two years of free preschool plus two years of free community college

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 minutes ago, Governor said:

I’m not a progressive. There should be zero policy geared towards helping middle class homeowners with kids. The entire tax code and every other existing policy is already in place to lift up that group. 
 

There should also be zero policy geared specifically for children and parents. It just isn’t sound policy.

 

If a policy/program isn’t good enough and available for every American citizen, then it isn’t sound policy and shouldn’t be passed.

Most republican post ever

DJT may recruit you to run his campaign 

[reddogblitz]

3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Most republican post ever

DJT may recruit you to run his campaign 

 

I'm starting to wonder if someone has cracked the @Governor account, or someone handed him a Republican beer at Hammer's or something.

[Governor]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Most republican post ever

Bootstraps. 
 

The child tax credit is the worst policy I’ve ever seen. That needs to be axed ASAP. The only reason it passed is because lawmakers were afraid to vote against something for “the children.” That’s not how Washington should be operating. 
 

The homeless veteran without kids needs help too. Why can’t he get it?

 

 

[Governor]

21 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm starting to wonder if someone has cracked the @Governor account, or someone handed him a Republican beer at Hammer's or something.

I’m extremely conservative when it comes to means-testing and children. Lol.
 

It’s real simple. If the bill on the floor isn’t good for every American, then it isn’t good for any American.

 

No more splitting us up into groups and creating division, which leads to people thinking they’re owed something or they earned it and this person doesn’t deserve this or that for whatever reason.

 

I also support UBI and THEN eliminating every other program out there, social security, children stuff, welfare, etc.

 

Just have 1 program for everyone. It’s already set up for the IRS to dump money in everyone’s accounts. Give it to the wealthy also and just get it back in taxes at the end of the year.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Governor

[reddogblitz]

32 minutes ago, Governor said:

No more splitting us up into groups and creating division, which leads to people thinking they’re owed something or they earned it and this person doesn’t deserve this or that for whatever reason.

 

One thing my Dad used to say about when the government gives someone money they didn't earn, what they're really telling them is "you poor SOB, you just can't make it on your own so we gotta help you, you poor slob".  

 

And the $300 per child is a great incentive to not better yourself but instead depend on the $300.  When my kids were young and I had little money I read computer books at night to improve my skills to make more money to better support my kids. Had I been receiving $900 per month from the feds I'm not so sure I would have done that. Wouldn't need to.

 

And reading the computer books at night DID help me get a better job.  

[unbillievable]

4 hours ago, Pokebball said:

The science is probably too deep for a discussion on this board, but it has clearly been shown that a child's cognitive learning ability begins around 2 yrs of age.  

 

I'm not sure what you're background has to do with anything.  I'm not saying success isn't possible without it.

That just proves that we are replacing parents with schools. Academically speaking, there is no difference between those who attended pre-school or not. However, it can shape behavior dramatically.

 

2 more years of indoctrination by the state!

[reddogblitz]

15 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

That just proves that we are replacing parents with schools. Academically speaking, there is no difference between those who attended pre-school or not. However, it can shape behavior dramatically.

 

2 more years of indoctrination by the state!

 

It does seem like we are replacing parents with schools. I guess we have to nowadays cuz Moms (and Dads if there is one) have to work for the man.

 

But looking at an ad for Pre K, what they do sounds an awful lot like what my Mom did for me before I got to first grade.

 

Quote

Children are engaged in learning through play and delighting in hands-on activities.

 

There is a daily schedule of well-planned activities that promote meaningful learning.

 

Adults give students helpful feedback, praise and encouragement.

 

Staff is well trained and knowledgeable and understand how children grow and develop.

 

Children engage in daily practice for fine motor skills to develop hand strength for writing. Activities may include: coloring, writing practice, painting, snipping paper with scissors, play-doh activities, stringing beads, and using Legos.

 

Teachers make a point to clearly teach the letters and the sounds they make; they point out and describe the letter shape, they model the sounds they make, and guide students in practicing to write them. These concepts are not for students to figure out on their own, left to chance, or for only practicing at home.

 

Daily literacy activities include teacher read alouds, singing nursery rhymes, learning letters of the alphabet and the learning sounds of letters.

 

Children are busy and motivated learners using toys, dramatic play (dress up), games, art, and music throughout the day.

 

https://www.homereadinghelper.org/what-is-pre-k/

[Pokebball]

9 hours ago, unbillievable said:

That just proves that we are replacing parents with schools. Academically speaking, there is no difference between those who attended pre-school or not. However, it can shape behavior dramatically.

 

2 more years of indoctrination by the state!

Kids with active parents are at a significant advantage, with or without public education, with or without early education.

 

Understanding the difference between daycare and early education is an important difference.

 

Do you have a link to support your claim regarding there being no difference between those that attended early education and those that didn't?  I've read quite a bit that supports just the opposite.

 

edit - let me add that I'm a Republican.  My opinion comes from years of serving on the board of an early education organization.  I'm not for indoctrination but rather doing what's best for our kiddos.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Pokebball

[SoCal Deek]

All of this is just another aimless expansion of the public sector. Little good will come if it but great expense will be ‘invested’.

 

If after 13 years, soon to be 15 years of taxpayer funded schooling, you haven’t either learned enough, or been taught enough, to get a relatively decent job what makes anyone think another two free years will be the magic pill? Answer: it won’t! 

[unbillievable]

13 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Kids with active parents are at a significant advantage, with or without public education, with or without early education.

 

Understanding the difference between daycare and early education is an important difference.

 

Do you have a link to support your claim regarding there being no difference between those that attended early education and those that didn't?  I've read quite a bit that supports just the opposite.

 

edit - let me add that I'm a Republican.  My opinion comes from years of serving on the board of an early education organization.  I'm not for indoctrination but rather doing what's best for our kiddos.

 

I guess I should have included that it made little difference LONG TERM, academically.

 

The differences were behavioral more than academic. The studies showed that kids that attended pre-school were more prepared, but the advantage disappeared by middle school. (in terms of grades). In fact, it may have hurt them.

 

It prompted a shift towards more social "play" based curriculum; which actually does help create a better person. The biggest differences were in low-income children who benefited from having the structure, essentially replacing an absentee parent with school.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201505/early-academic-training-produces-long-term-harm

 

Just proves my point that we're trying to replace parents.

[unbillievable]

14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

All of this is just another aimless expansion of the public sector. Little good will come if it but great expense will be ‘invested’.

 

If after 13 years, soon to be 15 years of taxpayer funded schooling, you haven’t either learned enough, or been taught enough, to get a relatively decent job what makes anyone think another two free years will be the magic pill? Answer: it won’t! 

 

College students vote Democrat. They typically don't migrate right until they get a job. That's guaranteeing four more years of indoctrination.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by unbillievable

[Pokebball]

10 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

 

I guess I should have included that it made little difference LONG TERM, academically.

 

The differences were behavioral more than academic. The studies showed that kids that attended pre-school were more prepared, but the advantage disappeared by middle school. (in terms of grades). In fact, it may have hurt them.

 

It prompted a shift towards more social "play" based curriculum; which actually does help create a better person. The biggest differences were in low-income children who benefited from having the structure, essentially replacing an absentee parent with school.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201505/early-academic-training-produces-long-term-harm

 

Just proves my point that we're trying to replace parents.

All studies and research need to be considered and evaluated.  As I shared with you, there are many that support early education.

 

I think your point about replacing parents is a ruse.  In almost all cases, active parents produce better results.  Most of the early education programs I'm familiar with strongly encourage (if not require) active parents.  In fact, as early education remains most voluntary at this time, it's the active parents that are seeking out these programs.

 

We'll just need to agree to disagree with each other on this.

[Pokebball]

12 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

 

College students vote Democrat. They typically don't migrate right until they get a job. That's guaranteeing four more years of indoctrination.

 

 

 

 

I think I'm hearing that your solution to ending indoctrination is to end education?

 

I'm hopeful we can find a solution that doesn't require us flush education.

[SoCal Deek]

14 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

 

College students vote Democrat. They typically don't migrate right until they get a job. That's guaranteeing four more years of indoctrination.

 

 

 

 

I honestly think this has less to do with that than it does in the ever expanding public sector. Nothing like guaranteeing four more years of teachers union membership support!  More insider trading with your tax dollars.

[unbillievable]

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

I think I'm hearing that your solution to ending indoctrination is to end education?

 

I'm hopeful we can find a solution that doesn't require us flush education.

 

My hopeful side wants the solution to be about keeping the focus of school towards Academics, and leave the parenting to parents.

 

It's my opinion that adding 2 years of pre-school is directly replacing parents during the child's behavioral development.

[Governor]

10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

It does seem like we are replacing parents with schools. I guess we have to nowadays cuz Moms (and Dads if there is one) have to work for the man.

 

But looking at an ad for Pre K, what they do sounds an awful lot like what my Mom did for me before I got to first grade.

 

 

https://www.homereadinghelper.org/what-is-pre-k/

That seems to be the reality of the situation which causes me to lash out. I wouldn’t even consider having kids unless I was still pulling in 175k-200k. It just doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

My parents weren’t nasty about it, but it was definitely frowned upon to collect unemployment, etc. it’s a little different in NJ tho since we pay into it.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Governor said:

That seems to be the reality of the situation which causes me to lash out. I wouldn’t even consider having kids unless I was still pulling in 175k-200k. It just doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

My parents weren’t nasty about it, but it was definitely frowned upon to collect unemployment, etc. it’s a little different in NJ tho since we pay into it.

What? That’s your prerequisite for having kids? Your income status? Oh brother!

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, unbillievable said:

 

My hopeful side wants the solution to be about keeping the focus of school towards Academics, and leave the parenting to parents.

 

It's my opinion that adding 2 years of pre-school is directly replacing parents during the child's behavioral development.

My counterpoint is it replaces parents only if the parents disengage.  Those that will disengage are probably already disengaged.  Those that don't, the kiddo further succeeds.

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

My counterpoint is it replaces parents only if the parents disengage.  Those that will disengage are probably already disengaged.  Those that don't, the kiddo further succeeds.

You’d like to think so but schools shouldn’t be in the social engineering business. It’s simply not fair to the kids. It puts the kids in the awkward position of being at odds with their parents…especially those parents that are ‘engaged’. 
 

If our schools are so good that they’ve completed all the required curriculum (which we know isn’t true) then just let the kids play solitaire the rest of the day! 

[Pokebball]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

You’d like to think so but schools shouldn’t be in the social engineering business. It’s simply not fair to the kids. It puts the kids in the awkward position of being at odds with their parents…especially those parents that are ‘engaged’. 
 

If our schools are so good that they’ve completed all the required curriculum (which we know isn’t true) then just let the kids play solitaire the rest of the day! 

Schools shouldn't be in the social engineering business.

[dpberr]

College shouldn't be free.  I'd rather reimburse two years of completed college at 100%, and you have to have a B average.  First-time college students only, and you get one crack at it.  Two years covers community college, most trade schools, and gets a bachelor's degree student 50% off.  

 

There's practical steps to improving the student debt situation but opening the floodgates without any benchmarks for the student to hit is just sealing the doom of the schools themselves.  

 

 

[Tenhigh]

19 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm starting to wonder if someone has cracked the @Governor account, or someone handed him a Republican beer at Hammer's or something.

I think he is either just cheap or hates kids. 

[Tenhigh]

19 hours ago, Governor said:

I’m extremely conservative when it comes to means-testing and children. Lol.
 

It’s real simple. If the bill on the floor isn’t good for every American, then it isn’t good for any American.

 

No more splitting us up into groups and creating division, which leads to people thinking they’re owed something or they earned it and this person doesn’t deserve this or that for whatever reason.

 

I also support UBI and THEN eliminating every other program out there, social security, children stuff, welfare, etc.

 

Just have 1 program for everyone. It’s already set up for the IRS to dump money in everyone’s accounts. Give it to the wealthy also and just get it back in taxes at the end of the year.

UBI on its own is crazy. Who pays for those that choose not to work?  I'd be more willing to support it only if there was some sort of UBE.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

I think he is either just cheap or hates kids. 

Both… but by putting an actual issue on the table we have all learned he’s like those people they interview on comedy shows that swear they are staunch democrats but then agree with every Republican platform position because they don’t actually know the stances on the issues outside the propaganda.

 

Isn’t it amazing many of the “trumpers” are open to the thought process while staunch democrats are opposed to trying to functionally educate more people as a reasonable investment?

 

eye opening 

[SoCal Deek]

21 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Both… but by putting an actual issue on the table we have all learned he’s like those people they interview on comedy shows that swear they are staunch democrats but then agree with every Republican platform position because they don’t actually know the stances on the issues outside the propaganda.

 

Isn’t it amazing many of the “trumpers” are open to the thought process while staunch democrats are opposed to trying to functionally educate more people as a reasonable investment?

 

eye opening 

Bingo

Everything is great so long as you believe someone else is paying for it! 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Bingo

Everything is great so long as you believe someone else is paying for it! 

With great difficulty I once arrived at the conclusion that Republicans were probably the lesser of the two evils, because at least they pretended to want to reduce govt power. But then DJT came along… then the world seemed like it’s probably just going to end. Then Biden came… oh yeah I’ll mess it up faster! 

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

With great difficulty I once arrived at the conclusion that Republicans were probably the lesser of the two evils, because at least they pretended to want to reduce govt power. But then DJT came along… then the world seemed like it’s probably just going to end. Then Biden came… oh yeah I’ll mess it up faster! 

I’ve never been a party affiliated guy. I don’t believe either side of the aisle has any real interest in helping the American taxpayers. This is not right against left. It’s insider against outsider. Pure and simple. 

[Governor]

4 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

UBI on its own is crazy. Who pays for those that choose not to work?  I'd be more willing to support it only if there was some sort of UBE.

The same people who pay for our bloated military budget, child tax credits, corporate farm subsidies, and failing HC system.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

47 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve never been a party affiliated guy. I don’t believe either side of the aisle has any real interest in helping the American taxpayers. This is not right against left. It’s insider against outsider. Pure and simple. 

There aren’t any intelligent liberals on the board. That is why there is no discussion 

 

you’ve just got the homeless and the trolls that’s it right 

 

[SoCal Deek]

9 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

There aren’t any intelligent liberals on the board. That is why there is no discussion 

 

you’ve just got the homeless and the trolls that’s it right 

 

Here we disagree. I believe there are quite a few intelligent liberals on this board. However, I think they’re counting on the conservatives to give up out of sheer exhaustion and convince everyone to simply throw all their assets on the big altar of redistribution. Only a fool falls for the siren’s song of ‘fairness’

, ‘victimhood’ and ‘collectivism’.  The result is not universal prosperity. It’s universal poverty. We’ve seen how the movie ends….and it’s really ugly!

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

26 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Here we disagree. I believe there are quite a few intelligent liberals on this board. However, I think they’re counting on the conservatives to give up out of sheer exhaustion and convince everyone to simply throw all their assets on the big altar of redistribution. Only a fool falls for the siren’s song of ‘fairness’

, ‘victimhood’ and ‘collectivism’.  The result is not universal prosperity. It’s universal poverty. We’ve seen how the movie ends….and it’s really ugly!

Fair there have been some but their voices are drowned out by the party liners. 

 

I guess it’s a microcosm of our reality on both sides of the aisle. 
 

just like no true independent minded person with legitimately conservative values really looks a DJT and says - yeah he stands for everything I believe. He was more of an grudging toleration that used his pathological self promotion capability to become some sort of savior to a sub group. 
 

 

Hell the guy was a registered democrat at one point. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 hours ago, Governor said:

The same people who pay for our bloated military budget, child tax credits, corporate farm subsidies, and failing HC system.

It’s all a legitimate problem right? 
 

of all this stuff, maybe corporate farm subsidies has merit because production of food is worth propping up. 
 

but you are hitting on numerous fine examples of why big federal government is bad. 

[SoCal Deek]

11 hours ago, Governor said:

The same people who pay for our bloated military budget, child tax credits, corporate farm subsidies, and failing HC system.

Our healthcare system isn’t failing. Our health INSURANCE and LEGAL system are both challenged. The ‘problem’ with our health care system is that we’ve advanced medicine to a point where our form of treatment and extension of life expectancy have likely advanced  beyond the limits of what any society can afford. But our health care is better than at any point in human history. 

[Governor]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

It’s all a legitimate problem right? 
 

of all this stuff, maybe corporate farm subsidies has merit because production of food is worth propping up. 
 

but you are hitting on numerous fine examples of why big federal government is bad. 

Get a better job dude. I’m not paying for your preschool. Lol. You just want the kids out of the house and you want me to fund it.

 

Your kids should be in private school anyway. Public schools bad. Indoctrination and no baby Jesus!

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

It’s all a legitimate problem right? 
 

of all this stuff, maybe corporate farm subsidies has merit because production of food is worth propping up. 
 

but you are hitting on numerous fine examples of why big federal government is bad. 

UBI is a drop in the well each year compared to what we have to spend restoring the destroyed economy every Republican president has left us in our lifetime. It’s not close either.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Governor

[Governor]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Our healthcare system isn’t failing. Our health INSURANCE and LEGAL system are both challenged. The ‘problem’ with our health care system is that we’ve advanced medicine to a point where our form of treatment and extension of life expectancy have likely advanced  beyond the limits of what any society can afford. But our health care is better than at any point in human history. 

The medicine I’m taking costs 30k per month. 
 

The problem is cost of services and cost of drugs.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, Governor said:

Get a better job dude. I’m not paying for your preschool. Lol. You just want the kids out of the house and you want me to fund it.

 

Your kids should be in private school anyway. Public schools bad. Indoctrination and no baby Jesus!

you’re not kidding… I keep losing junior to mid level folks on my team to Google and Amazon and they are tripling their six figure salaries. 
 

We’ve been looking at private schools. Our public ones are very good which is why we picked our overpriced deferred maintenance fixer upper house, but private schools around here are incredible… 

1 minute ago, Governor said:

The medicine I’m taking costs 30k per month. 
 

The problem is cost of services and cost of drugs.

You smoke $30k per month? 

[Tenhigh]

13 hours ago, Governor said:

The same people who pay for our bloated military budget, child tax credits, corporate farm subsidies, and failing HC system.

So what is the incentive to work if you have a UBI?

[Governor]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

you’re not kidding… I keep losing junior to mid level folks on my team to Google and Amazon and they are tripling their six figure salaries. 
 

We’ve been looking at private schools. Our public ones are very good which is why we picked our overpriced deferred maintenance fixer upper house, but private schools around here are incredible… 

You smoke $30k per month? 

That’s $300 per month….but I sell it.

4 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

So what is the incentive to work if you have a UBI?

Lol. You can’t live on $1000 per month. Everyone would still need to work. As automation reduces the labor needed in manufacturing and retail, there won’t be FT work for everyone. That’s over half of the adult jobs in this country.

 

You have to view it like stimulus, just like the 600/300 pandemic unemployment. That was the test case. You give people money so they spend it, otherwise the entire economy would’ve collapsed in April 2020 and everyone’s 401k would be gone today.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Governor

[Governor]

23 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

you’re not kidding… I keep losing junior to mid level folks on my team to Google and Amazon and they are tripling their six figure salaries. 
 

We’ve been looking at private schools. Our public ones are very good which is why we picked our overpriced deferred maintenance fixer upper house, but private schools around here are incredible… 

You smoke $30k per month? 

You’re area has a poor “walkability” score and it’s nothing but rebel flags and punisher shirts.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Governor said:

You’re area has a poor “walkability” score and it’s nothing but rebel flags and punisher shirts.

That local organic market that was coming in the new development across the street balked with the pandemic. I was bummed because it would’ve probably bumped us into the next walk ability tier. 
 

You’re area has poor education 😆