done is win 2 straight nfcs titles with the Bucs.  They’ve shown they don’t know how to develop qbs. It’s right in your face but you refuse to see it. Same with the Jets and the cardinals. I get though…see below. 

lol you realize the Bucs had won the SB two yrs prior and were coming off back to back division titles

perspective indeed

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, HerdMenatlity1 said:

I believe Allan realizes how lucky he was that he wasn't drafted by the Jets, Browns, or Cardinals that year. It's not surprising to see these QBs perform better when they leave those crap franchises.

 

Yeah imagine being Daniel Jones drafted to the Giants for example. You have awful OL play, Brian Daboll as your coach, JAGs at WR. Thankfully Allen was drafted into a better situation than that.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

i mean you think a team w Josh Allen, Nick Chubb, and Myles Garrett is going to be bad or something?

you think he wouldn't have torn up the AFCE same way he is now if he was throwing to Garrett Wilson

 

If Josh Allen is their Quarterback they don't have Garrett Wilson. Cos they are never bad enough to be in position to draft him. Which kind of proves your point.

 

I do think the Browns might still have been dysfunctional though. I mean Baker was their best QB since re-entry to the league, and by a long way, and they kicked him to the curb. I am not saying they'd have done that with Josh but I do think that owner is like an inverse-Midas. He could touch gold and turn it into ash.

[BillsFanForever19]

9 hours ago, FireChans said:

Lamar has a far better chance than Josh to make it if they both retired tomorrow.

 

3x AP1, 2x MVP, and has the career high passer rating in league history.

 

Not going to be a popular opinion, but an accurate one.

 

Either way, I think a QB with only an 8 year career with neither a Super Bowl or even a Conference Championship would be a tough sell to voters.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

15 hours ago, Dan Darragh said:

Yeh, I used to be a lawyer too but I got over it.

Well, in fairness, your point was internally inconsistent. 

[BillsFanForever19]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am fine the Bills waiting on receiver in round 1 in 2026 as long as they really attack it in 2027. And that might mean being willing to go right up the draft board. The sort of move I know you advocated in the 2024 draft. 

 

Is the 2027 WR Draft Class considered an all time great class bc it's deep or just because of Jeremiah Smith and Ryan Williams at the top?

 

Because if it's just because of them, that really doesn't matter for us. Unless something catastrophic were to happen to us, it would play out just like the 2024 Draft. Those guys are going in an area that will not be feasible for us to get to.

 

Even if we were able to put together a deal that was fair to get there, no shot that a team wouldn't just stay pat and select the player (like they did with MHJ and Nabers in 2024) or be willing to move that far down the board.

 

Teams willing to move out for someone to select that level of a prospect require a kind of trade that eclipses to greatly eclipses the value chart and also involves them not moving too far from where they are. See Travis Hunter this year and some of the reported offers to the Cardinals and Giants that were turned down in 2024.

Edited September 26 by BillsFanForever19

[ticketssince61]

11 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Yeah imagine had they taken Saquon 1st overall and Josh 4th overall. It could have been one of best offenses ever assuming they were able to develop Josh.

 

That would be scary but that's what makes them the Browns!

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

If Josh Allen is their Quarterback they don't have Garrett Wilson. Cos they are never bad enough to be in position to draft him. Which kind of proves your point.

 

Yeah it is kind of impossible to play the "what if Josh Allen had this roster?" game, because him being with that team since 2018 would mean their roster would be totally different. Since drafting Allen, Beane has only owned one pick inside of the top 20. And that trickles down to every round in the draft. Some teams get to pick #5 and #37 with their first two picks. For those teams their 2nd pick might fall in the same tier as our 1st pick. And we've had that disadvantage for 6 years now so there is a snowball effect. It is not easy to find elite talent in that area of the draft, although you think Beane would have gotten one just by pure luck by now.

 

The Chiefs are the only real comparison to our perennial draft position and their talent has dropped off significantly over the years. The Ravens had a top 15 pick in 2022 and got Kyle Hamilton with it. The Eagles have had three top 10 picks since 2020 and came away with Devonta Smith (elite #2), Jordan Davis (meh), and Jalen Carter (elite). The Bengals got Chase in the top 5. These are opportunities that we just haven't had.

 

On the flip side, I've said this before but having an elite franchise QB creates a compound positive effect that is impossible to quantify. It creates stability in the organization which means the coaches don't get fired, so every new player is joining a very well established culture and system. You get to stop spending draft picks on the QB position. In training camp you aren't splitting reps, the starting offense is the starting offense and they get all of the reps together. You get first dibs at reclamation projects that are looking to rebuild their image with a good team, especially on offense. There are certain free agents and tradeable players every year that only a few teams have a chance at getting and you're one of them. Your QB's mere presence on the field elevates everyone around him which makes their development track easier. All of these positive effects compound over the 10+ years that you have that QB.

 

So if the Browns had drafted Josh Allen 1st overall I 100% believe they would be a Super Bowl contender right now. Hue Jackson probably would have still been fired after 2018 and I have no doubt Kevin Stefanski could have had the same success or more with Allen that McDermott has had. They wouldn't have wasted all those draft picks and money on Watson so if anything their roster today would be significantly better even after accounting for lower draft picks every year. They might be considered a super team by now honestly.

 

Edited September 26 by HappyDays

[Buffalo716]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah it is kind of impossible to play the "what if Josh Allen had this roster?" game, because him being with that team since 2018 would mean their roster would be totally different. Since drafting Allen, Beane has only owned one pick inside of the top 20. And that trickles down to every round in the draft. Some teams get to pick #5 and #37 with their first two picks. For those teams their 2nd pick might fall in the same tier as our 1st pick. And we've had that disadvantage for 6 years now so there is a snowball effect. It is not easy to find elite talent in that area of the draft, although you think Beane would have gotten one just by pure luck by now.

 

The Chiefs are the only real comparison to our perennial draft position and their talent has dropped off significantly over the years. The Ravens had a top 15 pick in 2022 and got Kyle Hamilton with it. The Eagles have had three top 10 picks since 2020 and came away with Devonta Smith (elite #2), Jordan Davis (meh), and Jalen Carter (elite). The Bengals got Chase in the top 5. These are opportunities that we just haven't had.

 

On the flip side, I've said this before but having an elite franchise QB creates a compound positive effect that is impossible to quantify. It creates stability in the organization which means the coaches don't get fired, so every new player is joining a very well established culture and system. You get to stop spending draft picks on the QB position. In training camp you aren't splitting reps, the starting offense is the starting offense and they get all of the reps together. You get first dibs at reclamation projects that are looking to rebuild their image with a good team, especially on offense. There are certain free agents and tradeable players every year that only a few teams have a chance at getting and you're one of them. Your QB's mere presence on the field elevates everyone around him which makes their development track easier. All of these positive effects compound over the 10+ years that you have that QB.

 

So if the Browns had drafted Josh Allen 1st overall I 100% believe they would be a Super Bowl contender right now. Hue Jackson probably would have still been fired after 2018 and I have no doubt Kevin Stefanski could have had the same success or more with Allen that McDermott has had. They wouldn't have wasted all those draft picks and money on Watson so if anything their roster today would be significantly better even after accounting for lower draft picks every year. They might be considered a super team by now honestly.

 

 

They haven't had any stability that would have developed Josh consistently over the first three to five formative years.. they have no culture... They haven't had consistent coaching 

 

Nothing that shows they could correct flaws.. remember Baker was a prospect with a lot of game experience and his flaws were minimal for a rookie prospect 

 

He needed minimal development.. he just needed steadiness.. they couldn't even give him steadiness 

 

No I have zero belief that the browns would have been able to develop Josh Allen to the point where they are super bowl contenders while correcting his flaws.. I don't believe it at all

 

Just like the Jets.. look at the roster they put around Sam darnold the year 3 the kid they traded up to make their franchise quarterback.. Jamison crowder was their number one wide receiver hahaha

 

By that time we gave Allen diggs and brown and Beasley ..

 

Could the Ravens have developed Josh Allen? Absolutely 

 

I have zero Faith the browns would have.. because they had a ready-made prospect and they couldn't even stay the ship.. I have zero doubt they could have developed somebody who needed years of development

 

Baker came in a 29 touchdown quarterback a rookie record and they still couldn't right the ship... I have zero Faith they could have developed Josh Allen 

 

If they thought they could have developed him they would have drafted him because all the pundits believed he had the highest ceiling... But he needed tons of development.. which sometimes never happens... They obviously didn't think they could develop him and neither did jets 

Edited September 26 by Buffalo716