Trump stole top secret nuclear docs - greatest security risk in US history - MORE TAPES!!!

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

it means MAGA's leader is very old and the heir apparent is a loser...perhaps as long as it takes was unclear.  I thought you meant for MAGA to take power.

 

So no different than the Dem leader except he's older and the heir apparent is an even bigger loser.  Great choices we have.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Doc

[BillStime]

 

[BillStime]

🎯

 

 

[Pokebball]

17 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

How long did Trump have the ability to snap a photo of these documents? Or make a copy of these documents?

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

How long did Trump have the ability to snap a photo of these documents? Or make a copy of these documents?

It’s an excellent point and one I’ve wondered about during this entire document saga. Anyone who has documents outside of the secure location (Biden, Pence, Trump) only needs to photocopy or take a cellphone photo of them and poof….there goes the control over the document. So does it really matter if you give them back? It’s not like it’s a piece of jewelry! 

Edited July 16, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

How long did Trump have the ability to snap a photo of these documents? Or make a copy of these documents?

 

Doesn't matter. Did he have a right to retain those documents?

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

 

Doesn't matter. Did he have a right to retain those documents?

Did Biden? 

[BillStime]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Did Biden? 

 

Nope. Did Trump?

[Pokebball]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Doesn't matter. Did he have a right to retain those documents?

Pivot from the post I responded to

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

 

Nope. Did Trump?

Biden: ABSOLUTELY not!

 

Trump: All of the documents? Maybe. Maybe not. (That’s the essence of the dispute.) The vast, vast majority of the documents…definitely. 

[BillStime]

3 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Pivot from the post I responded to

 

I answered it - you just didn't get the bang for the buck you were looking for champ.

 

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Trump: All of the documents? Maybe. Maybe not. (That’s the essence of the dispute.) The vast, vast majority of the documents…definitely. 

 

It's a yes or no. Stop waffling.

 

 

[ChiGoose]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Biden: ABSOLUTELY not!

 

Trump: All of the documents? Maybe. Maybe not. (That’s the essence of the dispute.) The vast, vast majority of the documents…definitely. 

It’s not the essence of the dispute in any way shape or form. 
 

Trump had no right to the government documents the second he was no longer president.

 

When it was discovered that he had them, instead of turning them over and cooperating like everyone else in his position, he obstructed the government. Then, he turned over some of the documents and lied to the authorities, saying he had returned them all when he in reality has secretly kept many of them. 
 

He ended up only getting charged with the documents he lied about.

 

So even though he took documents he had no right to, refused to return them obstructed the government, he would not have been charged had he just handed everything over when he claimed he did. 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, BillStime said:

 

 

It's a yes or no. Stop waffling.

 

 

Don’t be a fool. This is what the dispute is all about. 
 

Now…do Biden. Stop waffling. This entire narrative went to crap the minute Biden was found to have classified documents. 

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

It’s not the essence of the dispute in any way shape or form. 
 

Trump had no right to the government documents the second he was no longer president.

 

When it was discovered that he had them, instead of turning them over and cooperating like everyone else in his position, he obstructed the government. Then, he turned over some of the documents and lied to the authorities, saying he had returned them all when he in reality has secretly kept many of them. 
 

He ended up only getting charged with the documents he lied about.

 

So even though he took documents he had no right to, refused to return them obstructed the government, he would not have been charged had he just handed everything over when he claimed he did. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then the real problem is NOT Trump or Biden, but our horribly lax document control system.  

[ChiGoose]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Don’t be a fool. This is what the dispute is all about. 
 

Now…do Biden. Stop waffling. This entire narrative went to crap the minute Biden was found to have classified documents. 

I don’t know where you get your information from but whatever it is, it’s absolutely garbage. 

[BillStime]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Now…do Biden. Stop waffling. This entire narrative went to crap the minute Biden was found to have classified documents. 

 

Waffle? I was direct. Also, Biden returned his and didn't put up a pathetic fight.

 

Why didn't Trump?

Why did Trump force his lawyers to lie and sign documents indicating that everything was returned?

Why is Trump above the law?

 

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

I don’t know where you get your information from but whatever it is, it’s absolutely garbage. 

Come on Goose! That’s why you’re the King. You know everything and everyone else knows nothing. 
 

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

How long did Trump have the ability to snap a photo of these documents? Or make a copy of these documents?

 

A lot less longer than Joke did.  "But he gave them back immediately after discovering he had them.  Honest!"

 

14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Biden: ABSOLUTELY not!

 

Trump: All of the documents? Maybe. Maybe not. (That’s the essence of the dispute.) The vast, vast majority of the documents…definitely. 

 

Well glad to see BSTime admits that Joke is a criminal as well.

 

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Come on Goose! That’s why you’re the King. You know everything and everyone else knows nothing.

 

He's a lawyer.  The profession where truth is secondary to what you can prove/get away with.

[ChiGoose]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Come on Goose! That’s why you’re the King. You know everything and everyone else knows nothing. 
 

No, I got labeled the king because a bunch of people on this site cannot read and also can’t stop bragging about that for some reason. 
 

In any case, Trump is facing legal jeopardy because he obstructed law enforcement. If he did what Pence and Biden did, he’d be fine. But he ignored his lawyers and listened to Tom Fitton instead and now he is reaping what he sowed. 

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

Well glad to see BSTime admits that Joke is a criminal as well.

 

Did the federal government give Trump EVERY opportunity to return these documents?

 

Yes or No.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

No, I got labeled the king because a bunch of people on this site cannot read and also can’t stop bragging about that for some reason. 
 

In any case, Trump is facing legal jeopardy because he obstructed law enforcement. If he did what Pence and Biden did, he’d be fine. But he ignored his lawyers and listened to Tom Fitton instead and now he is reaping what he sowed. 

Yeah right.

If the issue is document control, then the issue is resolved when the government got ‘their’ documents back. I guess a jury could say that Trump should pay for the cost of the raid, but that seems a bit petty and ridiculous. If the issue is that Trump honestly thought he could keep the documents then that again had now been resolved with the raid, and it should be Trump (not the government) bringing an action to get ‘his’ documents back to Mara Lago. Either way the entire issue is ridiculous. And made more so when it was discovered that virtually EVERYONE has documents after leaving office. 

[ChiGoose]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Yeah right.

If the issue is document control, then the issue is resolved when the government got ‘their’ documents back. I guess a jury could say that Trump should pay for the cost of the raid, but that seems a bit petty and ridiculous. If the issue is that Trump honestly thought he could keep the documents then that again had now been resolved with the raid, and it should be Trump (not the government) bringing an action to get ‘his’ documents back to Mara Lago. Either way the entire issue is ridiculous. And made more so when it was discovered that virtually EVERYONE has documents after leaving office. 

The issue is obstruction. 

[Unforgiven]

You've chosen to ignore content by BillStime. Options 

 

you need a hobby...seems like a sport you would like....

[Doc]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

The issue is obstruction. 

 

The real issue is having material you shouldn't and what you may have done with it.  But since your guy was also caught with it, you move onto something else to make it seem like what your guy did wasn't so bad/what the other did is worse.  It's laughable, but that's not unexpected.

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The real issue is having material you shouldn't and what you may have done with it.  But since your guy was also caught with it, you move onto something else to make it seem like what your guy did wasn't so bad/what the other did is worse.  It's laughable, but that's not unexpected.

 

Was Trump NOT given the opportunity to return said documents?

 

Yes or No.

 

 

[ChiGoose]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The real issue is having material you shouldn't and what you may have done with it.  But since your guy was also caught with it, you move onto something else to make it seem like what your guy did wasn't so bad/what the other did is worse.  It's laughable, but that's not unexpected.

The real issue is that simply explaining reality is seen as partisan because conservatives now live in a fantasy world that facts cannot penetrate. 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

The real issue is that simply explaining reality is seen as partisan because conservatives now live in a fantasy world that facts cannot penetrate. 

 

Answer me this: why are they not allowed to have classified material?

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

The issue is obstruction. 

Obstruction is a ridiculous charge, and I trust you know it. There was an ongoing dispute that was in essence resolved when one side used brute force to end it, at a time when the other side was knowingly not home. This PROVES that the government could have ended the dispute at literally any time, but they chose not to. If obstruction is the claim, as you say it is, then this looks for all the world like entrapment. 

[ChiGoose]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Answer me this: why are they not allowed to have classified material?

They are not allowed to have any government material without express permission of the agency that owns it, classified or not. 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, ChiGoose said:

They are not allowed to have any government material without express permission of the agency that owns it, classified or not. 

Now you really have to be kidding! If that’s the claim then literally everyone who’s ever worked for the government is guilty as hell. I guarantee they ALL have some pens and a stapler at home. Every single one of them. 

[ChiGoose]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Obstruction is a ridiculous charge, and I trust you know it. There was an ongoing dispute that was in essence resolved when one side used brute force to end it, at a time when the other side was knowingly not home. This PROVES that the government could have ended the dispute at literally any time, but they chose not to. If obstruction is the claim, as you say it is, then this looks for all the world like entrapment. 

Holy cow. This is so unbelievably wrong that’s it’s really hard to know where to start. 
 

There was no real factual dispute. Trump’s lawyers knew he wasn’t supposed to have them and told him this. Your argument amounts to “the burglar truly believed that he owned the things he stole even those his own lawyers said he didn’t, therefore you cannot blame him for not returning it. 
 

Whoever is feeding you this nonsense is either completely ignorant of reality or just lying to you. 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

They are not allowed to have any government material without express permission of the agency that owns it, classified or not. 

 

Yup.  So "I didn't mean to take it" isn't an acceptable excuse.

[ChiGoose]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Now you really have to be kidding! If that’s the claim then literally everyone who’s ever worked for the government is guilty as hell. I guarantee they ALL have some pens and a stapler at home. Every single one of them. 

And they won’t be prosecuted for it because it’s not worth it for a couple of pens and staplers. If you quit your job and took some pens from the storage closet on the way out, do you think your former company would sue you for it?

 

As to the documents cases, the PRA is very clear on this. Just because Pence and Biden are capable of listening to their lawyers while Trump is not does not prove some conspiracy against Trump. It just shows him to be an idiot. 

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yup.  So "I didn't mean to take it" isn't an acceptable excuse.

Sure. And if they were some government employee or contractor, they would be disciplined up to an including potentially being fired. But they’d only likely face actual prosecution if it could be proven that they took it intentionally or they refused to return it when it was discovered. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by ChiGoose

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

And they won’t be prosecuted for it because it’s not worth it for a couple of pens and staplers. If you quit your job and took some pens from the storage closet on the way out, do you think your former company would sue you for it?

 

As to the documents cases, the PRA is very clear on this. Just because Pence and Biden are capable of listening to their lawyers while Trump is not does not prove some conspiracy against Trump. It just shows him to be an idiot. 

Sure. And if they were some government employee or contractor, they would be disciplined up to an including potentially being fired. But they’d only likely face actual prosecution if it could be proven that they took it intentionally or they refused to return it when it was discovered. 

More nonsense. I really hope I see you in court one day. 😉

[Pokebball]

20 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Now you really have to be kidding! If that’s the claim then literally everyone who’s ever worked for the government is guilty as hell. I guarantee they ALL have some pens and a stapler at home. Every single one of them. 

Need a couple new prisons

[Doc]

26 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Holy cow. This is so unbelievably wrong that’s it’s really hard to know where to start. 
 

There was no real factual dispute. Trump’s lawyers knew he wasn’t supposed to have them and told him this. Your argument amounts to “the burglar truly believed that he owned the things he stole even those his own lawyers said he didn’t, therefore you cannot blame him for not returning it. 
 

Whoever is feeding you this nonsense is either completely ignorant of reality or just lying to you. 

 

While your argument is "the burglar doesn't know how the stolen stuff got in his possession, but now that you've found it, here it is back and he's free and clear."  How convenient.

 

Again as I said, a lower level government employee wouldn't have been able to use such as excuse, so obviously there are different rules for different people.  I care more about what was done with the classified material, since that's why they don't want people taking it.  And that's the intent I care about more.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Doc

[All_Pro_Bills]

19 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

They are not allowed to have any government material without express permission of the agency that owns it, classified or not. 

Part of it is the law and constitution treat every other citizen differently than the President.  Also. Pence and Biden where not President.  And all those agencies report to the President.  I could be wrong but my understanding is the President is "allowed" access to everything and agency "rules" do not apply to the commander in chief.  The boss of every career and appointed employee of the executive branch.

I agree Trump's resistance to turning over documents to the archiever are foolish and should bear consequences but to argue the pursuit of criminal charges is completely devoid of political motivation is even more foolish.

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

While your argument for "the burglar doesn't know how the stolen stuff got in his possession, but now that you've found it, here it is back and he's free and clear."  How convenient.

Goose claims the dispute is over obstruction, NOT over the documents themselves. But how is it any way worth arresting your former boss once you already have your documents back? Unless of course the actual intent is to either aid or impress your new boss. Hmmmm? 

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Goose claims the dispute is over obstruction, NOT over the documents themselves. But how is it any way worth arresting your former boss once you already have your documents back? Unless of course the actual intent is to either aid or impress your new boss. Hmmmm? 

 

Yes because if it were about possession, Joke would be guilty as well.  He's hiding behind the "prove Joke knew he took/had them" legal trick to cover for the years and in some cases decades he had classified material, kept in plain sight in a wholly insecure location he visited hundreds of times no less, with a drug addict for a son having access to them. 

 

Meanwhile if that's an acceptable excuse, congress critters could/should instruct someone else to take classified material (how can a Senator be in possession of classified material anyway, when they're kept in SCIFs?).  What's the downside?

Edited July 16, 2023 by Doc

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Yes because if it were about possession, Joke would be guilty as well.  He's hiding behind the "prove Joke knew he took/had them" legal trick to cover for the years and in some cases decades he had classified material, kept in a wholly insecure location no less, with a drug addict for a son having access to them. 

 

Meanwhile if that's an acceptable excuse, congress critters could/should instruct someone else to take classified material (how can a Senator be in possession of classified material anyway, when they're kept in SCIFs?).  What's the downside?

Then Goose claims it isn't ‘worth’ prosecuting over a stapler. So how’s it worth prosecuting when the government has already been made whole with the documents? Answer: it isn’t unless the new Administration is trying to kneecap a political rival. 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Then Goose claims it isn't ‘worth’ prosecuting over a stapler. So how’s it worth prosecuting when the government has already been made whole with the documents? Answer: it isn’t unless the new Administration is trying to kneecap a political rival. 

 

There's a time limit, you know.  That is, unless you can claim you didn't know you had them (despite being in plain sight in a place you've gone into hundreds of times).