All_Pro_Bills Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and should be treated as such. You don’t agree, neither does Putin Yes, Putin and I are on the same page here. That's your stock virtue signalling answer for anyone you don't agree with. Might I suggest you live in the real world at some point here? Edited October 14, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 31 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Yes, Putin and I are on the same page here. That's your stock virtue signalling answer for anyone you don't agree with. Might I suggest you live in the real world at some point here? I am, pointing out the similarity of arguments. Just a fact 34 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I didn't mention Biden here. Everything isn't about partisan politics Tibs. Do I think the Biden Administration should've done more leading up to this conflict? Absolutely! Do I think more can be done to end it now, instead of continuing to stoke the fire....absolutely! Stop pretending. You are just whining and not serious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Tiberius said: I am, pointing out the similarity of arguments. Just a fact My argument is if you want to achieve some objective and avoid conflict you need to negotiate. As I'm not an expert on Russia affairs or some sort of profiler, I don't know what Putin thinks. But your "we should be able to do what we want" thinking is like the guy that has a 200 foot deep backyard that puts his kids jungle gym and his tool shed 199 feet away from his back door and one foot inside the property line. Placing them about 20 feet from the neighbors back porch while seeing nothing wrong with it. Or one of my buddies neighbors that decided it was okay to divert the water flow into his backyard which floods his yard every time it rains. After all, everyone can do whatever they want! But real life don't work that way. There are actions and reactions and consequences. I've witnessed, or been a party to, situations where somebody thought they could do whatever they wanted and ended up getting the crap kicked out of them. And as far as countries go, I'll wager anyone expressing the idea Ukraine can do what they want will have a slightly different opinion about the Saudi's doing "what they want to do" with regards to lowering oil production levels. One lesson is where you stand depends on where you sit. Life's all about perspective. And our official perspective is governed by our own interests. Edited October 14, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: My argument is if you want to achieve some objective and avoid conflict you need to negotiate. They tried. Putin would not listen to anything. So your position is really silly It takes two to tango. Putin did not want to dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 Gees, they seem like such reasonable people to negotiate with 🙄 But no matter how many times Russia fires at Ukraine, pro-war Russian nationalists want more, even though targeting civilian infrastructure is potentially a war crime. “It has to be done constantly, not just once but for two to five weeks to totally disable all their infrastructure, all thermal power stations, all heating and power stations, all power plants, all traction substations, all power lines, all railway hubs,” said Bogdan Bezpalko, a member of the Kremlin’s Council on Interethnic Relations. “Then, Ukraine will descend into cold and darkness,” Bezpalko said on state television. “They won’t be able to bring in ammunition and fuel and then the Ukrainian army will turn into a crowd of armed men with chunks of iron.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/14/russia-missiles-infrastructure-war-ukraine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 17 minutes ago, Tiberius said: They tried. Putin would not listen to anything. So your position is really silly It takes two to tango. Putin did not want to dance So what we have now is the best a civilized world can do? Sure! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: So what we have now is the best a civilized world can do? Sure! Yes, standing up to aggression is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Yes, standing up to aggression is a good thing. As long as it takes, right? That’s the current party line. Pathetic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDD Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 Catch 22... Ukraine thinks they can win and they're royally pi$$ed because of the Russian atrocities. They won't stop fighting, so we have two options: weapons or no weapons. We choose weapons because we are America and we do that pretty well and we'll run this pony till it can't run no more as long as it's hurting Putin who has put himself firmly in a bad spot. If we chose no weapons then Russia would have enough of a victory that they could propagandize it while they put further economic pressure on Europe along with terrorizing, killing, and raping Ukranian citizens to an even greater extent. There's no perfect response by us right now and there's no avenue for peace when you have an aggressive country invading a neutral one and committing atrocities and destroying its infrastructure. Ukranians have EVERYTHING to fight for right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 28 minutes ago, LDD said: Catch 22... Ukraine thinks they can win and they're royally pi$$ed because of the Russian atrocities. They won't stop fighting, so we have two options: weapons or no weapons. We choose weapons because we are America and we do that pretty well and we'll run this pony till it can't run no more as long as it's hurting Putin who has put himself firmly in a bad spot. If we chose no weapons then Russia would have enough of a victory that they could propagandize it while they put further economic pressure on Europe along with terrorizing, killing, and raping Ukranian citizens to an even greater extent. There's no perfect response by us right now and there's no avenue for peace when you have an aggressive country invading a neutral one and committing atrocities and destroying its infrastructure. Ukranians have EVERYTHING to fight for right now. What you’re describing is pretty much the same in every street or playground fight. Then someone from the outside steps in and breaks it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: What you’re describing is pretty much the same in every street or playground fight. Then someone from the outside steps in and breaks it up. That's a cool sound bite/phrase you keep using, do you have any actual ideas? I mean what does that even look like because teachers do that by going in and restraining the kids, pretty sure that looks like WW3/Nuclear Armagedón when it's the U.S. trying to do that with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 26 minutes ago, Warcodered said: That's a cool sound bite/phrase you keep using, do you have any actual ideas? I mean what does that even look like because teachers do that by going in and restraining the kids, pretty sure that looks like WW3/Nuclear Armagedón when it's the U.S. trying to do that with Russia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s how disputes are settled every day everywhere. Both sides go into the discussions sure they are 100% in the right and by the end of the process a solution is reached that isn’t mutual destruction. This doesn’t work on the first day of a dispute but after length of time and the amount of death and destruction we’ve seen in this one (to pretty much a back and forth stalemate) you’d be shocked at how quickly this would be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdmoreRyno Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 3 hours ago, Tiberius said: Why? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and do what they want This is the only way we can work on stopping this war. US is one of the cases with Russia invading the Ukraine. We poked the bear for YEARS now with Ukraine and Russia and we are seeing the results. Our "leadership" could help put an end to this... today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 10 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: This is the only way we can work on stopping this war. US is one of the cases with Russia invading the Ukraine. We poked the bear for YEARS now with Ukraine and Russia and we are seeing the results. Our "leadership" could help put an end to this... today. Oh, we poked them, huh? Ya, whatever. You make it sound just like the invasion was our fault. Whatever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdmoreRyno Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Oh, we poked them, huh? Ya, whatever. You make it sound just like the invasion was our fault. Whatever Dude, we were complaisant in the whole thing and have been for YEEEEEEEEEEARS. WAY before Biden and Trump. You're falling for the media narrative. Completely. NATO is also largely complaisant. NATO keeps moving East. Ever since the fall of the USSR. Then in 2014, the Ukrainian coup was the real start to the dominoes. A coup that supported by the West and US. WE helped start this and kept adding to it. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ 1 minute ago, ArdmoreRyno said: Dude, we were complaisant in the whole thing and have been for YEEEEEEEEEEARS. WAY before Biden and Trump. You're falling for the media narrative. Completely. NATO is also largely complaisant. NATO keeps moving East. Ever since the fall of the USSR. Then in 2014, the Ukrainian coup was the real start to the dominoes. A coup that supported by the West and US. WE helped start this and kept adding to it. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://www.cc.com/video/8067fc/the-colbert-report-crisis-in-ukraine-gideon-rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdmoreRyno Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 5 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: Dude, we were complaisant in the whole thing and have been for YEEEEEEEEEEARS. WAY before Biden and Trump. You're falling for the media narrative. Completely. NATO is also largely complaisant. NATO keeps moving East. Ever since the fall of the USSR. Then in 2014, the Ukrainian coup was the real start to the dominoes. A coup that supported by the West and US. WE helped start this and kept adding to it. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://www.cc.com/video/8067fc/the-colbert-report-crisis-in-ukraine-gideon-rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 24 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Oh, we poked them, huh? Ya, whatever. You make it sound just like the invasion was our fault. Whatever I’m sorry, that’s too many whatever’s for one post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 6 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said: Dude, we were complaisant in the whole thing and have been for YEEEEEEEEEEARS. WAY before Biden and Trump. You're falling for the media narrative. Completely. NATO is also largely complaisant. NATO keeps moving East. Ever since the fall of the USSR. Then in 2014, the Ukrainian coup was the real start to the dominoes. A coup that supported by the West and US. WE helped start this and kept adding to it. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://www.cc.com/video/8067fc/the-colbert-report-crisis-in-ukraine-gideon-rose Media narrative? Oh brother. A defensive alliance adding other democratic members is not a reason to say we are kicking the bear. Good for NATO. If Russia and their authoritarian government don't like it, that's too bad. The Ukrainian fight to be out from under Russian corruption and influence is all good. Freedom fights are what we should be doing. Do we support democracy around the world when we can? yes, guilty as charged. So what? Any suggestion at all the Russia is a victim or was justified in its murderous actions is just you following some right wing MEDIA narrative Its not the media that tells us that isolationism has a bad history. Hitler was very happy with the isolationist movements that let him do whatever he wanted to defenseless people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArdmoreRyno Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Media narrative? Oh brother. A defensive alliance adding other democratic members is not a reason to say we are kicking the bear. Good for NATO. If Russia and their authoritarian government don't like it, that's too bad. The Ukrainian fight to be out from under Russian corruption and influence is all good. Freedom fights are what we should be doing. Do we support democracy around the world when we can? yes, guilty as charged. So what? Any suggestion at all the Russia is a victim or was justified in its murderous actions is just you following some right wing MEDIA narrative Its not the media that tells us that isolationism has a bad history. Hitler was very happy with the isolationist movements that let him do whatever he wanted to defenseless people. Yes or no... are we in a proxy war with Russia right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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