Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tommy Callahan]

5 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Kick Russia in the nuts, get them out of disputed territory and return the Donbas to Ukraine. The world then sees they are not a threat for anything, Putin is overthrown and Russia gets a leader that helps them join the modern age. Well, a guy can dream anyways! 

So?

thats about the first time someone said the goal. might be a hard sell after dun bus and Crimea Elections last year...

 

But your talking DMZ at the pre 2014 euro maiden, counter revolution line?  Who maintains that?

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Putin loses, that’s the plan 

That's an objective, not a plan.  We agree on the objective but I expect we might disagree on the "plan".

 

The original "plan" was to impose sanctions on Russia and seize and freeze central bank assets and those of key confidants of Putin in order to squeeze them into submission.  Win the conflict economically, cause political trouble for Putin at home, and allow Ukrainian forces to prevail on the battlefield.  That didn't work.  Sanctions had little impact.  Russian planners had prepared them for those actions.  They can effectively execute trade and commerce outside the dollar based financial system.  And are teaching others to do the same. 

 

Right now I'm not sure what the plan is other than to continue this dance of increasing escalations between Russia and US/NATO/Ukraine in the belief that both sides think at some point the other side is going to back down.  You seem to believe there will be some point where Ukraine will achieve victory on the battlefield or the Russians will conclude the war is not winnable and will retreat back to within their borders.  I disagree.  I don't see Ukraine achieving a military victory or Russia and Putin backing down.  And right now, although there are discussions within NATO countries about the logistics of armaments, I don't see any signs the US side will back down either.  Or any mutual recognition that the only path to a solution and outcome is negotiating some settlement between the parties. 

 

So for me that escalation path points to the ultimate escalation.  Someplace nobody wants to go.  But here we are racing down that path.  That's my concern.  Their "plan" is nothing short of taking the risk of nuclear annihilation and killing every living thing on Earth to achieve "victory" nobody will be around the celebrate.  That's not being an isolationist or appeasing Putin.  That's a perspective of logic and sanity in the face of the insanity of those in charge taking us all down a dark path.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

That's an objective, not a plan.  We agree on the objective but I expect we might disagree on the "plan".

 

The original "plan" was to impose sanctions on Russia and seize and freeze central bank assets and those of key confidants of Putin in order to squeeze them into submission.  Win the conflict economically, cause political trouble for Putin at home, and allow Ukrainian forces to prevail on the battlefield.  That didn't work.  Sanctions had little impact.  Russian planners had prepared them for those actions.  They can effectively execute trade and commerce outside the dollar based financial system.  And are teaching others to do the same. 

 

Right now I'm not sure what the plan is other than to continue this dance of increasing escalations between Russia and US/NATO/Ukraine in the belief that both sides think at some point the other side is going to back down.  You seem to believe there will be some point where Ukraine will achieve victory on the battlefield or the Russians will conclude the war is not winnable and will retreat back to within their borders.  I disagree.  I don't see Ukraine achieving a military victory or Russia and Putin backing down.  And right now, although there are discussions within NATO countries about the logistics of armaments, I don't see any signs the US side will back down either.  Or any mutual recognition that the only path to a solution and outcome is negotiating some settlement between the parties. 

 

So for me that escalation path points to the ultimate escalation.  Someplace nobody wants to go.  But here we are racing down that path.  That's my concern.  Their "plan" is nothing short of taking the risk of nuclear annihilation and killing every living thing on Earth to achieve "victory" nobody will be around the celebrate.  

 

 

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

So the "plan" is to ignore all potential catastrophic consequences and risks up to and including the extinction of all life on Earth to "show them" you mean business?

[B-Man]

 

 

I think having the "sirens blare" was a nice fake touch.

 

 

 

Damn Reuters, ruining everything.

 

 

 

.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So the "plan" is to ignore all potential catastrophic consequences and risks up to and including the extinction of all life on Earth to "show them" you mean business?

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

[Coffeesforclosers]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

 

Be fair to Putin. He's been threatening to nuke everyone since the beginning of the war. And the whole world knows Russian policy is to nuke everyone who invades Russian Territory.

 

Look at the recent nuclear strikes in Kherson Oblast. Ukraine attacked it on August 29th, 2022. Russia declared it part of Russia on September 30th, 2022. Ukraine liberated all of Kherson up to the Dnipro River by November 11, 2022. Russia nuked Ukraine on November 12th, in accordance with its longstanding policy.

 

Putin isn't some candyass that lets people drive tanks over his red lines. He follows through. 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[All_Pro_Bills]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

That outcome is an extremist position that isn't going to happen regardless of the circumstances that end the conflict.    

[Tommy Callahan]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

The autocratic world hates democracy and they don’t care a fig about their people and will use them up to hurt democracy and our interests. We are showing we will stand by a fellow democracy in its hour of need. That’s a good signal to send 

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

[Big Blitz]

 

 

 

Interesting 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

A coup engineered by the US State Department's Victoria Nuland against a democratically elected government because they wouldn't play ball with Washington.  Who just so happens to be back in charge of the operation after a 4 year vacation 2017 through 2020.  Washington loves democracies but they also love monarchies, dictatorships, and theocracies as long as they go along with the regimes objectives and rules.  When they step out of line, then the plot changes. 

 

But the fools that think our government hold a special place in its heart exclusively reserved for democracies will believe what they want to believe.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

What ones?  I mean you obviously dont mean the elections held in the disputed regions. like eff that democracy.

 

And in 2014 Ukraine had a euro maiden. a revolution.  kind of opposite of DEMOCRACY.

 

 

Putin’s elections? Where 120% of the people voted for Russia? 

17 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

A coup engineered by the US State Department's Victoria Nuland against a democratically elected government because they wouldn't play ball with Washington.  Who just so happens to be back in charge of the operation after a 4 year vacation 2017 through 2020.  Washington loves democracies but they also love monarchies, dictatorships, and theocracies as long as they go along with the regimes objectives and rules.  When they step out of line, then the plot changes. 

 

But the fools that think our government hold a special place in its heart exclusively reserved for democracies will believe what they want to believe.

You mean where the Russian backed government—along with Paul Manafort!!— began killing protesters? 

 

 

[Tiberius]

50 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Interesting 

 

 

The same Trump who came within an ace of war against Iran? 
 

And why was he going to do that? Because they hit Saudi Arabia… 

 

Ya, Trump who increased military spending, sure he is against the military industrial complex. 
 

[JDHillFan]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

No, not ignore. Just don’t let them black mail us. 
 

You think Ukraine should of just of been allowed to be enslaved, is that correct? Just appease Putin 

I stood with our good American president when he said a minor incursion was ok. I don’t know why he said that but who am I to question?

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

I stood with our good American president when he said a minor incursion was ok. I don’t know why he said that but who am I to question?

But not when he began sending material support to stop Putin? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

You mean where the Russian backed government—along with Paul Manafort!!— began killing protesters? 

 

 

You're just repeating a false narrative.  Forensic investigations proved shots were fired from locations different than those where officers implicated by the coup instigators were locating during the event.   No officer was arrested, tried, or convicted of killing any protesters during the maiden riots dispute your contention they somehow killed protesters.  The event proved a catalyst and convenient excuse to overthrow the elected government.   But the US government would never participate in such a nefarious action because we always wear the good guy hats.  Even through I could name about 3 dozen times Washington has toppled foreign governments.  But you can look it up too if you'd like.

Edited February 20, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

The same Trump who came within an ace of war against Iran? 
 

And why was he going to do that? Because they hit Saudi Arabia… 

 

 

This is about the fifth time you have made this claim.

What is it based on?

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

This is about the fifth time you have made this claim.

What is it based on?

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

13 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You're just repeating a false narrative.  Forensic investigations proved shots were fired from locations different than those where officers implicated by the coup instigators were locating during the event.   No officer was arrested, tried, or convicted of killing any protesters during the maiden riots dispute your contention they somehow killed protesters.  The event proved a catalyst and convenient excuse to overthrow the elected government.   But the US government would never participate in such a nefarious action because we always wear the good guy hats.  Even through I could name about 3 dozen times Washington has toppled foreign governments.  But you can look it up too if you'd like.

So in your view, Biden is the bad guy, Putin is only reacting to our aggression and we need to leave Russia to do its bloody deeds 

[Demongyz]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

So in your view, Biden is the bad guy, Putin is only reacting to our aggression and we need to leave Russia to do its bloody deeds 

How many hours? infinity?

[sherpa]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Iranian drones attacked a Saudi oil facility and we can within hours of attacking Iran. 
 

Is my memory wrong? 

 

I'm not sure of your memory.

Neither am I sure that we came within hours of attacking Iran.

What info do you have that states we were within  hours....