Bill from NYC Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I dont know what is going to happen in terms of any trade, but 14 spots in round 2 is not such a paltry sum. Remember, when the Bills drafted Clements (02?) they moved down 7 spots in round 1 and were compensated with a second round pick. Again, I am making zero predictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Kirwan was on Total Access tonight, he said the deal will be Henry for Shelton straight up and it will happen 1 or 2 days before the draft. I caught the same segment last night, but I didn't quite get teh same thing out of it. Actually I remember thinking at the time that his answer was worder in a very particular (and even peculiar) manner because he wasn't sure whether he was right or not and he wanted to cover his rump. I thought he said something along the lines of "The only thing that had been holding this trade up was the teams' disagreement on what other compensations should be involved aside from the two players, and that has been squared away now". So after talking to TD, he thought it might be an agreed upon deal but he wasn't sure exactly what else might be involved or for that matter if there even was anything else invloved. I get the feeling nobody is going to know for sure until Arizona is actually on the clock with their #44 pick. Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 3rd worst i've heard#1 Herschel Walker #2 Rob Johnson 296951[/snapback] At least someone has some perspective on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I have no problem with this deal if it is Henry and the Bills 2nd round pick to move up 14 spots in the draft. I would feel a little better about it even if the Cards threw in a 4th rounder or something, but think about what Henry really means to this team right now going into 2005. Clearly Henry does not want to stay in Buffalo and I were a member of the Buffalo Bills, I would not want to have a guy on my team who is not going to give maximum effort. Sure he might be valuable if Willis gets hurt, but I would rather see the Bills move up in the draft, maybe they can get Baas or Nugent even, and they can find a backup RB who is perhaps a better receiving back, or someone who will block for the QB, and who WANTS to be with the Buffalo Bills. Make the deal TD, even if it does not include Shelton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunTheBall Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I have no problem with this deal if it is Henry and the Bills 2nd round pick to move up 14 spots in the draft. I would feel a little better about it even if the Cards threw in a 4th rounder or something, but think about what Henry really means to this team right now going into 2005. 297170[/snapback] I'd give up Henry for AZs second round pick. To think that we'd give up Henry and our 2nd rounder to move up only 14 spots is ridiculous. RTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I'd give up Henry for AZs second round pick. To think that we'd give up Henry and our 2nd rounder to move up only 14 spots is ridiculous. RTB 297181[/snapback] On the surface it does sound unfair but i look at it this way: Maybe TD does not want to pay 2nd round money to 2 picks and just wants one 2nd round pick and maybe he will go after someone after the June 1st cuts. I know Henry had 2 very good seasons for the Bills, but that is history. Think in terms of what can he bring to the Buffalo Bills in 2005 and beyond. To me, the value of that is not much at all. Ask yourself this question too: If moving up 14 spots in the NFL Draft is the ONLY way the Bills could secure a kicker who can be a pure difference maker, or a center who can anchor the OL for the next several years, isn' it worth it to make the deal for a player we KNOW is unhappy and will not produce ANYTHING for the Buffalo Bills beyond this season? What Im saying is, if this is the only option the Bills have with the Cardinals and this is the best offer for Henry, I would do it in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomcat Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I dont know what is going to happen in terms of any trade, but 14 spots in round 2 is not such a paltry sum. Remember, when the Bills drafted Clements (02?) they moved down 7 spots in round 1 and were compensated with a second round pick. Again, I am making zero predictions. 297122[/snapback] I do agree with you on the value of moving even a few picks. Thats exactly why I'm not sure we'll be able to switch second rounders(Henry/Shelton + pick)....that is a huge jump when you think about it.....I wonder if this doesn't get settled for switching third round picks or for a flat out 4th rounder......That's why if TD gets to switch 2nds....then Denny Greens is his beotch!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I just hope this isn't some kind of indicator of Henry's true trade value. I mean, look at some of the posts toward the end of last year and how people were blasting Travis here on the Wall. If there is any truth to what most were saying at that time, then how much value can he really have? Yeah, yeah, he had a couple 1,300 yard seasons and was a Pro Bowler once (due to Priest Holmes' injury). But, what if the events that happened later overshadow all of that? If that is the case, maybe his value isn't so high. That could also explain why there's not a line of GMs waiting to talk to Donahoe to pull the trigger on a deal for Travis. That would be awful, because it means we would either be stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be a backup or we'd have to take whatever we could get for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomcat Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I just hope this isn't some kind of indicator of Henry's true trade value. I mean, look at some of the posts toward the end of last year and how people were blasting Travis here on the Wall. If there is any truth to what most were saying at that time, then how much value can he really have? Yeah, yeah, he had a couple 1,300 yard seasons and was a Pro Bowler once (due to Priest Holmes' injury). But, what if the events that happened later overshadow all of that? If that is the case, maybe his value isn't so high. That could also explain why there's not a line of GMs waiting to talk to Donahoe to pull the trigger on a deal for Travis. That would be awful, because it means we would either be stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be a backup or we'd have to take whatever we could get for him. 297214[/snapback] At the very least the trade goes through even up......didn't Tom and Denny both confirm this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I just hope this isn't some kind of indicator of Henry's true trade value. I mean, look at some of the posts toward the end of last year and how people were blasting Travis here on the Wall. If there is any truth to what most were saying at that time, then how much value can he really have? Yeah, yeah, he had a couple 1,300 yard seasons and was a Pro Bowler once (due to Priest Holmes' injury). But, what if the events that happened later overshadow all of that? If that is the case, maybe his value isn't so high. That could also explain why there's not a line of GMs waiting to talk to Donahoe to pull the trigger on a deal for Travis. That would be awful, because it means we would either be stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be a backup or we'd have to take whatever we could get for him. 297214[/snapback] Speaking of trade value, on the NFL channel, Kirwan said that he thinks that Miami will fetch a 4th in 05 and a 3rd in 06 for Surtain. Looking at recent contracts, corners are a very hot commodity, yet this seemingly small price is said to be the most that the phish can get for a very good player. In a year in which there seems to be a glut of good RBs in the draft, and names like James and Alexander out there, it is hard to believe that TH has much value, especially given his obvious limitations. Once again, I am making zero predictions, but I will be flat out amazed if Green gives up Shelton AND swaps 2nd round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Speaking of trade value, on the NFL channel, Kirwan said that he thinks that Miami will fetch a 4th in 05 and a 3rd in 06 for Surtain. Looking at recent contracts, corners are a very hot commodity, yet this seemingly small price is said to be the most that the phish can get for a very good player. In a year in which there seems to be a glut of good RBs in the draft, and names like James and Alexander out there, it is hard to believe that TH has much value, especially given his obvious limitations. Once again, I am making zero predictions, but I will be flat out amazed if Green gives up Shelton AND swaps 2nd round picks. 297232[/snapback] So after posting that, are you ready to admit that the offers a team gets for a player is not a very good indication at all of the talent or worth of said player? It has been said in different spots but there are many reasons, all working concurrently and to varying degrees, as to why Travis is not getting huge offers. People here (and I am sure GMs and coaches around the league) attach different weight to each of these, and put them in various orders, but they are many, including: 1. There is a glut of good running backs in the draft, in both the first couple rounds, and in the lower rounds. 2. There are several running backs available in trade around the league, some better than Henry that aren't going for a huge price. 3. Travis's contract, while on the surface quite cheap, in reality causes his value to go way down. You give too much away and you may only have him for one year. You sign him for a long term deal and not only are you giving up something valuable to get him but you may get screwed. 4. The Bills are either strongly or desperately trying to get rid of him and you think he can be had on the cheap. 5. He was hurt last year and has a history of injury problems. 6. He has excellent proven running skills but has obviously liabilities, is our offense the best offense for a player like this. 7. He has had a history of off the field problems and isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, which happens to be hanging on the wall next to another dull tool, his agent. 8. Player trades are relatively hard to pull off in the NFL because of the draft and FA and salary cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan III Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I caught the same segment last night, but I didn't quite get teh same thing out of it. Actually I remember thinking at the time that his answer was worder in a very particular (and even peculiar) manner because he wasn't sure whether he was right or not and he wanted to cover his rump.I thought he said something along the lines of "The only thing that had been holding this trade up was the teams' disagreement on what other compensations should be involved aside from the two players, and that has been squared away now". So after talking to TD, he thought it might be an agreed upon deal but he wasn't sure exactly what else might be involved or for that matter if there even was anything else invloved. I get the feeling nobody is going to know for sure until Arizona is actually on the clock with their #44 pick. Cya 297143[/snapback] I thought he used the words "straight up".. but I was scarfing down a Panera Bread sandwich at the time.. so I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I thought he used the words "straight up".. but I was scarfing down a Panera Bread sandwich at the time.. so I could be wrong. 297472[/snapback] Pantera!!! I'm born again, with snakes eyes Becoming...God sized oh, nm you said Panera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 So after posting that, are you ready to admit that the offers a team gets for a player is not a very good indication at all of the talent or worth of said player? It has been said in different spots but there are many reasons, all working concurrently and to varying degrees, as to why Travis is not getting huge offers. People here (and I am sure GMs and coaches around the league) attach different weight to each of these, and put them in various orders, but they are many, including: 1. There is a glut of good running backs in the draft, in both the first couple rounds, and in the lower rounds. 2. There are several running backs available in trade around the league, some better than Henry that aren't going for a huge price. 3. Travis's contract, while on the surface quite cheap, in reality causes his value to go way down. You give too much away and you may only have him for one year. You sign him for a long term deal and not only are you giving up something valuable to get him but you may get screwed. 4. The Bills are either strongly or desperately trying to get rid of him and you think he can be had on the cheap. 5. He was hurt last year and has a history of injury problems. 6. He has excellent proven running skills but has obviously liabilities, is our offense the best offense for a player like this. 7. He has had a history of off the field problems and isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, which happens to be hanging on the wall next to another dull tool, his agent. 8. Player trades are relatively hard to pull off in the NFL because of the draft and FA and salary cap. 297241[/snapback] I dont know why you keep driving this home. Of course there are many factors which enter a trade. The thing is, none of them will make Henry as good as you think he is, nor perhaps as bad as I think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan III Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Pantera!!!I'm born again, with snakes eyes Becoming...God sized oh, nm you said Panera 297477[/snapback] I've got tix to this on Sat. http://www.waaf.com/index_new.shtml Vinnie, Pat, Bobzilla with Zakk.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minotaur Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I get the feeling nobody is going to know for sure until Arizona is actually on the clock with their #44 pick. I agree. Here's how I see it playing out: 1) AZ has 1-2 running backs they're "gunning" for. 2) Round 1 - Is on of those backs available? If Yes, no deal w/the Bills. If no, wait. The rest depends on #2 being a 'no.' 3a) The Bills have a player pegged for the Cards' 2nd round pick. 3b) Assuming no to #2, AZ has another back in mind at their 2nd round pick. Is he there? If yes, no trade. If no, AND the Bills' player is available, the deal is consummated. Make sense? Minotaur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I dont know how the rest of you feel but I think that a straight up even swap is a good trade..... If we get more then that....fine.....but I would be happy with a straight swap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasoninMT Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 What would be "fair" I think.... if Shelton is out of the picture (not a bad thing necessarilly as he has his own issues)... Henry for a swap of 2nd picks (14 spots) and a conditional next year based on performance... OR... Henry for a 2nd straight up (probably not going to happen)... OR... Henry and our 3rd for their 2nd... (not as happy to be honest, but I wouldn't be upset if that happened.... I would be upset if we traded Henry solely for 14 spots... that just doesn't seem like we're getting compensated... Now.... Henry has no non-trade clause I don't think.... But, he'd better not throw a hissy fit which has been somewhat reported (yet may be untrue) about playing under his current contract... Especially since if he didn't feel justly compensated by AZ, he'll be a UFA after next season... I also think that if he's having a good first half of the season, AZ will then try to extend him and if the price is right he'll do it... I know the pressure will be on him to perform, but that really doesn't change in this league... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Eric Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 3rd worst i've heard#1 Herschel Walker #2 Rob Johnson 296951[/snapback] #3 Ricky "smoke um if you got um" Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidey Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 More and more I am seeing reports with Shelton not being mentioned as part of the trade. Green also alluded to this last week. Sounds like the Bills have fallen out of favor on Shelton and maybe just looking for a trade of a pick for Henry. Humm... thinking alound but maybe it Henry and our #2 for Arizona's #2. So we basically are moving up 14 spots for Henry. 296938[/snapback] henry for their 2nd round pick straight up does the trick for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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