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So has the defensive line "rotation" thing been exposed as nonsense?


Jim
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Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Edited by Jim
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4 minutes ago, Jim said:

Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas.

 

But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assedly defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actually star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have.

Our defensive line was much much better than what we did against mahomes last year and their offensive line was significantly better this year also.  It hurts because we lost but I wouldn’t say the defensive line rotation wasn’t working…bengals held up better in coverage while mahomes was doing his running around in circles waiting for hill or Kelce to get open routine lol we needed tre white

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4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Our defensive line was much much better than what we did against mahomes last year and their offensive line was significantly better this year also.  It hurts because we lost but I wouldn’t say the defensive line rotation wasn’t working…bengals held up better in coverage while mahomes was doing his running around in circles waiting for hill or Kelce to get open routine lol we needed tre white

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Our DL played very well the majority of the season. They did run out of gas vs a very good OL to end the season.

 

But the rotation is supposed to keep them fresh. If our d-line can't play a half game or a quarter game or however long these guys get snaps, then that is an indictment of the rotation theory, is it not?

Edited by Jim
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Fundamentally I have no problem with the concept—but I do want impact guys in depth, so that each rotation like a hockey shift can still get home at any time. There’s no question that Dlinemen tire quicker than their counterparts, so I get why we do it. Just do it effectively! 

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3 minutes ago, Jim said:

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

He was under a ton of pressure against us…we moved him off the spot just about every play.  Didn’t spy him well though…I think it’s more of a linebacker issue.  Bengals got beat by qb scrambles during the first half too.  Mahomes made tons of completely self inflicted errors against the bengals too…one of those against us and we win

Edited by Generic_Bills_Fan
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1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He was under a ton of pressure against us…we moved him off the spot just about every play.  Didn’t spy him well though…I think it’s more of a linebacker issue.  Bengals got beat by qb scrambles during the first half too 

 

I know its an eye of the beholder type thing, but I just never really felt he was hurried by our guys. Yes they got after him, but I ask you guys/gals, was anybody ever surprised that they couldn't get to him? Mario Addison is the king of letting guys slip through his grip and so many times we had guys diving at his feet, which yes, made Mahomes move. But that's what he does. Pressuring Mahomes (and Josh) is much different than pressuring Brady or Burrow or the conventional QB.

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Just now, Jim said:

 

I know its an eye of the beholder type thing, but I just never really felt he was hurried by our guys. Yes they got after him, but I ask you guys/gals, was anybody ever surprised that they couldn't get to him? Mario Addison is the king of letting guys slip through his grip and so many times we had guys diving at his feet, which yes, made Mahomes move. But that's what he does. Pressuring Mahomes (and Josh) is much different than pressuring Brady or Burrow or the conventional QB.

He was hurried all game against us..we were inches from a sack on just about every play…bengals must’ve done something clever taking away his rushing lanes because he was dancing around for 10-12 seconds today and couldn’t do anything with it.  Something they were doing had him absolutely baffled.

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2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Goes back many years , really to the 90’s Cowboys era. Those Cowboys teams were stacked on the DL, so their line kept fresh was overwhelming. Gotta have the quality for it to matter. 

 

Yeah. I think thats the truth. And kinda ends the thread in a way. We don't have the playmakers. I like Jerry and Mario seems like a nice guy and had a better season this year than last, but neither is getting younger and neither is anything close to a game wrecker. The only problem is do we go into next season with Groot, AJ and Boogie? That's pretty scary. I think this is one position where Beane should try to go big as possible. We need a real playmaker. And yes, I knew easier said than done. But I just dont think that playmaker is coming at 25 in the first round, just as I didnt think it was coming at number 30 last year.

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Need a better quality, twitchier, bendier D end. At least one. The guys they have are good solid players and in his prime Hughes and likely Addison too (though I am not as familiar with him from his Panthers days) fit the bill. They don't grow on trees. Hendrickson was a great pickup by the Bengals in free agency and the Rams added Miller. Those kinds of investments paid dividends. 

 

Did the Bengals not rush just 3 a lot and play 8 in coverage in the 2nd half? Mahomes looked more confused than pressured. His guys were not really open and the Chiefs, much like the Bills in the Super Bowl against the Giants, did not stay patient with a running game that was gashing the Bengals for 6-7 yards pretty much every time. 
Added: 

per Chris Trapasso:   https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/what-in-the-world-happened-to-patrick-mahomes-after-halftime-examining-chiefs-qbs-play-in-afc-title-game/

Edited by BubbaT
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1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

He was hurried all game against us..we were inches from a sack on just about every play…bengals must’ve done something clever taking away his rushing lanes because he was dancing around for 10-12 seconds today and couldn’t do anything with it.  Something they were doing had him absolutely baffled.

 

I agree that it seemed we got close. And maybe I'm just being negative, but not once during the game did I think our guys were actually gonna get there. Maybe you did, and we really were that close. But what Cincy did just hemmed him in. And yeah. It's probably due to our linebackers as well. Which is a whole other thing.

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1 minute ago, BubbaT said:

Need a better quality, twitchier, bendier D end. At least one. The guys they have are solid players and in his prime Hughes and likely Addison too (though I am not as familiar with him from his Panthers days) fit the bill. They don't grow on trees. Hendrickson was a great pickup by the Bengals in free agency and the Rams added Miller. Those kinds of investments paid dividends. 

 

Yep. That's it. I liked the Obada pickup and it was worthy try to find an undiscovered gem. But it didn't work. And thus far, Groot and Boogie haven't worked. AJ is...whatever. If Beane and the Bills are serious about making a run they gotta find somebody. The Khalil Mack thing is as old as time itself, but it's true. Beane took the risk and got Diggs. Take another risk and grab another game changer.

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1 hour ago, Jim said:

 

I respect your opinion Generic, but our defensive line ultimately didn't get anywhere close to getting the job done. I don't recall once really seeing Mahomes look hurried or truly pressured. I mean yes, they made him move around, but I never once really expected they were ever gonna catch him. You knew you'd get the classic grasp at his feet that he'd shrug off and run away from. Whereas this week, you saw a hurried Mahomes. And I think that impacted his throws on other plays. He was worried the Bengals were getting to him. I don't think there was any such fear with Jerry Hughes and Mario Addison.

 

But the rotation is supposed to keep them fresh. If our d-line can't play a half game or a quarter game or however long these guys get snaps, then that is an indictment of the rotation theory, is it not?

They can. They did just fine 80%+ of the season.  

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Just now, NewEra said:

They can. They did just fine 80%+ of the season.  

 

You yourself said they ran out of gas. If you're playing only a spot role, how are you out of gas in the 4th quarter? Isn't that what the whole rotation thing was supposed to remedy? To me, as an earlier poster stated, its more about the fact that we have a bunch of half assed talent on the d-line outside of Oliver (and perhaps Harry, who's been coming on strong).

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The one thing I noticed in the chiefs playoff game was on Josh Allen should have been game winning pass Chiefs star DT Chris Jones was on the bench. I wonder if he was gassed as well at that point in the game.

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54 minutes ago, Jim said:

 

You yourself said they ran out of gas. If you're playing only a spot role, how are you out of gas in the 4th quarter? Isn't that what the whole rotation thing was supposed to remedy? To me, as an earlier poster stated, its more about the fact that we have a bunch of half assed talent on the d-line outside of Oliver (and perhaps Harry, who's been coming on strong).

Yes, they ran out of gas in the AFCCG….our DL wasn’t a problem for the majority of the season.  They played very well 

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