Boatdrinks Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: I agree that doesnt define how great a player will be, but its a gigantic leg up from starting 16 games on this bills offense. But if Mahomes didnt become so great from learning behind Smith, as in he was already that great they would have started him immediately because Mahomes>Smith. Reid recognized that, traded up for him, and gave him a year that he needed to develop. If he was already developed he would not have sat, Reid would have seen that immediately. I doubt this. Very few HCs ( McDermott) will bench an established starter for a rookie during a playoff push. Mahomes was raw and shouldn’t have started right away, but there were reports of him even struggling in camp this year. Bottom line; there are some things even the most well trained eye cannot envision. Reid is a great offensive mind, but sometimes a player is better than you could ever imagine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: Ok so your point is "its possible he would have a great rookie year" but Reid didnt see that even though hes his head coach and traded up for him? Your hypothetical situation seems a lot more flimsy compared to my real life situation, which actually happened. I wont give in to extremes and say its always the case, but to deny Mahomes developed a ton is stubborn. If he was better he would have started, if something shot him to greatness that isnt sitting behind Smith I welcome your insight. Otherwise miss me with that woulda, coulda, shoulda non sense Maybe Mahomes is playing really well because he wears red. You can’t prove that’s not the reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: Ok so your point is "its possible he would have a great rookie year" but Reid didnt see that even though hes his head coach and traded up for him? Your hypothetical situation seems a lot more flimsy compared to my real life situation, which actually happened. I wont give in to extremes and say its always the case, but to deny Mahomes developed a ton is stubborn. If he was better he would have started, if something shot him to greatness that isnt sitting behind Smith I welcome your insight. Otherwise miss me with that woulda, coulda, shoulda non sense How would Reid have seen if Mahomes was better than Smith? From training camp?? A preseason game or 2? Passing drills? This isn't Pete Carroll realizing in preseason that Russell Wilson is better than newly acquired journeyman QB Matt Flynn. There is no way Mahoems, not matter how good he was last year, would have been able to demonstrate it outside of starting real games over Smith, which was never going to happen obviously. Why do you keep pretending otherwise? Edited October 30, 2018 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: Maybe Mahomes is playing really well because he wears red. You can’t prove that’s not the reason! Right! You know , Mahomes would have been awful if he was wearing blue. Can you imagine if he had to wear blue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Right! You know , Mahomes would have been awful if he was wearing blue. Can you imagine if he had to wear blue? Is that any better than you supporting " well he could have been better than Smith but well never know". Way to go 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: How would Reid have seen if Mahomes was better than Smith? From training camp?? A preseason game or 2? Passing drills? This isn't Pete Carroll realizing in preseason that Russell Wilson is better than newly acquired journeyman QB Matt Flynn. There is no way Mahoems, not matter how good he was last year, would have been able to demonstrate it outside of starting real games over Smith, which was never going to happen obviously. Why do you keep pretending otherwise? He would know from watching him play every single day since the day he drafted him. If he was better than Smith he would have started, Andy Reid kind of knows QBs so what you're both saying is Mahomes didnt start because he wasnt better than Smith. But something changed this year that no one can figure out? Weird. If he was as good as he is this year ( record setting out of his mind MVP level) someone would have noticed probably. Unless you think Reid sat an MVP for an entire season. Please confirm this is what you're saying. You too Boaty Mcboatface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: Is that any better than you supporting " well he could have been better than Smith but well never know". Way to go He would know from watching him play every single day since the day he drafted him. If he was better than Smith he would have started, Andy Reid kind of knows QBs so what you're both saying is Mahomes didnt start because he wasnt better than Smith. But something changed this year that no one can figure out? Weird. If he was as good as he is this year ( record setting out of his mind MVP level) someone would have noticed probably. Unless you think Reid sat an MVP for an entire season. Please confirm this is what you're saying. You too Boaty Mcboatface Play what? Catch with the receivers? Throw the ball really far? Run around pretty good? And that's what a "pretty good" coach "who knows QBs" does to evaluate whether to bench his Pro Bowl starter on, as Boatdrinks said, a season predicated on a deep run into the playoffs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Play what? Catch with the receivers? Throw the ball really far? Run around pretty good? And that's what a "pretty good" coach "who knows QBs" does to evaluate whether to bench his Pro Bowl starter on, as Boatdrinks said, a season predicated on a deep run into the playoffs? You just contradicted yourself again! Just confirm this for me, if Mahomes was the MVP talent last year he is right now. You are saying Andy Reid would not have noticed that. Not from college tape, to OTA's, to training camp, to preseason, to regular season, to playoffs? Andy Reid was oblivious to one of the most talented QB's in the league. Please confirm Patrick Mahomes was the MVP talent last year he is now but nobody could see it. Because my scenario, he was good then refined his game to become great by sitting behind Smith seems a lot more plausible. Edited October 30, 2018 by BillsMafia13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: You just contradicted yourself again! Just confirm this for me, if Mahomes was the MVP talent last year he is right now. You are saying Andy Reid would not have noticed that. Not from college tape, to OTA's, to training camp, to preseason, to regular season, to playoffs? Andy Reid was oblivious to one of the most talented QB's in the league. Please confirm Patrick Mahomes was the MVP talent last year he is now but nobody could see it. Because my scenario, he was good then refined his game to become great by sitting behind Smith seems a lot more plausible. Without playing games, it would have been impossible to see if he was better than Smith, yes. I'm starting to feel bad because the way you are reasoning, you are likely a kid and I feel a bit bad about busting on some kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Without playing games, it would have been impossible to see if he was better than Smith, yes. I'm starting to feel bad because the way you are reasoning, you are likely a kid and I feel a bit bad about busting on some kid. You can feel bad, your emotions are misleading you though. And it absolutely would not have been impossible to tell. Especially for a QB whisperer like Reid. But apparently you know better than he does. Nobody is an MVP candidate, record breaker their first season and aren't given a shot. I have provided logical reasoning for what happened, you hang on " well maybe but well never know". They wouldnt have drafted Mahomes if they thought Smith would be better, also why they sat him a season to devlop. Im done demolishing you with critical thinking and logic. Go yell at a wall with your hypothetical crusade Edited October 30, 2018 by BillsMafia13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BillsMafia13 said: You can feel bad, your emotions are misleading you though. And it absolutely would not have been impossible to tell. Especially for a QB whisperer like Reid. But apparently you know better than he does. Nobody is an MVP candidate, record breaker their first season and aren't given a shot. I have provided logical reasoning for what happened, you hang on " well maybe but well never know". They wouldnt have drafted Mahomes if they thought Smith would be better, also why they sat him a season to devlop. Im done demolishing you with critical thinking and logic. Go yell at a wall with your hypothetical crusade Oh man!! I miss the old format when we could add sigs to our posts. This would be right at the top of the list!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 30 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: I doubt this. Very few HCs ( McDermott) will bench an established starter for a rookie during a playoff push. Mahomes was raw and shouldn’t have started right away, but there were reports of him even struggling in camp this year. Bottom line; there are some things even the most well trained eye cannot envision. Reid is a great offensive mind, but sometimes a player is better than you could ever imagine. Comparing McDerms to Reid is a slap in the face to Reid. Mahomes was raw and shouldnt have started. Sounds a lot like he needed a year to develop behind a good qb? I think Reid knew exactly what he was getting in Mahomes, thats why he traded up for him 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: Oh man!! I miss the old format when we could add sigs to our posts. This would be right at the top of the list!! Keep falling back on sarcastic and witty jabs because of your weak debating skills and lack of any good information. You last 5 comments were " well maybe he could have been good hyuh hyuh hyuh" while I tsunami you with what really happened. Thats a childish and desperate reach Weo. If you ever want to put up a better fight you know where to find me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, BillsMafia13 said: Comparing McDerms to Reid is a slap in the face to Reid. Mahomes was raw and shouldnt have started. Sounds a lot like he needed a year to develop behind a good qb? I think Reid knew exactly what he was getting in Mahomes, thats why he traded up for him Nowhere did I compare McD to Reid. Just pointed out that McD received a fair amount of criticism for making a decision most HCs wouldn’t make. Reid would be in the majority here. To think Mahomes became great through some sort of osmosis is just silly. Even Reid would admit he couldn’t have foreseen all time record setting success. Even when asked about about it he laughed and jokingly said “ sure, of course “. I don’t think he was just being self deprecating. You won’t be convinced, but your hypothesis doesn’t hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm starting up my Taurus! Mary kept the PT Cruiser huh? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BillsMafia13 said: Comparing McDerms to Reid is a slap in the face to Reid. Mahomes was raw and shouldnt have started. Sounds a lot like he needed a year to develop behind a good qb? I think Reid knew exactly what he was getting in Mahomes, thats why he traded up for him Keep falling back on sarcastic and witty jabs because of your weak debating skills and lack of any good information. You last 5 comments were " well maybe he could have been good hyuh hyuh hyuh" while I tsunami you with what really happened. Thats a childish and desperate reach Weo. If you ever want to put up a better fight you know where to find me This just got 1000 times better. You've buried me with an avalanche of facts delivered with force 5 hurricane gusts and shaken me to my core with the disruptive effect of a 8.4 Richter earthquake, leaving me staggering in a blizzard of confusion and erupting in a volcano of self doubt... Edited October 30, 2018 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Nowhere did I compare McD to Reid. Just pointed out that McD received a fair amount of criticism for making a decision most HCs wouldn’t make. Reid would be in the majority here. To think Mahomes became great through some sort of osmosis is just silly. Even Reid would admit he couldn’t have foreseen all time record setting success. Even when asked about about it he laughed and jokingly said “ sure, of course “. I don’t think he was just being self deprecating. You won’t be convinced, but your hypothesis doesn’t hold water. Wait wait wait, so sitting and watching an intelligent qb like Smith operate in a new offense whilst learning under him and taking advice, and getting comfortable with everything is "osmosis". But boom we have a record setting qb on our bench and we had no idea/ Boom he just became a record setting talent this off season with no distinguishable reason is more realistic? Your right, I wont subscribe to your hypothetical thinking. Do people just walk in to important jobs with no training, instructions, or general idea of how to operate? 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: This just got 1000 times better. You've buried me with an avalanche of facts delivered with force 5 hurricane gusts and shaken me to my core with the disruptive effect of a 8.4 Richter earthquake, leaving me staggering in a blizzard of confusion and a erupting in a volcano of self doubt... Haha you got it! Again, you straw man argument is weak. Thats why you need snide comments because you have nothing else to bring to the table. And im the childish one, sheesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, BillsMafia13 said: Wait wait wait, so sitting and watching an intelligent qb like Smith operate in a new offense whilst learning under him and taking advice, and getting comfortable with everything is "osmosis". But boom we have a record setting qb on our bench and we had no idea/ Boom he just became a record setting talent this off season with no distinguishable reason is more realistic? Your right, I wont subscribe to your hypothetical thinking. Do people just walk in to important jobs with no training, instructions, or general idea of how to operate? Any QB will probably benefit from not playing in year one. Coaching, learning how to watch gamefilm etc is obviously helpful. At some point you have to play. You’re just not giving individual talent enough credit here. Smith with years of experience was unable to come close to Mahomes performance with largely the same cast. Some players are good and others are just great, at a completely different level. I doubt Josh Allen would be doing a Mahomes impression if he were in KC and sat a year. Four or five extra games sitting on the bench didn’t make Mahomes what he is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsMafia13 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said: Any QB will probably benefit from not playing in year one. Coaching, learning how to watch gamefilm etc is obviously helpful. At some point you have to play. You’re just not giving individual talent enough credit here. Smith with years of experience was unable to come close to Mahomes performance with largely the same cast. Some players are good and others are just great, at a completely different level. I doubt Josh Allen would be doing a Mahomes impression if he were in KC and sat a year. Four or five extra games sitting on the bench didn’t make Mahomes what he is today. "Any QB will probably benefit from not playing in year one. Coaching, learning how to watch gamefilm etc is obviously helpful". Pay attention WEO, this is for you too. That is my point and im done after this. If Mahomes were better than Smith year 1 he would have started, but it required the learning curve and knowledge to put him over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Good God. He either went to see Andrews or they had Andrews review his MRI etc. and he said he doesn't need surgery. Does it absolutely guarantee he may not? No. But he was evaluated thoroughly. Enough of the conspiracy theories. No conspiracy theories. I'm being 100% serious. How many times do we see players wait until off season conditioning begins before they realize they do indeed need surgery? If Allen is going to be out for the remainder of the season due to his elbow, he likely needs surgery and they're hoping, by resting him, it'll heal naturally. And no, I am not confident that this regime knows what they're doing. Edited October 30, 2018 by Chicken Boo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said: No conspiracy theories. I'm being 100% serious. How many times do we see players wait until off season conditioning begins before they realize they do indeed need surgery? If Allen is going to be out for the remainder of the season due to his elbow, he likely needs surgery and they're hoping, by resting him, it'll heal naturally. And no, I am not confident that this regime knows what they're doing. You said they should send him to Dr. Andrews. They did from what I've read, or at least had him review all the records They say he's week to week. And now it's the esteemed Dr. Andrews you want to question? I mean no one is infallible, but they did what you want and they're still wrong? Come on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: You said they should send him to Dr. Andrews. They did from what I've read, or at least had him review all the records They say he's week to week. And now it's the esteemed Dr. Andrews you want to question? I mean no one is infallible, but they did what you want and they're still wrong? Come on now. I haven't been following. Didn't know he went to Andrews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest1981 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, Chicken Boo said: I haven't been following. Didn't know he went to Andrews. I don't believe he physically went to see Dr. Andrews but his MRI results were sent to him for a second opinion/examination after one of Dr. Andrews' former students- a member of the Bills' medical staff- recommended rest for Allen's UCL sprain. Dr. Andrews saw the results and corroborated that opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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