Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[BillsFan4]

11 hours ago, K-9 said:

If he has to be traded, it has to be to a team outside our division. Period. 
 

I like Kapanen’s game a lot, but he’s not a top six forward, imo. 

I agree. Unless a team in our division is making an offer they simply can’t turn down (big overpayment), they need to trade Risto outside the division. I would hate to have to play him 4x a year. Especially on the maple leafs. 

 

Also agree about Kapanen.

 

I feel like Ristolainen is the biggest trade chip Buffalo has left. They need to get a Risto trade right or just keep him. IMO he’s playing some of the best hockey of his Sabres career this season.

 

Id want a #2C, or at worst a very good top 6 RW that can drive play. Or maybe a package with a good top 6 winger and a stop gap 2/3C. 

 

Like i said, Risto for Kadri would have been the trade to make with the Leafs. Now that he’s gone, there’s not much the Leafs have that I would want for Risto (at least of the players they’d be willing to give up anyway). 

[ALF]

Put Skinner back on Jack's line before his confidence is ruined.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Attached is a link with Krueger on WGR addressing the Skinner issue. To summarize it Krueger is not willing to tamper with what he considers one of the top five lines with the Jack-Reinhart-Olofsson line. The solution with the Skinner malaise is to get him better players to play with in order to put him in a better position to succeed. 

 

https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/02-20-sabres-head-coach-ralph-krueger

 

The discussion about the playoffs with respect to the Sabres needs to be put in perspective. The reality is that the Sabres are not a playoff caliber team. They have the ability to compete for a bottom end playoff position but when their roster is matched with the other competing teams it has too many deficiencies to match the teams above us. 

 

The Sabres lost a gruesome game to Ottawa. The goaltending and loose play were evident. For some reason (goaltending) this matchup is difficult for the Sabres while Toronto, a much better team, is less troublesome. In the prior game the Sabres dominated a better team while were dominated by an inferior team in the next game. Problematic matchups occur in all sports. 

 

What I don't want to see is a trade made out of desperation resulting in getting less in a return that we should have gotten if we waited for the offseason. I'm not against making a deal that will better balance the roster (second line player for defenseman) prior to the trade deadline but my belief is that a better deal can be secured after the season. 

 

 

They were not dominated by a better team.  Ottawa may, MAY have outplayed buffalo for about 10 minutes of the full 60.  Hutton shat the bed giving up 4 goals in 5 minutes.   

 

Every matchup is "problematic" when you're starting goalie has a save percentage of 85% .     

[Jauronimo]

5 minutes ago, ALF said:

Put Skinner back on Jack's line before his confidence is ruined.

At least give him Johansson to work with.  

[BillsFan4]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Attached is a link with Krueger on WGR addressing the Skinner issue. To summarize it Krueger is not willing to tamper with what he considers one of the top five lines with the Jack-Reinhart-Olofsson line. The solution with the Skinner malaise is to get him better players to play with in order to put him in a better position to succeed. 

 

https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/02-20-sabres-head-coach-ralph-krueger

 

The discussion about the playoffs with respect to the Sabres needs to be put in perspective. The reality is that the Sabres are not a playoff caliber team. They have the ability to compete for a bottom end playoff position but when their roster is matched with the other competing teams it has too many deficiencies to match the teams above us. 

 

The Sabres lost a gruesome game to Ottawa. The goaltending and loose play were evident. For some reason (goaltending) this matchup is difficult for the Sabres while Toronto, a much better team, is less troublesome. In the prior game the Sabres dominated a better team while were dominated by an inferior team in the next game. Problematic matchups occur in all sports. 

 

What I don't want to see is a trade made out of desperation resulting in getting less in a return that we should have gotten if we waited for the offseason. I'm not against making a deal that will better balance the roster (second line player for defenseman) prior to the trade deadline but my belief is that a better deal can be secured after the season. 

 

 

 

Just past 8 minutes in, as Howard is asking Krueger about Skinner and Krueger is saying that Reinhart/Eichel is too powerful a line to break up.

 

Howard says “Skinner and Eichel last year were also very powerful together. Skinner had career highs too”

 

Krueger - “and you were happy with the results last year...?”

 

Howard - “well I’m not happy with the team’s results this year. No offense but you’re probably not making the playoffs Ralph...”

 

Burn! ?

Edited February 20, 2020 by BillsFan4

[BillsFan4]

Btw, I don’t really agree with keeping Olofsson and Reinhart stapled to Eichel during their contract years.

 

Thats what they did with Skinner last year, then paid him $9M based on the results he got with Eichel, and now they absolutely refuse to put him back with Eichel.

 

It’s like they want him driving his own line for that $9M price tag, but wouldn’t it have been smart to find out how well Skinner drove his own line Last Year? you know, before they gave him that $9M...?? 

 

Now I feel like they’re doing the same damn thing with Reinhart and Olofsson. We know Eichel makes his line mates better. Let’s see what they can do without him before we give them both big paydays. Let’s see how much they’re worth without Eichel.

[GG]

7 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Now I feel like they’re doing the same damn thing with Reinhart and Olofsson. We know Eichel makes his line mates better. Let’s see what they can do without him before we give them both big paydays. Let’s see how much they’re worth without Eichel.

 

You mean like scrub WRs playing with Tom Brady?

[BillsFan4]

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard

 

Leafs wake up to find themselves outside of a playoff spot. 

 

Man, this really would have been the year for Buffalo to actually have a legit shot at making the playoffs (without needing to get 100 pts in the standings).

 

I mean, even with all their struggles this season, if the Sabres had just won those 2 very winnable games vs Ottawa and 1 vs Montreal since the all star break, they’d be sitting 2 points out of 3rd in the division right now and would actually be in a position to ADD at the deadline (for once), especially with Bogo’s cap space opening up.

 

 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Just past 8 minutes in, as Howard is asking Krueger about Skinner and Krueger is saying that Reinhart/Eichel is too powerful a line to break up.

 

Howard says “Skinner and Eichel last year were also very powerful together. Skinner had career highs too”

 

Krueger - “and you were happy with the results last year...?”

 

Howard - “well I’m not happy with the team’s results this year. No offense but you’re probably not making the playoffs Ralph...”

 

Burn! ?

Krueger was being stubborn about not playing Skinner on that premier line when Olofsson was hurt. But there is another side to the Skinner saga that relates on how he wants his players to play. He has made it a team and individual emphasis to be a responsible two way player. That is at the core of his coaching philosophy. He applied that high two way standard when he was coaching in Europe and now in the NHL. It doesn't matter if you are Jack who is a top 5-10 player in the league or a grunt role player. He wants his players to not be one dimensional. Jack is a marvel on offense; he is also a tenacious defender when the play is going the other way. 

 

Although I disagree with his not playing Skinner with the top line, even if it would have been for a short duration in order to jolt the player, I respect him for applying his standard to everyone. In my mind the best way to maximize Skinner's scoring talents is to upgrade that line. That is more likely to happen in the offseason when bigger deals are more likely to occur.   

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

They were not dominated by a better team.  Ottawa may, MAY have outplayed buffalo for about 10 minutes of the full 60.  Hutton shat the bed giving up 4 goals in 5 minutes.   

 

Every matchup is "problematic" when you're starting goalie has a save percentage of 85% .     

You may have misread my post. I didn't say that Ottawa was the better team. I said the opposite. Toronto is indisputably more talented than Buffalo. Yet, we have played reasonably well against them in a number of games. Ottawa is less talented than Buffalo but we have not been able to earn enough points against them that we should have. It's not only about this game but you have to include the other games against them. 

 

I agree with you that the subpar performance was the major factor in us losing that game. But there was also repeated loose play in our own end that contributed to the breakdown. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

@JohnC, did they ask then why no PP or OT usage? Not on the ice 6-5? I can buy the top line answer..be interesting if he addressed the other situations.

 

And like i said few posts back, the loss in Ottawa really should have even the most optimistic of folks, whether they be fans, Management, or Owners realistic about this season now, which should take the pressure off making a substantial trade at the deadline. Rentals, fire away! Get as many picks as ya can! To bad you cant acquired picks in Offer Sheets, cause we need a 3rd desperately.

I have listened to Howard and Jeremy bring up the Skinner issue with Krueger on more than a couple segments. Krueger is usually very composed when being interviewed. However,  I have noticed that whenever the subject of Skinner comes up about playing him on the first line he bristles and acts irritated. My sense is that he is not enamored with Skinner's one dimensional and lone ranger style of play. He pointed out that he and the other coaches are working with him to get him back on track. But he has also insinuated that he is not giving any player a reward unless he earns it. (See my response to BillsFan4 on this issue.)

[Jauronimo]

32 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You may have misread my post. I didn't say that Ottawa was the better team. I said the opposite. Toronto is indisputably more talented than Buffalo. Yet, we have played reasonably well against them in a number of games. Ottawa is less talented than Buffalo but we have not been able to earn enough points against them that we should have. It's not only about this game but you have to include the other games against them. 

 

I agree with you that the subpar performance was the major factor in us losing that game. But there was also repeated loose play in our own end that contributed to the breakdown. 

I didn't misread anything.  Ottawa did not dominate that game.  Buffalo outplayed Ottawa and easily could have won that game.  If you score 4 goals you should win the game. 

 

Unfortunately, when your starter gives up 4 in 5 minutes and completely melts down, no amount of offense is good enough.

[JohnC]

Attached is a WGR link with Biron. Much of the segment relates to the Skinner issue. My sense is that Marty agrees with Krueger that he shouldn't be rewarded with an elevation of his line because of his uneven level of play. In his diplomatic way he is critical of Skinner and makes the point that it is Skinner's responsibility to upgrade his play or he will continue to have a diminished role. This is an 18 min segment. 

 

https://wgr550.radio.com/media/audio-channel/02-20-marty-biron

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I didn't misread anything.  Ottawa did not dominate that game.  Buffalo outplayed Ottawa and easily could have won that game.  If you score 4 goals you should win the game. 

 

Unfortunately, when your starter gives up 4 in 5 minutes and completely melts down, no amount of offense is good enough.

I agree with you that the goalie was the main factor for the loss in this game. But there are other games with them in which we played them and lost. My point was that there are lesser teams that you don't play well against and there are better teams that you do play well against. That dynamic happens in all sports. That was my main point.

[shrader]

8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Unfortunately, when your starter gives up 4 in 5 minutes and completely melts down, no amount of offense is good enough.

 

Wait, which game are we talking about?  I fee like we've seen this at least 5 times this year.

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

Wait, which game are we talking about?  I fee like we've seen this at least 5 times this year.

Tuesday.  And yes, sadly its a regular occurrence.  We have been spoiled by decades of excellent goalie play and watching Hutton play makes me regretful about criticizing Miller's post season record.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

https://www.nhl.com/standings/2019/wildcard

 

Leafs wake up to find themselves outside of a playoff spot. 

 

Man, this really would have been the year for Buffalo to actually have a legit shot at making the playoffs (without needing to get 100 pts in the standings).

 

I mean, even with all their struggles this season, if the Sabres had just won those 2 very winnable games vs Ottawa and 1 vs Montreal since the all star break, they’d be sitting 2 points out of 3rd in the division right now and would actually be in a position to ADD at the deadline (for once), especially with Bogo’s cap space opening up.

 

 

The Sabres have obvious glaring deficiencies. The one deficiency that has most sunk us this season is the second-rate caliber of goaltending. With consistent good goaltending I believe we should have had maybe earned 8 more points. 

[Lurker]

37 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The Sabres have obvious glaring deficiencies. The one deficiency that has most sunk us this season is the second-rate caliber of goaltending. With consistent good goaltending I believe we should have had maybe earned 8 more points. 

 

At a minimum.    Hutton's given up 5-plus goals in a game nine times this season.    That's abysmal...

[bbb]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

 Skinner's responsibility to upgrade his play or he will continue to have a diminished role.

 

But, not a diminished bank account...

[Marv's Neighbor]

On 5/19/2019 at 9:39 AM, Boca BIlls said:

Sabres can't hit rock bottom 3 times in a row... No chance. This is the year.

I was trying to believe that till the Ottawa game.

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

The Sabres have obvious glaring deficiencies. The one deficiency that has most sunk us this season is the second-rate caliber of goaltending. With consistent good goaltending I believe we should have had maybe earned 8 more points. 

The glaring deficiency is the GM.  He created the other deficiencies.

[plenzmd1]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

. My sense is that he is not enamored with Skinner's one dimensional and lone ranger style of play. He pointed out that he and the other coaches are working with him to get him back on track. But he has also insinuated that he is not giving any player a reward unless he earns it. (See my response to BillsFan4 on this issue.)

 

2 hours ago, bbb said:

 

But, not a diminished bank account...

Wow, not “ rewarding” your $9m/ 8 year guy in year 1? Oh my, that can’t be going well between coach and GM who made the signing. 
 

One dimensional play is why he was paid $9m, score freaking goals being that one dimension. Cat ain’t changing his stripes at his age, he never gunna be a responsible two way player. He scores freaking goals when he plays with other good players. 
 

this could get interesting.  

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, bbb said:

 

But, not a diminished bank account...

You sign a contract/deal that you and management agreed to. What you get is what you got offered. Sometimes the system works against you; and sometimes the system works in your favor. Some players play above their contracts while others play below it. This is the reality of the workplace that exists in all fields of endeavor. ?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

Wow, not “ rewarding” your $9m/ 8 year guy in year 1? Oh my, that can’t be going well between coach and GM who made the signing. 
 

One dimensional play is why he was paid $9m, score freaking goals being that one dimension. Cat ain’t changing his stripes at his age, he never gunna be a responsible two way player. He scores freaking goals when he plays with other good players.
 

this could get interesting.  

For the most part we agree on this issue. (A rarity!?) Skinner is a goal scorer who relies on other players. Unless the players he plays with are dramatically upgraded the team won't get the production from him worthy of his bonanza contract. I listened to Biron on WGR talking about Skinner. What he said about Skinner mimicked the not so oblique Krueger's assessment of Skinner. Make no mistake about both of their comments: They were each critical of the player. 

 

My assessment of the situation is not as harsh about the player. His game is predicated on being set up by players who are first or second line caliber. He is not playing with that type of players. Or another way of looking at it he is not being put in a position to succeed. I don't see the situation being much altered until better talent is brought in, most likely in the offseason.  

Edited February 21, 2020 by JohnC

[Hardhatharry]

34 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

Wow, not “ rewarding” your $9m/ 8 year guy in year 1? Oh my, that can’t be going well between coach and GM who made the signing. 
 

One dimensional play is why he was paid $9m, score freaking goals being that one dimension. Cat ain’t changing his stripes at his age, he never gunna be a responsible two way player. He scores freaking goals when he plays with other good players. 
 

this could get interesting.  

This is how it is with just about every good player, they need someone else there with them 

[plenzmd1]

Man, the Sabres could use some of this heart

 

 

[JohnC]

The attached link is a column by Bill Hoppe from the Buffalo Hockey Beat. He talks about the friendship among Larsson, Girgs and Risto. One stark statistic he gives is Risto's improvement from a -41 to his current 0 plus/minus. This is an illustration that coaching matters. My hope is that Larsson and Risto are both retained. But this team has to consider all offers.

 

 

http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/through-seven-years-of-losing-three-sabres-have-grown-close/?view=getnewpost

 

[shrader]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

Man, the Sabres could use some of this heart

 

 

 

I hope he got the penalty for jumping into the hit.

[plenzmd1]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The attached link is a column by Bill Hoppe from the Buffalo Hockey Beat. He talks about the friendship among Larsson, Girgs and Risto. One stark statistic he gives is Risto's improvement from a -41 to his current 0 plus/minus. This is an illustration that coaching matters. My hope is that Larsson and Risto are both retained. But this team has to consider all offers.

 

 

http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/through-seven-years-of-losing-three-sabres-have-grown-close/?view=getnewpost

 

I have not read the article, but the problem is no one outside dinosaurs use +/- as a relevant statistic anymore. Bout as useful as hits.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/01/behind-the-numbers-why-plusminus-is-the-worst-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

And, I can see Bots using it in trade negotiations, and other GMs with half a brain using more modern and advanced stats and laughing at Bots trade demands for Risto. As Burke said, he was ready to pull the trigger on the Risto a few years back, till his analytics folks told him he would be an idiot to trade for him.

7 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

I hope he got the penalty for jumping into the hit.

But he has to jump or he gunna hit dudes in the junk!

[BillsFan4]

 

If the Pegulas did either of these things, I feel like it would prove that they haven’t learned anything.

 

If they get rid of Botterill, they NEED to bring in someone experienced to run the team. 

I wouldn’t mind Krueger in some type of team president role or something like that, but they still need a veteran GM to get this thing back on track. I like Kevyn Adams but he has no experience running an NHL team. 

 

I hope Friedman is just purely speculating. 

[BillsFan4]

 

 

I don’t really want him in Rochester. Why would yo7 want a disgruntled vet around our prospects? 

 

I’m assuming Bogo wants his contract terminated sooner rather than later if that’s the route he chooses. He has to sign with a playoff team before the deadline if he wants to be able to play in the playoffs. 

 

Edit - 

 

figured thats where this was headed.

Edited February 21, 2020 by BillsFan4

[shrader]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

If the Pegulas did either of these things, I feel like it would prove that they haven’t learned anything.

 

If they get rid of Botterill, they NEED to bring in someone experienced to run the team. 

I wouldn’t mind Krueger in some type of team president role or something like that, but they still need a veteran GM to get this thing back on track. I like Kevyn Adams but he has no experience running an NHL team. 

 

I hope Friedman is just purely speculating. 

 

Of course he's speculating.  The whole quote is "they could do this, they could do that... no one really knows what they'll do".  They could go off in just about any direction.

[plenzmd1]

OKay, can someone explain the difference   between "waivers" and "unconditional waivers"? 

 

Found it..guess a player has to clear this unconditional waivers in order for the club to terminate a players contract ...man, some of these things in hockey confusing as hell

Edited February 21, 2020 by plenzmd1

[shrader]

4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

OKay, can someone explain the difference   between "waivers" and "unconditional waivers"? 

 

Found it..guess a player has to clear this unconditional waivers in order for the club to terminate a players contract ...man, some of these things in hockey confusing as hell

 

You retain some level of control after the former and you have no control after the latter.  You pretty much nailed it, one you use when you want to reassign the player.  The other is for the end of the line and you're completely cutting ties with the player.

 

Baseball has the two different types of waivers too, but with completely different rules.  I feel like football has something similar too, but maybe with different language.  Don't they have the rule where players with a certain amount of experience are a free agent immediately while others have to first go through waivers?

[plenzmd1]

9 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

You retain some level of control after the former and you have no control after the latter.  You pretty much nailed it, one you use when you want to reassign the player.  The other is for the end of the line and you're completely cutting ties with the player.

 

Baseball has the two different types of waivers too, but with completely different rules.  I feel like football has something similar too, but maybe with different language.  Don't they have the rule where players with a certain amount of experience are a free agent immediately while others have to first go through waivers?

yes, football i think is 4 years and the player does not go through waivers, is immediately a free agent. 

 

Update, his contract has been terminated.

 

Is there another team in the NHL where people want out so desperately they give up money to do so? Now its a regular occurrence for the Sabres. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by plenzmd1

[plenzmd1]

Sabres Twitter not happy about this Kase trade

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by plenzmd1

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I have not read the article, but the problem is no one outside dinosaurs use +/- as a relevant statistic anymore. Bout as useful as hits.

 

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/01/behind-the-numbers-why-plusminus-is-the-worst-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

And, I can see Bots using it in trade negotiations, and other GMs with half a brain using more modern and advanced stats and laughing at Bots trade demands for Risto. As Burke said, he was ready to pull the trigger on the Risto a few years back, till his analytics folks told him he would be an idiot to trade for him.

But he has to jump or he gunna hit dudes in the junk!

It doesn't matter what advanced stats you want to use in evaluating Risto it is clearly evident that under Krueger he is playing better. By simplifying his role as a defender and getting him to play a smarter and more efficient style of game Risto has unquestionably played better this season. If you want to quibble about stats I got another recommendation for you: If you open your jaundiced eyes it would be clear to even you that he is having a good season.  

 

The one predictable thing about Brian Burke is that whatever organization he goes to he will be fired from. ?

[plenzmd1]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It doesn't matter what advanced stats you want to use in evaluating Risto it is clearly evident that under Krueger he is playing better.. 

Ah Kemosobe, this is where you have your head in the ground. Advanced stats run the league now, and the numbers tell ya Risto still stinks. 
 

is he playing better? Yes but That’s akin to saying the Sabres are better because they went to last under Bots in his first year and now have climbed to 5 th worst. Better? Yes. Good? No. 
 

 

 

[BillsFan4]

45 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Sabres Twitter not happy about this Kase trade

 

 

Kase would have been a nice add, but he’s always injured. He’s never played a full season in the NHL. 

 

Plus boston gave up a 1st and a RHD prospect they just drafted in the 2nd in 2018. Plus a cap dump (Backes, who has 1 yr left on his deal) with Boston retaining 25%.

 

Im not sure what the equivalent package from Buffalo would be. We definitely can’t trade our 1st. Would a 2nd + good d prospect get it done? Not sure who the equivalent of Andersson would be in our system. Definitely not trading Ryan Johnson. Samuelsson and Borgen are more physical defensive defenseman (I believe Andersson is more of an offensive defenseman). I don’t know how Laaksonen is viewed vs. Andersson. Oskari Laaksonen wasn’t even on the NHL scouting registry when buffalo drafted him. He had a great season last year and has taken a step back this year. I have no clue how he’s viewed in the scouting community. 

 

This is supposed to be a pretty deep draft, so Bob Murray may have put a lot of value on getting a 1st back in the trade.

 

edit - for reference, here’s the full trade details -

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by BillsFan4

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

Ah Kemosobe, this is where you have your head in the ground. Advanced stats run the league now, and the numbers tell ya Risto still stinks. 
 

is he playing better? Yes but That’s akin to saying the Sabres are better because they went to last under Bots in his first year and now have climbed to 5 th worst. Better? Yes. Good? No. 
 

 

 

Do you know who has a different view on Risto compared to your view? Krueger.  He is still accumulating the most minutes from the unit because the HC has a different assessment from yours. 

[plenzmd1]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Do you know who has a different view on Risto compared to your view? Krueger.  He is still accumulating the most minutes from the unit because the HC has a different assessment from yours. 

Might be, Risto played the most minutes last year too and you said he sucked last year? So..

 

Put your head in the sand all you want, the NHL is almost entirly run now by guys who buy into the analytics. Reason why Bruce Cassidy says "i need to see the numbers" and not " i need to see the tape" when someone asks him what he thought of someones play in a game. It is also the reason Bots cannot trade him