Buffalo Sabres and NHL: 2019/20: Sabres season officially over. Draft lottery June 26th

[shrader]

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

I don’t have an issue with the pick as much as I do with his policy of not even considering a defenseman with that pick because it was “too high” and you only draft forwards that high (something Murray talked about more than once). 

Nylander wasn’t a reach. He was ranked in the top 10 of the draft. 

 

But Sergachev should have been at least in consideration for that pick. Same with Chychrun and McAvoy. They shouldn’t have been disqualified from consideration because they played defense and Murray thought #7 was too high to take a defenseman. 

 

 

I'd love to see thoughts like this truly put to the test.  But unfortunately (actually, fortunately), GMs are typically fired before that can ever happen.  If 8 is too high to take a defenseman, what does Murray do if he's presented with the first overall pick with Dahlin on the board?  There's clearly some line where a stupid rule like that gets thrown out the window.

 

It's the same thought I had immediately last year when I heard the Tom Dundon quote that the Hurricanes will never draft a defenseman in the first round as long as he owns the team.  That comment conveniently came out right after they had finished second in the draft lottery.  With him though, I genuinely think he just might be so stupid as to force the GM to take Svechnikov over Dahlin.

[Buffalophil1948]

Hate to say it but I think Nylander is going to be stuck at the bottom of the log jam Chicago has for forwards.  He will get stuck in the AHL in Rockford.  That will help his attitude and work ethic.

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, shrader said:

I do think that it was mostly a case of Murray not placing anywhere near as much value on the defense position.  It goes beyond the drafts.  Look at all of his moves while he was here.  He focused very heavily on adding scoring.  He never traded for defense.  Any d-man he did acquire, it involved a defenseman going back the other way (Myers -> Bogosian, Pysyk -> Kulikov).  Other deals actually depleted our D numbers (McNabb -> Fasching/Desluariers, Zadorov in the O'Reilly deal).  Only one trade lead to a net gain in D (Gorges for pick).

 

He also didn't pay any serious attention to the position in free agency.  Take a look at this list, he never looked beyond the bargain bin:
Meszaros

Strachan

Benoit

Donovan

Sanguinetti

Colaiacovo

Franson

Fedun

Falk

 

 

It's a very short time frame, so it's definitely possible that he would have turned his focus to the D once the offense was fully established, but completely neglecting it for those three years is a big part of why he's gone.

What your post indicates is that Murray was simply not a good GM. There was little strategy and thought in constructing a roster. He tried to short circuit the rebuild process with expedient decisions that instead of advancing the rebuild set it back. He not only didn't advance the construction of a competitive team but set it back. Most of us disagree with how the current GM handled the ROR trade. (I'm sure there is more to that back story that we are aware of that includes input from the owners.) But putting aside that issue most of his moves have an understandable rationale and thoughtfulness behind them. 

 

You and Bills4 point out that Murray didn't value the defense compared to the rest of the roster. But what is also evident is that he still wasn't very successful in constructing the forward lines. With Murray style trumped substance. His bluster and tough talk didn't compensate for his inability to handle the many responsibilities associated with his GM job. When all is said and done the bland and boring Botts outshined the more colorful, loud and pugnacious personality of Murray. Or another way of saying it is : Substance over style. 

 

 

[plenzmd1]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What your post indicates is that Murray was simply not a good GM. There was little strategy and thought in constructing a roster. He tried to short circuit the rebuild process with expedient decisions that instead of advancing the rebuild set it back. He not only didn't advance the construction of a competitive team but set it back. Most of us disagree with how the current GM handled the ROR trade. (I'm sure there is more to that back story that we are aware of that includes input from the owners.) But putting aside that issue most of his moves have an understandable rationale and thoughtfulness behind them. 

 

You and Bills4 point out that Murray didn't value the defense compared to the rest of the roster. But what is also evident is that he still wasn't very successful in constructing the forward lines. With Murray style trumped substance. His bluster and tough talk didn't compensate for his inability to handle the many responsibilities associated with his GM job. When all is said and done the bland and boring Botts outshined the more colorful, loud and pugnacious personality of Murray. Or another way of saying it is : Substance over style. 

 

 

 

 

'Wonder who said this on July 2nd of last year?????

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

i'm happy with the deal. The Blues got the best player while in my mind the key for Buffalo is getting the picks and Tage Thompson, a young player with upside. Botterill was determined to shake up the room and get a better mix. And without question he is accomplishing that. 

 

Make no mistake our GM is building for the future. He is trying to piece together some good young players who will grow together. He is a strategic thinker compared to the more tactical former GM. Overall, I like what he has done

 

 

 

 

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

 

'Wonder who said this on July 2nd of last year?????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Botts got the best deal he could because he was determined to quickly move him, probably because of the impending bonus. I have never criticized him for trading the gap toothed player because it was apparent that something was going on there. The criticism I have is just because he got what he could get at the time doesn't mean that he couldn't have gotten much more by waiting for a better deal. As it turned out that imbalanced deal hurt the team. What's obvious is obvious. 

 

Compare how Botts handled the ROR case with the possible Risto or McCabe trade case? Very often patience brings you a better return than impatience. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by JohnC
grammar

[Alaska Darin]

On 7/10/2019 at 1:28 PM, GG said:

 

Wouldn't that list include Nylander?

Of course...

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Botts got the best deal he could because he was determined to quickly move him, probably because of the impending bonus. I have never criticized him for trading the gap toothed player because it was apparent that something was going on there. The criticism I have is just because he got what he could get at the time doesn't mean that he couldn't have gotten much more by waiting for a better deal. As it turned out that imbalanced deal hurt the team. What's obvious is obvious. 

 

Compare how Botts handled the ROR case with the possible Risto or McCabe trade case? Very often patience brings you a better return than impatience. 

[BillsFan4]

 

https://www.tsn.ca/video/granato-there-s-no-limit-to-eichel-s-potential~1727585

 

“Sabres assistant coach Don Granato joins OverDrive to chat about Buffalo’s outlook for next season, and what it was like to coach Auston Matthews in the US developmental program.”

 

heres the whole interview -

 

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/don-granato-on-the-teamsnap-coaches-conference-auston-matthews-his-hopes-for-the-sabres-this-season-1.1336177

Edited July 11, 2019 by BillsFan4

[Cripple Creek]

On 7/9/2019 at 10:44 PM, JohnC said:

I don't watch many Amerk games but I do watch the highlights from their games from their web site. I have also heard many interviews of Chris Taylor, the HC, discussing Nylander. The description of his play rarely changes. Nylander is described as a skilled and finesse player. Taylor has often said that he and his staff assiduously work to get him to play a more two way game and a harder physical game on the boards and in his zone. When the description of his style of play hasn't changed much over the past couple of years then it becomes obvious (at least to me) that he is either incapable of rounding out his game or he doesn't have the desire to. 

 

I have seen him in a few Sabre games. For the most part he is an invisible and no impact player with some interludes of skill. But what is evident to the observer is that his game lacks consistent energy. I have a standard way of evaluating players: Trust your eyes and not your hope.   

Did they really use the word assiduously when they described their coaching style?

[JohnC]

The below link is a column by Matt Larkin of The Hockey News. He was giving his opinion on the trade possibilities for Risto. I'm open on the issue but starting to lean toward keeping him unless the return is an offer that can't be refused. 

 

http://thehockeynews.com/news/article/its-time-for-buffalo-to-trade-rasmus-ristolainen-where?view=getnewpost

[JohnC]

14 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

https://www.tsn.ca/video/granato-there-s-no-limit-to-eichel-s-potential~1727585

 

“Sabres assistant coach Don Granato joins OverDrive to chat about Buffalo’s outlook for next season, and what it was like to coach Auston Matthews in the US developmental program.”

 

heres the whole interview -

 

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/toronto-1050/don-granato-on-the-teamsnap-coaches-conference-auston-matthews-his-hopes-for-the-sabres-this-season-1.1336177

Both of these links showed how thoughtful Granato is as a coach and his approach to the game as an instructor. For Krueger as exemplified by this coaching hire the approach is not just about individual talent development as it is about team building. There is a depth and interconnectedness about how this staff wants to put together a team. 

 

When Granato was talking about how special Mathews and Eichel are as players I thought of Nylander. Nylander may not be as explosive as these players but his skill set is elite. He will never attain a level of success as a player to match his hockey talent because he simply doesn't have the burning desire and commitment to the game that Matthews and Eichel have. I would love to be wrong but what you see when watching him is evident. 

[GG]

Larsson signs $1.55 million one-year extension - 4th line is solidified.   This makes it nearly certain that one or two RHD will be moved soon.

[plenzmd1]

14 minutes ago, GG said:

Larsson signs $1.55 million one-year extension - 4th line is solidified.   This makes it nearly certain that one or two RHD will be moved soon.

so i have no clue sometimes on how hockey works..

 

but my understanding is he can still be waived, and if claimed new team eats the cap 

if unclaimed, send him to Rochester , Sabres still eat the cap

Hopefully, this is the plan with Sobotka..instead of buying him out eat the cap hit while you have the space..but his ass better be playing either in Rochester or on loan to some ECL team..anywhere but taking meaning shifts in Buffalo

 

this cant work if player a a NM clause, but it is what we did with Matty Mo no?

 

Cap space not a huge issue i am guessing even in a trade scenario..cause most likely any trade involves Risto and his cap number being shipped out. So why not keep guys like this and have the flexibility and possible trade fodder like Sobotka was last year.

 

 

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

so i have no clue sometimes on how hockey works..

 

but my understanding is he can still be waived, and if claimed new team eats the cap 

if unclaimed, send him to Rochester , Sabres still eat the cap

Hopefully, this is the plan with Sobotka..instead of buying him out eat the cap hit while you have the space..but his ass better be playing either in Rochester or on loan to some ECL team..anywhere but taking meaning shifts in Buffalo

 

this cant work if player a a NM clause, but it is what we did with Matty Mo no?

 

Cap space not a huge issue i am guessing even in a trade scenario..cause most likely any trade involves Risto and his cap number being shipped out. So why not keep guys like this and have the flexibility and possible trade fodder like Sobotka was last year.

 

 

But, but, but who else is gonna take key defensive faceoffs from the left dot?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, GG said:

Larsson signs $1.55 million one-year extension - 4th line is solidified.   This makes it nearly certain that one or two RHD will be moved soon.

What does solidifying our fourth line have to doe with trading any of our d-men? I do agree with you that either Risto or McCabe or maybe even both are likely to be traded. But if the organization decides to stay pat with the bulging unit because the team will have both Pilut and Bogo on the shelf when the season starts then that isn't a bad situation to be in. As it stands our blue line unit as it is currently constituted is very good with Dahlin/Montour on the first pairing, Risto/McCabe on the second pairing and then Miller/Scandella/Bogo/Pilut making up the third and fourth pairing with some shuffling. That's not a bad unit. 

[GG]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What does solidifying our fourth line have to doe with trading any of our d-men? I do agree with you that either Risto or McCabe or maybe even both are likely to be traded. But if the organization decides to stay pat with the bulging unit because the team will have both Pilut and Bogo on the shelf when the season starts then that isn't a bad situation to be in. As it stands our blue line unit as it is currently constituted is very good with Dahlin/Montour on the first pairing, Risto/McCabe on the second pairing and then Miller/Scandella/Bogo/Pilut making up the third and fourth pairing with some shuffling. That's not a bad unit. 

 

The capologists are saying that.  There’s no room to fit all the RFAs who filed arbitration - Linus, ERod, and McCabe.  Someone has to go now.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

The capologists are saying that.  There’s no room to fit all the RFAs who filed arbitration - Linus, ERod, and McCabe.  Someone has to go now.

From a cap standpoint I understand your point. But if you look at all our RFAs none of them are considered costly especially considering the playing time they accrue. Other than maybe McCabe who is going to put stress on our cap? It seems to me that if a d-man is dealt it will be more due to having an excess in one area and having a need in another. 

[GG]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

From a cap standpoint I understand your point. But if you look at all our RFAs none of them are considered costly especially considering the playing time they accrue. Other than maybe McCabe who is going to put stress on our cap? It seems to me that if a d-man is dealt it will be more due to having an excess in one area and having a need in another. 

 

Nothing but pure math at this point.  The nuts at Sabrespace laid it out.  Sabres have $3.1 million in cap space, which isn’t enough to keep all 3 RFAs in arbitration.  

 

It’s even more clear now that the D surplus is temporary.

Edited July 12, 2019 by GG

[snafu]

3 hours ago, GG said:

 

Nothing but pure math at this point.  The nuts at Sabrespace laid it out.  Sabres have $3.1 million in cap space, which isn’t enough to keep all 3 RFAs in arbitration.  

 

It’s even more clear now that the D surplus is temporary.

 

Could trade Girgensons. He’s making about the same as Larsson at this point and they probably don’t need both of them to C the 4th line. 

And he’s fairly useful as trade bait.

[BillsFan4]

Pretty good read -

 

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog/Ryan-Wilson/Growing-trend-in-how-Pittsburgh-and-Buffalo-are-building-their-defense/177/100456

Growing trend in how Pittsburgh and Buffalo are building their defense

 

Quote

Yesterday the Buffalo Sabres made another move to try and improve their blue line. They acquired 20 year old Henri Jokiharju in exchange for Alex Nylander. It is the latest in a string of moves to try and revamp a group that struggled to move the puck and create offense. Jokiharju joins Colin Miller and Brandon Montour as recent additions to the right side of Buffalo's back end. These moves open the door for a Rasmus Ristolainen trade which has great potential for Buffalo. There are many teams who will perceive Ristolainen’s value to be higher than it is.  

When Jason Botterill was hired by the Sabres they had one of the worst blue lines in the entire league. The group included Rasmus Ristolainen, Zach Bogosian, Josh Gorges, Justin Falk (no not that one), Taylor Fedun, Dmitry Kulikov, Cody Franson, and Jake McCabe.  

The recent moves by the Sabres got me thinking about the shift in the kinds of defenseman the Penguins used to target versus the kind that they currently target. Buffalo seems to be focusing on puck movers and offense while the Penguins have shifted towards a push back mentality in recent years. Right now the Penguins defense is their greatest weakness.

There are three different time periods I decided to look at with the Penguins and the kinds of additions they made on defense via signings and trade. The first time period was June 6, 2014 to May 10, 2017. This was the time both Jim Rutherford and Jason Botterill worked together......

 

 

 

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Pretty good read -

 

11 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Pretty good read -

 

https://hockeybuzz.com/blog/Ryan-Wilson/Growing-trend-in-how-Pittsburgh-and-Buffalo-are-building-their-defense/177/100456

Growing trend in how Pittsburgh and Buffalo are building their defense

 

 

 

Growing trend in how Pittsburgh and Buffalo are building their defense

 

 

 

Odds are that either Risto or McCabe or both could be traded for second line help. But if the GM decided to keep both defensemen because the return on each player wasn't satisfactory that wouldn't necessarily be bad a outcome. The top two pairings could be Dahlin/Montour and McCabe/Risto. The third and fourth pairings could be made up from some combination of Pilut, Miller, Jokiharju and Bogo. Overall, that would be quite a strong and deep unit. The benefit of having depth on a unit is that you have options. 

 

 

[JohnC]

Not that long ago I was listening to WGR and one of the hosts was talking about what a prospective Risto trade could get you. The host was proposing a straight up trade with Tampa for Anthony Cirelli. The host felt that the young center was on a steady upward trajectory as a very good second line center. For those who are far more knowledgeable about players in the league what say you? (I believe he may have a no trade clause so if that is so it might be a complication.)

[Alaska Darin]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Not that long ago I was listening to WGR and one of the hosts was talking about what a prospective Risto trade could get you. The host was proposing a straight up trade with Tampa for Anthony Cirelli. The host felt that the young center was on a steady upward trajectory as a very good second line center. For those who are far more knowledgeable about players in the league what say you? (I believe he may have a no trade clause so if that is so it might be a complication.)

That's not a great return.  Cirelli is a nice player but he's been a 3rd line center and doesn't appear to be ready to contribute at a high level offensively.   Good skater and defender.  His ceiling is supposedly Patrice Bergeron light (my current favorite NHLer), so that would be great and his cap hit would save the Sabres almost $5m but we'd have to get much more to make the deal. 

 

He's on his ELC, so I doubt he has a NMC.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

That's not a great return.  Cirelli is a nice player but he's been a 3rd line center and doesn't appear to be ready to contribute at a high level offensively.   Good skater and defender.  His ceiling is supposedly Patrice Bergeron light (my current favorite NHLer), so that would be great and his cap hit would save the Sabres almost $5m but we'd have to get much more to make the deal. 

 

He's on his ELC, so I doubt he has a NMC.

Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM is wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo. 

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM  wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo. 

 

[Alaska Darin]

16 hours ago, JohnC said:

Thanks for the opinion. It seems to me that a third line center on a very good team would fit in with being a second line center for the Sabres. The person who was commenting about him stated that his stats have steadily improved showing an upward trajectory for the young player. My sense is that the GM is wants to trade Risto but won't take the plunge unless there is a good return. The ROR deal haunts him and should spook him from making another precipitous move. The McCabe issue of should he stay or go is another interesting issue that will have to be addressed. If the GM stays pat the pairing of McCabe with Risto makes for an interesting combo. 

 

I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type.  At this moment,  he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for.   It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first.

[JohnC]

33 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type.  At this moment,  he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for.   It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first.

I have openly stated that on the Risto trade I go back and forth. Is he a physical talent that needs better coaching to maximize his performance or is he a player whose physical talents will tantalize you but his play will be undercut by his lack of cerebral play? I just don't know? 

 

There is another aspect to a proposed trade that goes beyond matching talent for talent. Can a trade of a bigger talent for a lesser talent still upgrade your team because it better balances out your roster? Is it smart to shed some excess talent on a defensive unit to improve an area where you have a major deficit on the second line, especially at center. 

 

My sense (guess) is that the GM is going to trade Risto. He is biding his time and is willing to wait. He rushed in the ROR episode and it turned out disastrously. Not because he traded him but because he rushed to do it and hurt his leverage. 

 

The Risto and even possible McCabe trade possibilities are intriguing. This offseason has been productive and there is still more to come. 

Edited July 14, 2019 by JohnC
editing

[K-9]

How about Risto to Edmonton straight up for Nugent-Hopkins? I’d do that. 

[Alaska Darin]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

How about Risto to Edmonton straight up for Nugent-Hopkins? I’d do that. 

I think I would too.

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

I think I would too.

What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined? 

[Alaska Darin]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined? 

Multiple failures: 

1.  OVERDRAFTED

2.  Rushed to North America

3.  Didn't speak English

4.  Rushed to the NHL

5.  Ken Hitchcock

6.  Injuries

 

I'd take him if the asking price was low because it feels a bit " Strome-ish" to me.

[JohnC]

49 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

Multiple failures: 

1.  OVERDRAFTED

2.  Rushed to North America

3.  Didn't speak English

4.  Rushed to the NHL

5.  Ken Hitchcock

6.  Injuries

 

I'd take him if the asking price was low because it feels a bit " Strome-ish" to me.

Although it is not an unusual occurrence missing on a highly drafted player is a painful setback. At least with Nylander we were able to get a decent return on him. 

 

Our GM is fully committed to the development process without seeking to short-circuit the process. That is one of the reasons that I like him. I thought he was really smart in keeping Chris Taylor who was good with working with the younger players in Rochester. 

[ALF]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

What happened to Puljujarvi? Was he rushed and ruined? 

 

4th pick overall , would be ok for Amerks to develop. 

[BillsFan4]

3 hours ago, Alaska Darin said:

I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type.  At this moment,  he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for.   It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first.

 

Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. 

 

He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. 

 

He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. 

all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. 

 

 

He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. 

 

He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. 

 

If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that.

 

 

I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. 

 

Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). 

I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). 

10 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

4th pick overall , would be ok for Amerks to develop. 

He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. 

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, Alaska Darin said:

I agree with with the perspective that Cirelli is a 2/3 center type.  At this moment,  he's simply not enough to trade Risto straight up for.   It'd would have to be something like Cirelli, a top prospect, and a first.

 

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. 

 

He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. 

 

He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. 

all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. 

 

 

He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. 

 

He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. 

 

If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that.

 

 

I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. 

 

Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). 

I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). 

He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. 

 

The problem with Johnson is he has an NTC & simply can't see him waiving it to go from the Presidents' Trophy winner to the Sabres.

 

I expect Cirelli would actually be a good piece coming back for Ristolainen, but the Bolts need to shed salary now, not add to it.

 

Cirelli would fit in as the 2C now and could be the 3C if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever reach their potential.  Originally, wasn't too keen on a potential Risto / Cirelli trade, but one of the posters on SabreSpace (Randall Flagg) has been making a convincing case.

 

RNH would be a great trade for Buffalo if Botterill could swing it.  Too bad Chiarelli is no longer the GM there.

 

[Alaska Darin]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

RNH would be a great trade for Buffalo if Botterill could swing it.  Too bad Chiarelli is no longer the GM there.

 

We could probably get Nurse and RNH for Risto from Chiarelli.  What a disaster that dude is. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. 

 

He scored 19 goals last season with heavy defensive zone starts and no power play time. He was used as their 2 way shutdown C who faced a lot of the other team’s top competition and was depended on in a lot of late game situations. If Tampa had the lead late in a game, Cirelli was usually out there. 

 

He was also very good in the face off circle, which is something we need. 

all of his advanced stats look good too and it doesn’t appear that he was sheltered looking at QoC and matchups etc. 

 

 

He was already getting Selke votes last season (his first full NHL season). He finished 11th in selke voting (ROR placed 11th in selke voting a couple times before finally winning it this year) and he finished 6th in Calder voting. 

 

He’s only 21 and still on his ELC as well. He would be a perfect fit in Buffalo. He could be our #2 C this year and eventually slide into the #3C role if Mittelstadt or Cozens ever surpass him as the 2C. We would have elite center depth if either player ever passed Cirelli as the 2C, as he was already probably about the best 3C in the NHL last season (his rookie season) or damn close. 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don’t see Tampa trading him anyway. John Cooper LOVES him and uses him in a ton of key situations. Plus He’s still on his entry level contract. They need cost controlled players desperately with Point due for a raise this year and Vasilevski due next year. They have a bunch of guys with NMC too, which will make clearing our cap space harder. 

 

If they did trade him for Risto, I can’t see any scenario where they add a top prospect and a 1st, though. Maybe a pick if we were lucky. But not a prospect on top of that.

 

 

I think they’d probably rather trade someone like Tyler Johnson because it would clear cap space. But he has a no trade clause. 

 

Id take Johnson though. He could be our 2C and is signed to a very reasonable $5M cap hit for 5 more years. The only issue is that he will be 29yrs old before the start of the season. His contract ends at age 33 so that’s not the issue. IMO the issue is that he probably doesn’t fit our long term rebuild window as well as Risto does. But he’d bring some much needed experience and leadership to the team. You can’t ice a entire roster of young guys (well, you can but it’s probably not going to be too successful as we’ve already seen). 

I would want a pick or prospect included with Johnson though (due to his age). 

He’s no longer waiver exempt. So it’s pretty much NHL or bust for Puljujarvi. 

I'd take Cirelli on a one on one deal for Risto. I wouldn't do it for Johnson. I just believe that Cirelli because of his age has so much more upside. If he is playing at a high level now how much more upside is there to tap. I would be willing to trade McCabe and a little more for Johnson but I wouldn't make a deal including Risto for Johnson unless I got back one of those highly prized prospects. 

 

The Sabres have talked to Tampa about deals over the past couple of years. One of the sticking points is that the Lightning are not willing to give up any of their top prospects. That makes sense for them because they are in a tight cap situation they have players in the near pipeline who are ready to move up.  

[Alaska Darin]

4 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Eh, I get what your saying because he’s only played 1 full season and part of another (this last season was considered his rookie year). But I’d be pretty damn happy with Cirell straight up for Risto. I am a big Cirelli fan though. 

 

...

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.  There are less than 10 RHD in the NHL that score like Risto and he does it on a one line team.  Cirelli (at this moment) isn't a special player, so Tampa would need to supplement the trade with something enticing to make it happen.  It wouldn't have to be their best prospect but rather someone like a Tage Thompson. 

 

The additional first is because they're in our division.  Sorry, I'm not playing against Risto that many times every season and not getting a premium back for him.  I'd rather keep him.

 

I'm also not touching Tyler Johnson.  That's too much money and too many years left for a small dude that's already 29.  I do love his game, however.

[JohnC]

44 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.  There are less than 10 RHD in the NHL that score like Risto and he does it on a one line team.  Cirelli (at this moment) isn't a special player, so Tampa would need to supplement the trade with something enticing to make it happen.  It wouldn't have to be their best prospect but rather someone like a Tage Thompson. 

 

The additional first is because they're in our division.  Sorry, I'm not playing against Risto that many times every season and not getting a premium back for him.  I'd rather keep him.

 

I'm also not touching Tyler Johnson.  That's too much money and too many years left for a small dude that's already 29.  I do love his game, however.

With respect to the highlighted segment you nailed what the issue is for a Cirelli for Risto deal i.e. what is his upside. If you believe that there is an upside (as I do) then you make the deal. If you don't then you don't make the deal. I would make the deal straight up and then believe that this team has the pieces to assemble a credible second line. Addressing the second line is the most important issue facing the organization this offseason. 

[Alaska Darin]

13 minutes ago, JohnC said:

With respect to the highlighted segment you nailed what the issue is for a Cirelli for Risto deal i.e. what is his upside. If you believe that there is an upside (as I do) then you make the deal. If you don't then you don't make the deal. I would make the deal straight up and then believe that this team has the pieces to assemble a credible second line. Addressing the second line is the most important issue facing the organization this offseason. 

No way.  If all you can get at this point is a young,  prospective middle 6 center then you hold the asset until the deadline. 

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

No way.  If all you can get at this point is a young,  prospective middle 6 center then you hold the asset until the deadline. 

I understand your well reasoned position. However, I'm with @BillsFan4 on this deal. If Cirelli can be a top three center for the loaded Lightning he would be a solid #2 center with us with the potential to be better in the near future.