Refs and bad calls have ramifications

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

IMO, it is more egregious to not enforce the rule on one play, but do so on another. The rules are the rules. If a defensive lineman inadvertently runs into a QB and knocks him to the ground after the QB clearly threw a pass that resulted in an interception, should they not enforce the rule because the lineman didn't actually mean to run into the QB and the interception would have happened anyway? 

 

I would be pissed to see a TD called back in the playoffs on an inadvertent whistle; however, I would have to agree with the call.

At the end of the day, who was so dumb as to blow the whistle.  On top of everything all TDs are reviewed and no reason to blow a whistle when there are challenges and automatic reviews.  

 

It will be the called (or non-called) pass interference that scares me the most this week.😜 

[billsfan1959]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

At the end of the day, who was so dumb as to blow the whistle.  On top of everything all TDs are reviewed and no reason to blow a whistle when there are challenges and automatic reviews.  

 

It will be the called (or non-called) pass interference that scares me the most this week.😜 

 

Yeah, the end result doesn't upset me in any way as I don't believe the whistle impacted the play.

 

Let's hope there are no critical calls against the BIlls this week! 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

At the end of the day, who was so dumb as to blow the whistle.  On top of everything all TDs are reviewed and no reason to blow a whistle when there are challenges and automatic reviews.  

 

It will be the called (or non-called) pass interference that scares me the most this week.😜 

Seemed like we learned from that playoff game if you look at the regular season matchup this year.  They tried to hold our guys but couldn’t because our wrs were healthy so we held the sh*t out of Kelce lol

[Mr. WEO]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:26 AM, ßookie_tech said:

They should be deeply graded after every performance and paid based on grade. I guarantee it would improve. 

 

 

Why would you guarantee this?  Are they just being lazy when they get a call wrong---even when they review and discuss it before the final ruling?

 

I don't see how altering pay (decreasing it) will eliminate bad calls.  These are veteran refs trying to do the best job.  They understand their own review process and its potential consequences.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Yea the terrible no call against the bucs cost us the 2 seed lol how’s that for ramifications we’d be playing the chiefs at home this week 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Patrick Duffy]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Why would you guarantee this?  Are they just being lazy when they get a call wrong---even when they review and discuss it before the final ruling?

 

I don't see how altering pay (decreasing it) will eliminate bad calls.  These are veteran refs trying to do the best job.  They understand their own review process and its potential consequences.  

Yeah, If anything I would go with maybe (as for the penalties/non-call) ones that are major and obvious that can be game changing could be reviewed, Maybe could make a little better.  Just some of those that can't be challenged or whatever. Like a 40+ yard PI, or ticky tack roughing passer that can be reviewed. IDK

[PrimeTime101]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:23 AM, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Referee Jerome Boger and the crew that worked the AFC wild-card game between the Las Vegas Raidersand Cincinnati Bengals are not expected to officiate again this postseason after their problematic performance Saturday highlighted by a controversial whistle.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33078679/jerome-boger-officials-raiders-bengals-game-not-expected-work-again-nfl-postseason

 

 

 

FWIW I think the Bills came away on the good side of the refereeing Saturday 

if not worthy please move or lock 

 ok... do you realize how many Ref crews there are? They just keeping them off the field for publicity.  We will see the same crew mess up next season.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah, If anything I would go with maybe (as for the penalties/non-call) ones that are major and obvious that can be game changing could be reviewed, Maybe could make a little better.  Just some of those that can't be challenged or whatever. Like a 40+ yard PI, or ticky tack roughing passer that can be reviewed. IDK

 

When the NFL was (briefly) reviewing PI calls, fans still weren't satisfied.

 

There's nothing new under the sun, despite endless threads claiming otherwise...

[Patrick Duffy]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

When the NFL was (briefly) reviewing PI calls, fans still weren't satisfied.

 

There's nothing new under the sun, despite endless threads claiming otherwise...

Well some were some not. But just to be clear, I'm talking about only those big yardage, obviously questionable calls we see once in a while that gets lots of attention and talked about. Those ones that can impact crucial moments of a game, or even the outcome. Not just any ol normal PI etc. 

 

I don't know bro, I'm just spit ballin it....lol

Edited January 19, 2022 by Sheneneh Jenkins

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Well some were some not. But just to be clear, I'm talking about only those big yardage, obviously questionable calls we see once in a while that gets lots of attention and talked about. Those ones that can impact crucial moments of a game, or even the outcome. Not just any ol normal PI etc. 

 

I don't know bro, I'm just spit ballin it....lol

 

Well there was the one in the NO-Vikes game a few years ago.  The rest are just run of the mill hits/misses.

 

One fan's terrible call is another's awesome call.  It will always be this way in every sport that is refereed.

[Bookie Man]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Why would you guarantee this?  Are they just being lazy when they get a call wrong---even when they review and discuss it before the final ruling?

 

I don't see how altering pay (decreasing it) will eliminate bad calls.  These are veteran refs trying to do the best job.  They understand their own review process and its potential consequences.  

Because money and pain are the two things that influence human behavior the most. If the referee that threw the flag on Levi Wallace vs TB in OT knew he was going to be docked say 25k for an egregious call like that, I doubt he throws that flag. If Tony Corrente knew he was going to get fined say 50k or even better knew he was going to be "retired"  for throwing an extremely controversial flag on Cassius Marsh (the ref hip check taunting penalty) , I highly doubt he throws that flag. Yes there are bang bang calls the will get wrong. Maybe not penalize for those. But heinous calls (Saints vs Rams NFCC and many others like). Google "blindside blocks Bills-Texans" or "Saints-Texans". Those flags are travesties. You hold refs accountable and they won't throw questionable flags, that might cost them money. It's all about accountability. 

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Because money and pain are the two things that influence human behavior the most. If the referee that threw the flag on Levi Wallace vs TB in OT knew he was going to be docked say 25k for an egregious call like that, I doubt he throws that flag. If Tony Corrente knew he was going to get fined say 50k or even better knew he was going to be "retired"  for throwing an extremely controversial flag on Cassius Marsh (the ref hip check taunting penalty) , I highly doubt he throws that flag. Yes there are bang bang calls the will get wrong. Maybe not penalize for those. But heinous calls (Saints vs Rams NFCC and many others like). Google "blindside blocks Bills-Texans" or "Saints-Texans". Those flags are travesties. You hold refs accountable and they won't throw questionable flags, that might cost them money. It's all about accountability. 

 

Why stop there?  Why not fine players for egregiously bad plays (looking at you, Cowboys).  Wouldn't that also eliminate all egregiously bad plays?

 

Of course it wouldn't.  Just like fining refs won't alter the fact that bad calls are going to be made.   Unless you think they are trying purposely to call the wrong penalty on a bang bang play every time, then your argument makes little sense.

 

This is how these guys get penalized--they don't get the premium postseason games and the money that comes with them. Done and done. 

 

Look, calls are made, refs discuss things amongst themselves, it is "reviewed in New York", then the call stands or is reversed.  Anything that's not reviewable...too bad.  The other team certainly isn't crying.  

[Bookie Man]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Why stop there?  Why not fine players for egregiously bad plays (looking at you, Cowboys).  Wouldn't that also eliminate all egregiously bad plays?

 

Of course it wouldn't.  Just like fining refs won't alter the fact that bad calls are going to be made.   Unless you think they are trying purposely to call the wrong penalty on a bang bang play every time, then your argument makes little sense.

 

This is how these guys get penalized--they don't get the premium postseason games and the money that comes with them. Done and done. 

 

Look, calls are made, refs discuss things amongst themselves, it is "reviewed in New York", then the call stands or is reversed.  Anything that's not reviewable...too bad.  The other team certainly isn't crying.  

I'm saying there needs to be more repercussion than just them not getting the premium games. And I don't just mean fining them for bad calls, that I was saying to reinforce my point. I was thinking more like grading their performance overall and paying on that. If they called a very fair, consistent game they get a top grade and get top pay. And at the other end, if they called an inconsistent and unfair game they get a bottom grade and bottom pay. At the very least it would lead to a more fair game called. Also yes, I am also a fan of the refs having to sit in a post game press conference with video. Transparency and accountability. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, ßookie_tech said:

I'm saying there needs to be more repercussion than just them not getting the premium games. And I don't just mean fining them for bad calls, that I was saying to reinforce my point. I was thinking more like grading their performance overall and paying on that. If they called a very fair, consistent game they get a top grade and get top pay. And at the other end, if they called an inconsistent and unfair game they get a bottom grade and bottom pay. At the very least it would lead to a more fair game called. Also yes, I am also a fan of the refs having to sit in a post game press conference with video. Transparency and accountability. 

 

The best/most experienced refs are going to miss calls or make bad calls.  They are made without bad intent so they really can't be simply corrected by money.

 

Again, unless you think they are intentionally making the wrong calls, I don't know how docking their pay/fining (these are all the same thing)for a "bad game" is going to prevent any ref or crew from having a future bad game.  Do you think they are thinking "I have to be a much better ref today than last week or they will pay me less for this game"?  Of course not.

 

Can you name any other major sports league where they fine refs/umps or withhold full contractually owed pay/salary for bad calls?

 

Fines don't prevent players for committing stupid/finable penalties and they never will.  It doesn't work.

 

[reddogblitz]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:26 AM, ßookie_tech said:

They should be deeply graded after every performance and paid based on grade. I guarantee it would improve. 

 

And if they pull a ***** like this they should be inactivated until they can get 90% on a hard NFL rules exam.

[Bookie Man]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The best/most experienced refs are going to miss calls or make bad calls.  They are made without bad intent so they really can't be simply corrected by money.

 

Again, unless you think they are intentionally making the wrong calls, I don't know how docking their pay/fining (these are all the same thing)for a "bad game" is going to prevent any ref or crew from having a future bad game.  Do you think they are thinking "I have to be a much better ref today than last week or they will pay me less for this game"?  Of course not.

 

Can you name any other major sports league where they fine refs/umps or withhold full contractually owed pay/salary for bad calls?

 

Fines don't prevent players for committing stupid/finable penalties and they never will.  It doesn't work.

 

They would be thinking "I need to call this game as evenly as possible". (See end of Bills/Bucs) I know there are many who think that Hughes is treated unfairly, not getting holding calls when he should. I am not saying I am one them, I haven't taken a deep enough look, but I also would not dismiss it. But say it was happening in a certain game, a film review and grade would show they were not making the same calls on player A as player B (Hughes). I don't see how you don't think that would lead to a more fairly officiated game. It's fine if they call a loose game, I actually prefer less flags. But call it the same way. 

 

-No, refs are not fined or held accountable at all in any sport. The system is broken. I'm throwing out ideas 

 

-I don't think you can compare refs and players. A bang bang helmet to helmet happens and you get fined. And a 10k fine is like a happy meal to some NFL players wallets. I think it's more the penalty that may cost their team the game that they're thinking about, rather than the fine.  But penalizing people for mistakes has an effect. Tickets don't solve speeding and other violations, but they help cut them down. Some restaurants make employees pay for the food if they ring it wrong. It doesn't mean the employees rang it in wrong on purpose, but if they know they have to pay for it, they are going to make less errors. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, ßookie_tech said:

They would be thinking "I need to call this game as evenly as possible". (See end of Bills/Bucs) I know there are many who think that Hughes is treated unfairly, not getting holding calls when he should. I am not saying I am one them, I haven't taken a deep enough look, but I also would not dismiss it. But say it was happening in a certain game, a film review and grade would show they were not making the same calls on player A as player B (Hughes). I don't see how you don't think that would lead to a more fairly officiated game. It's fine if they call a loose game, I actually prefer less flags. But call it the same way. 

 

-No, refs are not fined or held accountable at all in any sport. The system is broken. I'm throwing out ideas 

 

-I don't think you can compare refs and players. A bang bang helmet to helmet happens and you get fined. And a 10k fine is like a happy meal to some NFL players wallets. I think it's more the penalty that may cost their team the game that they're thinking about, rather than the fine.  But penalizing people for mistakes has an effect. Tickets don't solve speeding and other violations, but they help cut them down. Some restaurants make employees pay for the food if they ring it wrong. It doesn't mean the employees rang it in wrong on purpose, but if they know they have to pay for it, they are going to make less errors. 

 

This already happens every week for every ref.

 

Want to get rid of ref errors?  Get rid of refs.  Your idea makes no sense.  Penalties do not remove human error.  Plain and simple.

 

Speeding is an awful example for behavioral conditioning. Every driver violates the speed limit every time he/she drives, yet they all know that there is as close to zero chance they will get caught on any given trip that it has no effect on their behavior. And they are knowingly breaking th law, not honestly calling plays in a pro game. 

 

Another bad example is the restaurant employee.  If they are shorting the till, knowingly or not, that is money the owner is due.  This also has no relevance in the discussion of experienced refs trying to call a fair game.

 

[Bookie Man]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This already happens every week for every ref.

 

Want to get rid of ref errors?  Get rid of refs.  Your idea makes no sense.  Penalties do not remove human error.  Plain and simple.

 

Speeding is an awful example for behavioral conditioning. Every driver violates the speed limit every time he/she drives, yet they all know that there is as close to zero chance they will get caught on any given trip that it has no effect on their behavior. And they are knowingly breaking th law, not honestly calling plays in a pro game. 

 

Another bad example is the restaurant employee.  If they are shorting the till, knowingly or not, that is money the owner is due.  This also has no relevance in the discussion of experienced refs trying to call a fair game.

 

Want to get rid of crime? Get rid of law enforcement. I never implied that idea, I'm not sure why you said that. 

 

I explicitly said law does not remove crime and penalty does not remove human error. But it decreases it. If you knew 100% without a doubt, if you were to rob a bank and wouldn't get caught, would you do it? You and many others might say no. But there are many others who would. The penalty of going to prison, doesn't stop robberies from happening, but it decreases it. If you knew you were on the hot seat at work, would you pay extra attention to detail and be careful not to make any extra errors? Say if you were a teacher and were accused of treating students unfairly and at risk of losing your job, would you be mindful to treat everyone equally? 

 

Shorting the till? I never mentioned that either. I will repeat what I said. In most restaurants, probably 90% , if you ring in an order wrong, all you have to do is re-ring it and they comp the food off of the ticket. But in the other 10%, if you ring in the order wrong, they make you pay for the food. And in those restaurants, the comp % is substantially lower. Why do you think that is?

 

And that is my point. If referees knew they were going to be penalized (more than not getting called for big games, that is more like not getting your bonus check) for not calling a fair game, the games would be called more fairly. There is ZERO game to game accountability. I'm saying there should be review, transparency and grades. And pay should be dependent on those grades. 

 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, ßookie_tech said:

Want to get rid of crime? Get rid of law enforcement. I never implied that idea, I'm not sure why you said that. 

 

I explicitly said law does not remove crime and penalty does not remove human error. But it decreases it. If you knew 100% without a doubt, if you were to rob a bank and wouldn't get caught, would you do it? You and many others might say no. But there are many others who would. The penalty of going to prison, doesn't stop robberies from happening, but it decreases it. If you knew you were on the hot seat at work, would you pay extra attention to detail and be careful not to make any extra errors? Say if you were a teacher and were accused of treating students unfairly and at risk of losing your job, would you be mindful to treat everyone equally? 

 

Shorting the till? I never mentioned that either. I will repeat what I said. In most restaurants, probably 90% , if you ring in an order wrong, all you have to do is re-ring it and they comp the food off of the ticket. But in the other 10%, if you ring in the order wrong, they make you pay for the food. And in those restaurants, the comp % is substantially lower. Why do you think that is?

 

And that is my point. If referees knew they were going to be penalized (more than not getting called for big games, that is more like not getting your bonus check) for not calling a fair game, the games would be called more fairly. There is ZERO game to game accountability. I'm saying there should be review, transparency and grades. And pay should be dependent on those grades. 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't say that.  Getting rid of refs and having everything reviewed by video in a central office on every play will eliminate nearly all "errors".  

 

Just pointing out why your examples don't apply here.  Refs aren't committing crimes.  They are making judgement calls based on what they see and what they know.  

 

 

You keep insisting that the referees are intentionally calling an "unfair" game.  That means they are favoring one team over another throughout the game.  Unless ALL the refs in a game are in on some criminal enterprise to profit from one team beating another, your argument makes no sense.  And it follows that if they are not intentionally throwing the game one way or the other, than charging them money for errors won't have an impact on their error rate.

 

And I don't think you realize that all refs are already reviewed and graded?  And no pro sports leagues agree with the idea that paying refs less money (through fines/penalties will make them better refs---for all of the obvious reasons that I have listed a few times now.  

 

[Bookie Man]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I didn't say that.  Getting rid of refs and having everything reviewed by video in a central office on every play will eliminate nearly all "errors".  

 

Just pointing out why your examples don't apply here.  Refs aren't committing crimes.  They are making judgement calls based on what they see and what they know.  

 

 

You keep insisting that the referees are intentionally calling an "unfair" game.  That means they are favoring one team over another throughout the game.  Unless ALL the refs in a game are in on some criminal enterprise to profit from one team beating another, your argument makes no sense.  And it follows that if they are not intentionally throwing the game one way or the other, than charging them money for errors won't have an impact on their error rate.

 

And I don't think you realize that all refs are already reviewed and graded?  And no pro sports leagues agree with the idea that paying refs less money (through fines/penalties will make them better refs---for all of the obvious reasons that I have listed a few times now.  

 

Ok so you meant to say get rid of "on field" refs. Huge difference. A ref in office is still a ref. And I am a fan of that idea. 

 

I'm speaking about penalties affecting human behavior altogether. Whether crime or occupation, accountability improves results. 

 

I'm not saying all refs are intentionally calling unfair games or making terrible calls in every game. Are some games? Yes, without a doubt. I've seen it for and against Buffalo. And I disagree, I believe if an unfairly reffed game directly affects the amount they get paid, they will call a more fair game. And yes, I know that each game is reviewed and graded. But then what? If they screw up, then what? They issue an apology? And yes, I know no sports league holds refs accountable through fines or decreased pay. What I'm saying is they should.