Newsweek F*cks America...

[stuckincincy]

Hmm.  A news magazine prints an article that contains erroneous information from a government official who now states (according to this morning's radio news) that he can't remember where he heard the information.  A riot ensures, and people die.

 

A bunch of government agencies produce a bunch of documents that contain erroneous information.  Based on that, an invasion occurs, 1600+ American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis die.

 

What's the difference?  We hold news magazines to a higher standard than the government of the most powerful country on earth?  Wow.

So, you're right, where IS the outrage?

337573[/snapback]

 

 

Well, in 1998 Clinton sought and obtained permission form Congress to wage war on Saddam if necessary. Certainly you are familiar with the many statements by Kerry, Gore, Kennedy etc. about the presence of WMD in Iraq after 9/11. All predicated by the analysis performed by the eight years of the Clinton administration. Are you telling me that the Bush adm., Kerry et al were the victim of faulty information provided by the Clinton administration?

[RuntheDamnBall]

Look, during WWII tha American Government censored to press to ensure it wasn't aiding and abetting the enemy. If youa sk me, that was the government's one huge mistake in the Vietnam Era and it's being repeated today. They should have taken the Gulf War or WWII approach to the media this time around. Controlled access.

338385[/snapback]

I think we are probably, as Darin has suggested before, less able to deal with the day-to-day struggles of war, where you win some and you lose some but you keep slogging on, because it surrounds us in a way via the media in a way it didn't in 1943. By the same token, our lives are not much different than they were even before 9/11 (marginally so, but not on a daily basis for most of us). The idea of sacrifice is non-existent. The thing is that we are not dealing with 3 networks and radio here. It's infinitely different than 1991 even. The overexposure is limitless, because the possibilities of making money via this overexposure are limitless. Information will get out there, if only because someone with the money and the story to tell is going to tell it. Controlled access is out the window.

[RuntheDamnBall]

The source may be responsible, but if he did lie, it was the Newsweek editorial staff's job to catch the lie before it made it to press.

338400[/snapback]

So then, of what benefit was it to him to lie in the first place?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

So then, of what benefit was it to him to lie in the first place?

338408[/snapback]

 

Perhaps he had an axe to grind. Maybe it was a woman and it was "that time of the month." I don't know. Some people just like to stir up sh--. Whatever the reason, Newsweek should have caught it and either didn't care or didn't want to believe their source could be wrong.

[Ghost of BiB]

Is it totally beyond belief that the story was true and that Newsweek is backing off at the request of the government?

 

Considering how many people here are calling for reinstituting full-fledged censorship of the media, it wouldn't be totally out of the question for something like that to occur, would it?

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One more time:

 

Whether it was true, or not...a lot of people, especially the left aisle, want a "Hearts and Minds" campaign run. "Change the reasons people become terrorists" "Kumbaya", etc.

 

Little incidents such as this set back any progress that was made almost to sqaure one, or worse. Media HAS to be sensitive to these things. How many of any of you give a rat's ass about a Qeran being flushed? Is this important news that will affect your life? Well, Abdhul the goat farmer has an entirely different concept. I can only imagine what CENTCOM's information operations people are thinking right now. I can pretty well guarantee it's not about re-newing their NEWSWEEK subscriptions.

[stuckincincy]

Many tens of thousands of Americans were involved in the Manhatten Project during WWII. Construction folks. Equipment operators. Cafeteria workers...and so on. Yet no leaks. They understood that there was a terrible enemy afoot.

 

Oh, I forgot - this is the Age of the Worth of the Individual, superior in every respect to those anachronistic fools. - my bad.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Perhaps he had an axe to grind. Maybe it was a woman and it was "that time of the month." I don't know.

338420[/snapback]

Precisely, you don't know. None of us know if it's possible this was true. What you're offering up are some pretty lame reasons. I'm just suspicious someone would concoct this story for no good reason.

Whether it was true, or not...a lot of people, especially the left aisle, want a "Hearts and Minds" campaign run. "Change the reasons people become terrorists" "Kumbaya", etc.

 

Little incidents such as this set back any progress that was made almost to sqaure one, or worse. Media HAS to be sensitive to these things. How many of any of you give a rat's ass about a Qeran being flushed? Is this important news that will affect your life? Well, Abdhul the goat farmer has an entirely different concept. I can only imagine what CENTCOM's information operations people are thinking right now. I can pretty well guarantee it's not about re-newing their NEWSWEEK subscriptions.

338442[/snapback]

I think the president has been one of the people running the "hearts and minds" campaign so I fail to see your point there. Your misguided attempts to discuss "real" Muslims like "Abdhul the goat farmer," who reads the "Queran," are as indicative of our media-influenced (lack of) understanding of the culture and religion as this story.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Many tens of thousands of Americans were involved in the Manhatten Project during WWII. Construction folks. Equipment operators. Cafeteria workers...and so on. Yet no leaks. They understood that there was a terrible enemy afoot.

 

Oh, I forgot - this is the Age of the Worth of the Individual, superior in every respect to those anachronistic fools. - my bad.

338452[/snapback]

I don't think we have a lot more access to behind-the-scenes weapons manufacture than we did back then. Maybe I'm just not searching for it. But what has this to do with the way the government deals, or doesn't, with its detainees?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Many tens of thousands of Americans were involved in the Manhatten Project during WWII. Construction folks. Equipment operators. Cafeteria workers...and so on. Yet no leaks.

338452[/snapback]

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Precisely, you don't know.  None of us know if it's possible this was true.  What you're offering up are some pretty lame reasons.  I'm just suspicious someone would concoct this story for no good reason.

 

338457[/snapback]

 

I'd say that since Newsweek is dropping their source like a hot potato and the source itself came out and saud it was misquoted that we can assume it was concocted.

[Ghost of BiB]

I think the president has been one of the people running the "hearts and minds" campaign so I fail to see your point there. Your misguided attempts to discuss "real" Muslims like "Abdhul the goat farmer," who reads the "Queran," are as indicative of our media-influenced (lack of) understanding of the culture and religion as this story

.

 

As someone who has spent a lot of time eating goat with Abdul in Afghanistan, I don't think you have the slightest idea of what I know about these people or the situation.

[RuntheDamnBall]

.

 

As someone who has spent a lot of time eating goat with Abdul in Afghanistan, I don't think you have the slightest idea of what I know about these people or the situation.

338485[/snapback]

You're probably right about that. But then you also know that life for a Muslim who is a goat farmer in Afghanistan can be incredibly different from life for many other Muslims. My point is the generalization does nothing for the big picture, especially for people who have a pretty singular impression of a vast and diverse region and people.

[aussiew]

Maybe it was a woman and it was "that time of the month."

 

[Kelly the Dog]

Isikoff is a slimy but pretty decent reporter, as far as investigative reporters go. Hardly a liberal shill, he broke and practically spearheaded the Monica Lewinsky story against Clinton (thanks, Mike) as well as broke the Paula Jones story (or one of the first). Also, he said the Pentagon saw and approved the Qu'ran article before it was printed and it was 11 days before they said anything about it. There seems to be a lot of blame to go around and it is not all the liberal media.

 

From all I have read, here is what I think likely happened:

1. The incident happened (a big mistake). It's true.

2. The anonymous source mentioned it to Isikoff (a big mistake).

3. Isikoff didn't bother worrying about the aftermath (a big mistake)

4. Isikoff's editors at Newsweek didn't bother worrying about the aftermath (a big mistake)

5. The Pentagon read the article and didn't worry about the aftermath and allows it to be printed by not putting up a fuss (a big mistake)

6. The story is printed ( a big mistake) and all hell breaks loose and 16 or so people die (a big unnecessary tragedy)

7. The Government and Press and Public are outraged at the outrage by the Muslims and demand to know who the hell put that story out.

8. The anonymous source realizes he !@#$ed up and backtracks, not wanting to expose himself but never outright denies it.

9. Isikoff realizes he !@#$ed up and backtracks but never outright denies it's true.

10. Newsweek realizes it !@#$ed up and backtracks but never outright denies it's true.

[Ghost of BiB]

You're probably right about that.   But then you also know that life for a Muslim who is a goat farmer in Afghanistan can be incredibly different from life for many other Muslims.  My point is the generalization does nothing for the big picture, especially for people who have a pretty singular impression of a vast and diverse region and people.

338489[/snapback]

 

I was referring to that particular area. You handle Islam different in Indonesia that you do in Iran. Just as some places are more "Protestant" than others. Islam resembles to me, in that regard the Protestant faith. Just how many denominations are there? As for Muslims, there are probably 10 different levels of Sunni, or more. The damn wahabbi think part of the wahhabi is nuts.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

338491[/snapback]

[ExiledInIllinois]

The source may be responsible, but if he did lie, it was the Newsweek editorial staff's job to catch the lie before it made it to press.

338400[/snapback]

 

This is gonna sound crazy... What if the story was planted by the administration or pro-administration?

 

Why?

 

To make the press look worse and push through pro-censorship ideas.

 

I do admit, this would be out of AD "black helicopter" type scenarios... Yet, in politics, would be an easy play.

 

Plant something that you know is untrue, so you can later debunk it. Sure fits the way some do business?

 

Anyway... Exactly how do you flush such a large document down the toilet without it jamming up?

 

I have no doubt that some form of abuse took place.

 

It is their burden to prove otherwise because of such dubious credibilty (because of tactics used in the past).

[stuckincincy]

 

338469[/snapback]

 

 

 

It's encouraging to see that a fellow dressed in motley has graced this forum.

 

Don't be a stranger!!!

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

 

 

It's encouraging to see that a fellow dressed in motley has graced this forum.

 

Don't be a stranger!!!

338531[/snapback]

Two words: Klaus Fuchs. Stalin knew more about the Manhattan Project than Truman did.

 

But hey..."no leaks"...

[OnTheRocks]

anyone else find it ironic that this week as Newsweek goes through the battles of this story they chose to place George Washington on the current cover?

[Kelly the Dog]

Two words: Klaus Fuchs.  Stalin knew more about the Manhattan Project than Truman did.

 

But hey..."no leaks"... 

338544[/snapback]

I had an uncle, a physicist, who worked on the Manhattan Project. He passed away two years ago, you can look him up, his name was Lawrence Himmel and later was a professsor of Physics at Berkeley and Wayne State. He told us that he was never told what he was working on but that him and his team figured it out after awhile. Then he was ordered not to tell anyone anywhere for any reason, what he had done for 20 years. I was a little kid in the early to mid 60s when he finally told his parents, my grandparents. He kept his word for the full 20 years.

 

Later, when we were in Washington, DC during the 1980s he thought it would be cool to see some of his own notes that he had worked on four decades ago. I can't remember the building they were stored in, but the government wouldn't let him read his own notes unless he could prove a good reason for doing so.

[stuckincincy]

I had an uncle, a physicist, who worked on the Manhattan Project. He passed away two years ago, you can look him up, his name was Lawrence Himmel and later was a professsor of Physics at Berkeley and Wayne State. He told us that he was never told what he was working on but that him and his team figured it out after awhile. Then he was ordered not to tell anyone anywhere for any reason, what he had done for 20 years. I was a little kid in the early to mid 60s when he finally told his parents, my grandparents. He kept his word for the full 20 years.

 

Later, when we were in Washington, DC during the 1980s he thought it would be cool to see some of his own notes that he had worked on four decades ago. I can't remember the building they were stored in, but the government wouldn't let him read his own notes unless he could prove a good reason for doing so.

338550[/snapback]

 

A shot it the dark - did you have a relation named Al Himmel who was a prof at Buffalo State?

[Kelly the Dog]

A shot it the dark - did you have a relation named Al Himmel who was a prof at Buffalo State?

338587[/snapback]

Nope. Never heard of himmel.

[stuckincincy]

Nope. Never heard of himmel. 

338606[/snapback]

 

OK. I shared an office with him, and he instructed me in nuclear chemistry - hence the query.

 

BTW, he taught me a few social graces. They didn't include "woot" as a response to a simple inquiry.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I had an uncle, a physicist, who worked on the Manhattan Project. He passed away two years ago, you can look him up, his name was Lawrence Himmel and later was a professsor of Physics at Berkeley and Wayne State. He told us that he was never told what he was working on but that him and his team figured it out after awhile. Then he was ordered not to tell anyone anywhere for any reason, what he had done for 20 years. I was a little kid in the early to mid 60s when he finally told his parents, my grandparents. He kept his word for the full 20 years.

 

Later, when we were in Washington, DC during the 1980s he thought it would be cool to see some of his own notes that he had worked on four decades ago. I can't remember the building they were stored in, but the government wouldn't let him read his own notes unless he could prove a good reason for doing so.

338550[/snapback]

 

Was he actually at Los Alamos, or somewhere else? The Manhattan Project was a big project with lots of sites nation-wide, and it was not the least bit uncommon for people outside Los Alamos to not be told and not know what the hell they were working on...which led to some interesting near-events, like Oak Ridge nearly going critical because they didn't know how to store (or even that they were storing) enriched uranium.

[/dev/null]

Two words: Klaus Fuchs.  Stalin knew more about the Manhattan Project than Truman did.

 

But hey..."no leaks"... 

338544[/snapback]

 

heheheheheheheh, hey Beavis. he said Fuchs. heheheheheheh, that wuz cool

[Kelly the Dog]

Was he actually at Los Alamos, or somewhere else?  The Manhattan Project was a big project with lots of sites nation-wide, and it was not the least bit uncommon for people outside Los Alamos to not be told and not know what the hell they were working on...which led to some interesting near-events, like Oak Ridge nearly going critical because they didn't know how to store (or even that they were storing) enriched uranium.

338625[/snapback]

He started out at Oakridge I believe. I know he was in NY, perhaps Columbia for sometime, and he was at Livermore and Los Alamos for short times. That is how I recall it anyway.

 

I know zero about physics or the Manhattan Project except what I recall him saying. He worked on gaseous diffusion to separate isotopes and he and his team were assigned to develop some viable material that could hold up to the highly caustic (is that the term?) uranium passing through. He/they came up with this alloy of nickel and alluminum that they eventually used. Again, that is how I remember it. And I remember him laughing about how it was so stupid that they wouldn't let him see his notes because you could find this stuff in the library (or maybe even the internet already) and no one making a weapon would use that outdated stuff.

[Wacka]

Isikoff is a slimy but pretty decent reporter, as far as investigative reporters go. Hardly a liberal shill, he broke and practically spearheaded the Monica Lewinsky story against Clinton (thanks, Mike) as well as broke the Paula Jones story (or one of the first).

338492[/snapback]

 

No he sat on the Lewinsky story and it wsa Drudge that broke it. And Drudge mentioned that Isikoff wsa sitting on it.

[Kelly the Dog]

No he sat on the Lewinsky story and it wsa Drudge that broke it.  And Drudge mentioned that Isikoff wsa sitting on it.

338675[/snapback]

From what I recall, he wanted to run the story. Newsweek sat on it and it was leaked to Drudge. From today's Seattle Times...

Newsweek's item was principally reported by Isikoff, a veteran investigative reporter, who initiated the story by calling the source.

 

Isikoff, a former Post reporter, gained national attention in 1998 when the magazine held his report on an independent counsel's investigation of Monica Lewinsky's relationship with President Clinton, a report that then leaked to Internet gossip Matt Drudge. Isikoff's role was crucial because he had listened to tapes secretly recorded by Linda Tripp, a colleague of the former White House intern.

Isokoff also, from today's NYT...

Mr. Isikoff, 53, broke into newspapering with The Washington Star, now defunct, and joined The Washington Post in 1981. While at The Post, he began pursuing the story of Paula Jones and her sexual harassment suit against President Clinton. When The Post was reluctant to print his findings, he became involved in a now legendary newsroom brouhaha with Fred Barbash, then the deputy national editor. Robert Kaiser, the paper's managing editor, suspended Mr. Isikoff for two weeks.

 

The point is that he is just a snake and goes after anyone, liberal and conservative alike, and is hardly a liberal shill. His greatest triumphs were going after liberals. His book was titled "Uncovering Clinton".

[Campy]

Whether it was true, or not...a lot of people, especially the left aisle, want a "Hearts and Minds" campaign run. "Change the reasons people become terrorists" "Kumbaya", etc.

 

Is it not better to cure the disease than just treat the symptoms?

 

Little incidents such as this set back any progress that was made almost to sqaure one, or worse. Media HAS to be sensitive to these things.

338442[/snapback]

 

That's not really their responsibility is it?

 

If the government as a whole wants to eliminate these "setbacks," perhaps they should re-examine their policies and procedures. Of course I'm the cynic who simply can't buy into the claim that the only people responsible for the prison-abuse thingy were the soldiers charged in the affair.

[Pete]

Is it totally beyond belief that the story was true and that Newsweek is backing off at the request of the government?

 

Considering how many people here are calling for reinstituting full-fledged censorship of the media, it wouldn't be totally out of the question for something like that to occur, would it?

338360[/snapback]

I think that is the case. Still the blood is on Newsweeks hands regardless. War is hell and we are at war

[Terry Tate]

For the folks who are convinced that these "abuses" actually took place, and it's the governments' responsibility to prove they didn't, I have just one question - have you stopped beating your wives?

[Thurman's Helmet]

How do those fluckers over there even know what a TOILET is?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

How do those fluckers over there even know what a TOILET is?

338936[/snapback]

 

A: they don't. The crap into a hole in the ground. It's unnerving to walk into a stall and see a hole there where the toilet should be.

[PastaJoe]

For the folks who are convinced that these "abuses" actually took place, and it's the governments' responsibility to prove they didn't, I have just one question - have you stopped beating your wives?

338933[/snapback]

 

Well if you had pictures of me stacking up my family in human pyramids and leading my wife around by a collar, and the FBI said I was abusing my wife while we were down in the Caribbean, then people would probably be more likely to believe that I was beating my wife, than if that claim was made without any prior similar proof of behavior.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Well if you had pictures of me stacking up my family in human pyramids and leading my wife around by a collar, and the FBI said I was abusing my wife while we were down in the Caribbean, then people would probably be more likely to believe that I was beating my wife, than if that claim was made without any prior similar proof of behavior.

339060[/snapback]

 

Just checking...but you do know that this is about Gitmo, and not Abu Ghraib, right?

[Alaska Darin]

Just checking...but you do know that this is about Gitmo, and not Abu Ghraib, right?

339071[/snapback]

Just another of Joe's "lahjikal" leaps of faith. You know, where all US military police stack people in naked pyramids but all Muslims aren't terrorists.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Just another of Joe's "lahjikal" leaps of faith.  You know, where all US military police stack people in naked pyramids but all Muslims aren't terrorists. 

339080[/snapback]

 

Be nice. Let's at least let him clarify whether it was an honest mistake or stupid analogy before we crucify him for being stupid...

[PastaJoe]

Just checking...but you do know that this is about Gitmo, and not Abu Ghraib, right?

339071[/snapback]

 

The FBI reported previously about abuses at Gitmo, and a former soldier stationed there has described seeing tactics used to shame Muslims, especially by female soldiers, so the latest claim just fits the pattern. Now go ahead with the pattern here and attack the messenger because you don't like the message.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The FBI reported previously about abuses at Gitmo, and a former soldier stationed there has described seeing tactics used to shame Muslims, especially by female soldiers, so the latest claim just fits the pattern.  Now go ahead with the pattern here and attack the messenger because you don't like the message.

339341[/snapback]

 

Allegations.

 

ALLEGATIONS.

 

Unsubstantiated and unconfirmed allegations, not facts, are what Newsweek and their liberal ilk are reporting and it's irresponsible, no matter how you try to spin it.