McDermott not in Top 10 of NFL coaches per PFF.

[FireChans]

Just now, MJS said:

And there will be plenty of receipts if the Bills win a superbowl with McDermott, too.

Fingers crossed!

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Fingers crossed!

I think you only do that for a sure thing on offense.  Shannahan and Mcvay would really be the only ones worth it imo.  Too big of a gamble for a first time head coach.  Way more to HC than play calling.  Idk how willing Pegula would be in making a move of that nature.  The systemic change in culture, the draft capital and money required would be too rich imo.  Though another year not making it to the final Sunday I would be open to drastic moves.  Is Mcdermott Dungy or Ried or is he Marty Shottenhimer? 

[Augie]

43 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I told you I wasn't going to make you see the light. You have accepted McDermott in your heart and there's nothing anyone can say to change it. 

 

Here’s the thing, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, and I don’t know why you would want mine to see your “light.” I think McD gives us our best chance to win a SB right now, but I’m willing to change my view given new information. I am the open and flexible one between the two of us.  You are just a hater, and it has gotten old and very tiresome.  

[FireChans]

18 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Here’s the thing, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, and I don’t know why you would want mine to see your “light.” I think McD gives us our best chance to win a SB right now, but I’m willing to change my view given new information. I am the open and flexible one between the two of us.  You are just a hater, and it has gotten old and very tiresome.  

Are you under the impression I have wanted McDermott fired for a decade? I thought he did well in 2023. I engaged in maybe pursuing BB as the only active coach that I would take over McD after the 2023 season on that cycle, but that was it.

 

I said it wasn't McD's fault he had AJ Klein out there to cover Kelce. 

 

However, in 2024, his defense was still mediocre and our season still ended at the hands of KC after an MVP year by our QB, for the fourth time, and that was the final straw. 

 

I was willing to change my view given new information, and I did. That doesn't make me inflexible or a hater.

 

I'm hopeful that he will be fired if he goes 0-5 vs KC because to me its criminal to run it back for a 6th straight time, but ultimately, he probably won't lose his job until its far too late. I've made my peace with that. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are you under the impression I have wanted McDermott fired for a decade? I thought he did well in 2023. I engaged in maybe pursuing BB as the only active coach that I would take over McD after the 2023 season on that cycle, but that was it.

 

I said it wasn't McD's fault he had AJ Klein out there to cover Kelce. 

 

However, in 2024, his defense was still mediocre and our season still ended at the hands of KC after an MVP year by our QB, for the fourth time, and that was the final straw. 

 

I was willing to change my view given new information, and I did. That doesn't make me inflexible or a hater.

 

I'm hopeful that he will be fired if he goes 0-5 vs KC because to me its criminal to run it back for a 6th straight time, but ultimately, he probably won't lose his job until its far too late. I've made my peace with that. 

 

I guess I’m glad you found peace. 

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, Gregg said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/football/bills-news-sean-mcdermott-s-coaching-blamed-for-playoff-failures-as-josh-allen-becomes-nfl-s-charles-barkley/ar-AA1HPnpz?ocid=BingNewsSerp

 

Why am I not surprised that Doug Whaley would blame for the Bills struggles against KC in the playoffs on Sean McDermott?

 

 

10 hours ago, FireChans said:

It's not me trying to be black and white, it's just a question to establish common ground. 

 

First of all, McDermott's record without Allen is actually 10-11. Which is .477. 

 

But the point is, do you think McD is as good or better of a coach than BB? 

 

I don't. I don't even think he's close. I think BB is the greatest coach of all time. I think his mastery of the defensive side of the ball, and his ability to be tactically nuanced (see 2019 SB, among others), as well as strategically (transitioning from a vertical offense to twin TE sets to an offense featuring the slot to a power running team over a 12 year span based on his personnel) is all-time. 

 

Now if you don't think BB is the greatest coach ever and you think McDermott could be, that's fine. I disagree.

 

If you think BB is the greatest coach ever and you don't think McDermott is, then I would ask if a MUCH BETTER coach has a basically mediocre record without his incredible QB, why do you think a MUCH WORSE (relatively) coach wouldn't? What does McDermott do to make you think he's a .600+ coach without Josh? 

 

Your answer can be "I don't know because we don't know." That's fine.

 

My answer is "McDermott is probably not better than the greatest HC of all time and thus would also probably have a mediocre W/L or worse without his franchise QB." 

 

And the reason I make this diversion is because the point I am trying to prove is that "the head coach doesn't matter as much as the QB." It never has. It hasn't with the greatest coach ever, which you agreed with. Brady was the engine for excellence in NE. The second he left, it dried up. When he went to the Bucs, BAM, they are back in the playoffs every year competing for Super Bowls. 

 

Peyton missed a season in Indy and they went from a double digit win team to picking first overall. When he went to Denver, they went from a fringe WC team at .500 to winning the division every season. 

 

I'm not sure you can find a top 3ish QB whose HC got fired and the franchise crumbled. To my knowledge, its never happened, at least in the modern era. 

 

There are lots of examples of teams knocking on the door of contending for Super Bowls who fired their HC or coordinators and that got them over the hump. 

 

So in conclusion, I think the odds of firing McD and AT LEAST being in the same stratosphere as we are today is VERY VERY high. I think the odds we win a SB are better than they are now. I think the odds of firing McD and going back to the drought is effectively 0. 

 

"Lots of examples"?   I think that there might be just two in the last 25 years:  the 2002 Tampa Bay Bucs and maybe the 2016 Denver Broncos.   What other ones?  Most of the Super Bowl winners had coaches who had been successful for a season or more before they won a Super Bowl.   A few of the Super Bowl winners had failed to make the playoffs for a season or more before winning the SB.

[Gregg]

15 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Here’s the thing, I’m not trying to convince you of anything, and I don’t know why you would want mine to see your “light.” I think McD gives us our best chance to win a SB right now, but I’m willing to change my view given new information. I am the open and flexible one between the two of us.  You are just a hater, and it has gotten old and very tiresome.  

 

He has been here what 8 or 9 years. The playoffs are like ground hog day with McDermott. He is a good coach. I think most would admit that. He along with Beane get a ton of credit for turning the organization around from a loser to a winning one. However, it is also fair that he takes his share of the blame for the playoff failures. After all this time I could understand if some Bills fans (me included) want to move on from him. I don't know if he is the right coach to bring a Lombardi to WNY.

[SoTier]

19 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

He has been here what 8 or 9 years. The playoffs are like ground hog day with McDermott. He is a good coach. I think most would admit that. He along with Beane get a ton of credit for turning the organization around from a loser to a winning one. However, it is also fair that he takes his share of the blame for the playoff failures. After all this time I could understand if some Bills fans (me included) want to move on from him. I don't know if he is the right coach to bring a Lombardi to WNY.

 

I haven't reached the point of wanting to move on from McDermott, especially since 99% of the critics don't offer up any realistic candidates as a replacement, ie a proven HC who is available and not named Belichick or Shanahan.

[Augie]

 

I know we have a lot of people who are still sick about 13 seconds. I get that, it was horrible and painful.

 

BUT….Some of the same people who still can’t forgive 13 seconds have suggested Kyle Shanahan as a successor to McD. Shanahan is the guy who was up 28-3 with 2:25 left in the 3rd quarter of the Super Bowl and couldn’t/wouldn’t run the clock out as the OC. He also lost a double digit 4th quarter lead to lose a SB as a HC. 

 

I would suggest Shanahan has shown extended periods of befuddlement that was all on him, where McD was let down by assistants over a brief series of plays. How do you give Shanahan a pass and suggest hiring him while still hating on McD for his unforgivable offense? 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/kyle-shanahan-blown-lead-super-bowl-falcons-chiefs/e554be074afc01fda0f302cc

 

.

Edited July 3 by Augie

[Gregg]

12 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I haven't reached the point of wanting to move on from McDermott, especially since 99% of the critics don't offer up any realistic candidates as a replacement, ie a proven HC who is available and not named Belichick or Shanahan.

 

Any realistic candidates not named Belichick or Shanahan would be the OC's/DC's that are the hot candidates of a HC job that come up every single year. Who that is right now I have no idea. Or the Bills could have the option of looking at coaches in college football as well.

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Any realistic candidates not named Belichick or Shanahan would be the OC's/DC's that are the hot candidates of a HC job that come up every single year. Who that is right now I have no idea. Or the Bills could have the option of looking at coaches in college football as well.

 

So, you’re willing to hope and pray that a coordinator will be able to make a seamless transition to HC. That is a huge change in responsibilities and skill sets, and a very significant gamble. We know McD is a very good leader of men. So, there is that. 

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

So, you’re willing to hope and pray that a coordinator will be able to make a seamless transition to HC. That is a huge change in responsibilities and skill sets, and a very significant gamble. We know McD is a very good leader of men. So, there is that. 

 

That is the tough part. There is no guarantee the next HC would be better than McDermott. If Sean were fired, he would be unemployed for about 5 seconds. At the same time how, many years does he get to bring a championship to Buffalo. Allen isn't going to be playing at an elite level forever. The Eagles eventually moved on from Reid when he couldn't win a championship, and he had more success there then Sean has had in Buffalo. 

[Yobogoya!]

6 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

That is the tough part. There is no guarantee the next HC would be better than McDermott. If Sean were fired, he would be unemployed for about 5 seconds. At the same time how, many years does he get to bring a championship to Buffalo. Allen isn't going to be playing at an elite level forever. The Eagles eventually moved on from Reid when he couldn't win a championship, and he had more success there then Sean has had in Buffalo. 

 

The Eagles didn't just move on for not winning a championship with Reid-- I think a lot of people forget the circumstances there.

 

They moved on after they spent big in a 2011 off-season where they were called the "dream team", and then proceeded to miss the playoffs and win only 8 games. This was followed by a 2012 season which was a complete implosion: they won 4 games that year and finished with two QB's on their active roster: a washed up Mike Vick and... Trent Edwards. Most coaches no matter how good they are, will be fired after two seasons of that nature when the QB situation is in flux and you're prime for a rebuild. 

 

The Bills will always be likely to keep McDermott if he maintains a stranglehold on the division with double digit wins and Josh as a healthy active starter, even if the playoff success is middling. But if we have a disaster-type season like the 2012 Eagles did? I think it shouldn't even be a question to move on. 

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

That is the tough part. There is no guarantee the next HC would be better than McDermott. If Sean were fired, he would be unemployed for about 5 seconds. At the same time how, many years does he get to bring a championship to Buffalo. Allen isn't going to be playing at an elite level forever. The Eagles eventually moved on from Reid when he couldn't win a championship, and he had more success there then Sean has had in Buffalo. 

 

….and Reid has been winning Super Bowls about every other year since……

 

Very good NFL head coaches do not grow on trees. 

 

See my post above about Shanahan and the people who suggest him as a replacement. I think some people magnify our own failings to a great extent, and never fully put it into perspective. Shanahan may be an “offensive genius”, but he couldn’t run the clock out as OC up 28-3  in a SB with a couple minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Why do Bills fans just ignore that? Because it didn’t happen to US? He was up 10 in the 4th quarter of a SB as HC, and lost. Some will argue that “at least he was in a SB!”, but I will counter that he was responsible for losing both times. 

 

We can be unfairly harsh to our own, sometimes. 

[Royale with Cheese]

17 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think McDermott's actually a good coach. I don't think he's a disaster. I think he'd be a great hire for a team like Carolina if he did ever get fired.

 

I just don't think he's a difference-maker. 

 

And at this point, I am just saving receipts in case the unthinkable happens and we win a Super Bowl immediately with a new HC in 2026. I have spent enough time in this thread that I should be able to find it immediately. 

“Saving receipts” lol

Why?  
 

You say you want to be wrong or fingers crossed that McDermott wins it…but at the same time saving receipts.  The “I told you so” desire is incredibly strong here.  Its that important to you.

[Royale with Cheese]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

What do you mean? These are my takes.

 

QBs matter way more than coaches. We have maybe the best QB in football, thus we are are a very good team.

 

If we fired McD and replaced him with an average coach, I think its very likely nothing gets worse from where we are now, a team that is very good, in large part because we have a great QB. 

 

Sometimes, coaching changes can elevate a very good team into a Super Bowl team. 

 

These are all very congruent takes if you stop to think for a second. 

I don't know if you are aware, but divisions titles are based on overall wins....of the teams in the division.

 

Ergo, you can win 8 games and win the division as long as the rest of the division wins no more than 7.

 

Seeing as the Jets have a .290 winning percentage since 2020, the Pats have a .390 winning percentage and the Dolphins have a .559, no I'm really not shocked that averaging double digit wins with an elite QB (like I said, bare minimum coaching expectation) when the second best team in your division can barely manage .500 over that span is enough to win the division.

 

FWIW, I wasn't super impressed when Brady and BB lorded over their division for 20 years or when Mahomes and co. do it now. In a league where there's barely 12-15 QBs worth a damn, and even 8-10 of those are a tier below those top 3 or 4 guys, when you have those top 3 or 4 guys, you are expected to win your division. Half the teams in your division will statistically not even have a franchise QB, and if you have an elite QB, the odds of another one being in your division is very small. 

 Geezus dude.

You say coaching doesn’t matter which is why you have Adam Gase being as successful as McDermott…its only the QB that matters.

 

But then state the 2015 Broncos lost their QB and if they had Del Rio/Fox would have been coaching, they would have won 8 games.  So obviously that means you think Kubiak was the difference.  But you want to be so right that you won’t say coaching was the difference, the “stars aligned.”  Even after you clearly state Del Rio/Fox wouldn’t have done as good a job.  
 

Augie is right, its a pointless exercise to continue this.

[Royale with Cheese]

17 hours ago, MJS said:

And there will be plenty of receipts if the Bills win a superbowl with McDermott, too.

 

If there is a receipt that needs to be saved, its the Adam Gase and Nate Hackett would be as successful as McDermott in Buffalo.

That's gold Jerry....gold!

[Gregg]

34 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

….and Reid has been winning Super Bowls about every other year since……

 

Very good NFL head coaches do not grow on trees. 

 

See my post above about Shanahan and the people who suggest him as a replacement. I think some people magnify our own failings to a great extent, and never fully put it into perspective. Shanahan may be an “offensive genius”, but he couldn’t run the clock out as OC up 28-3  in a SB with a couple minutes left in the 3rd quarter. Why do Bills fans just ignore that? Because it didn’t happen to US? He was up 10 in the 4th quarter of a SB as HC, and lost. Some will argue that “at least he was in a SB!”, but I will counter that he was responsible for losing both times. 

 

We can be unfairly harsh to our own, sometimes. 

 

Look how long it took Reid before he finally won a Super Bowl. The Bills can't wait that long if they want to win one with Allen. He will be 30 soon. Still has plenty of time but the clock is ticking. I will say it again that McDermott is a good coach who turned the Bills around from a losing organization to a winning one. But I have my doubts he will win a championship here.

[SoTier]

45 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Any realistic candidates not named Belichick or Shanahan would be the OC's/DC's that are the hot candidates of a HC job that come up every single year. Who that is right now I have no idea. Or the Bills could have the option of looking at coaches in college football as well.

 

That's exactly my point.   I'm a retired computer programmer, so I'm not fixing what's not broke unless the fix is a significant improvement over what's working now.   

 

Many, if not most first time HCs, aren't nearly as brilliant in their first stints as HCs as they were coordinators.  McDermott is one of the few who managed to take a previous year's non-playoff team to the playoffs in his first year without adding a top notch QB that season.

 

College football coaches have failed miserably in their first stints as NFL HCs.  Nick Saban lasted 2 seasons in Miami.  Chip Kelly lasted 2+ seasons in Philadelphia.  Urban Meyer lasted 13 games.   The only college HCs who have had success in the NFL in the last 25 years had previously been NFL HCs: Peter Carroll and Jim Harbaugh.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

That's exactly my point.   I'm a retired computer programmer, so I'm not fixing what's not broke unless the fix is a significant improvement over what's working now.   

 

Many, if not most first time HCs, aren't nearly as brilliant in their first stints as HCs as they were coordinators.  McDermott is one of the few who managed to take a previous year's non-playoff team to the playoffs in his first year without adding a top notch QB that season.

 

College football coaches have failed miserably in their first stints as NFL HCs.  Nick Saban lasted 2 seasons in Miami.  Chip Kelly lasted 2+ seasons in Philadelphia.  Urban Meyer lasted 13 games.   The only college HCs who have had success in the NFL in the last 25 years had previously been NFL HCs: Peter Carroll and Jim Harbaugh.

 

Harbaugh was successful in San Fran as well when he hadn't been an NFL HC before. So he is an example I think of college coach done well but with a strong NFL background. 

 

Carroll was an NFL HC, turned college HC, turned NFL HC again. I don't count him as a college coach converts to NFL success story.