billsfan89 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: They are a lot better than where they are now. All young, talented players exchanged for worse players all for familiarity and "culture". Yet KB doesn't give two !@#$s and Star had sucked for about 3 years now. Once again not defending KB or Star (Although I think Star is a decent player just way overpaid for the role and talent level he brings) but while I don't disagree that the team would be better with Glenn along the line, Sammy in the WR core, and with Dareus and Darby out there but that assumes that for one Sammy and Glenn would stay healthy (which there was no guarantee of,) Darby would be a fit in the zone system (which was questionable) and Dareus wouldn't be a issue in the locker room (Which he already was in 2017.) Also this team would be what 7-9 or 8-8 with those players IF They were healthy and not causing an issue? You are acting like those 4-5 players are the difference between the Bills contending for a Super Bowl and being what they are now. The Bills in 2019 will be in a position to add massive amounts of talent around Allen and maybe add a pass rusher to the defense. That's not saying McBeane will add better players with the cap space but rather that was the right way to go about it in order to actually be able to put the team in a position to rebuild properly. Yes even if the team was paying Cordy, Sammy, and Dareus while also possibly handing Darby a deal the Bills still would have some cap space to add some talent but they probably would be paying those 3 for diminishing returns towards the back end of second contracts as opposed to being able to add a lot of talent in short order. Cordy, Sammy, and Dareus would be eating up 45 million on the cap and two out of three have massive injury issues and the third was an under-performing malcontent who was also overpaid. I would rather have the draft picks that helped net Allen and Edumonds while also retaining cap space than pay those three who would help the team go 7-9 or 8-8. Sometimes you have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward. Edited October 4, 2018 by billsfan89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughting Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: You are confusing talentvand culture again. I have never said you don't need talent. Neither did McD although people keep trying to say he did. Talent wedded to a solid culture makes teams and organizations successful. The three guys I mentioned are the types that worked hardest in practice. They challenged their teammates to do the same and accepted no less than that. That is how culture can make organizations successful. I disagree. Culture is the expectations you place on the employees of a company. It's you DNA and that DNA influences all you do from there. Mission and vision statements define culture in my view (and where I work), and directly affect strategic decisions. I invite you to visit any successful company and ask them if culture isn't real. I think they will tell you that you are mistaken. What if the employees, who are otherwise great human beings, can't meet those expectations? Or are only people that can meet those expectations part of the culture? What is the nature of your business? 6 minutes ago, dickleyjones said: culture is real. and it is part of strategy. this is really not difficult... So you're saying that strategy trumps culture, which is what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 The only guy we really couldn't afford to pay was Gilmore. Other than that, we could have maintained a quality roster and tried to figure out the QB position long term. There was no need for this tear down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) Sometimes McCoach sounds like an uninspired motivational speaker. This bit about "culture" just seems like another cliche like: Trust the process. I have to watch the tape. You either win or you learn . . . Is there a problem with the Chief's culture because Sammy plays there now? Is there a problem with the Jags' culture because Dareus plays there now? Is there a problem with the Rams' culture because Woods and Robey-Coleman play there? Is there a problem with the 49ers' culture because Goodwin plays there? Is there a problem with the Pats' culture because Hogan and Gilmore play there? Is the Bills' culture better this year without Richie than it was last year or years before with Richie? If "culture" were the issue, Paris would be the best team in the NFL if it had a football team (one other than PSG). Edited October 4, 2018 by Peter 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Wroughting said: What if the employees, who are otherwise great human beings, can't meet those expectations? Or are only people that can meet those expectations part of the culture? What is the nature of your business? So you're saying that strategy trumps culture, which is what exactly? I work in health care. We had a new CEO come in several years ago, and what he did was change the culture. His message was simple: it's about the patient. Everything our organization does, from hiring to food service to whatever, is based on being focused on patients. Not what's convenient for us, or what we might like. I was given the role of explaining this change in focus to nursing staff. One of our expectations under that culture is we smile to patients and their families. One nurse told me: I don't smile. I told her: you need to decide if you want to be part of our organization. Very talented at nursing duties, but terrible at adapting to the new culture. Lot of folks left, but a lot of talented folks joined because they want to be part of that culture. We now are the market leader in many areas. How does that relate to McD? Simple. He is defining the culture of the Buffalo Bills. His message I think is equally clear: it's about football, plain and simple. 4 minutes ago, Peter said: Sometimes McCoach sounds like an uninspired motivational speaker. This bit about "culture" just seems like another cliche like: Trust the process. I have to watch the tape. You either win or you learn . . . Is there a problem with the Chief's culture because Sammy plays there now? Is there a problem with the Jags' culture because Dareus plays there now? Is there a problem with the Rams' culture because Woods and Robey-Coleman play there? Is there a problem with the 49ers' culture because Goodwin plays there? Is there a problem with the Pats' culture because Hogan and Gilmore play there? Is the Bills' culture better this year without Richie than it was last year or years before with Richie? If "culture" were the issue, Paris would be the best team in the NFL if it had a football team (one other than PSG). You don't think guys like Dareus were told this is how it is in JVille? Or the guys in NE by Brady and Belichick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I work in health care. We had a new CEO come in several years ago, and what he did was change the culture. His message was simple: it's about the patient. Everything our organization does, from hiring to food service to whatever, is based on being focused on patients. Not what's convenient for us, or what we might like. I was given the role of explaining this change in focus to nursing staff. One of our expectations under that culture is we smile to patients and their families. One nurse told me: I don't smile. I told her: you need to decide if you want to be part of our organization. Very talented at nursing duties, but terrible at adapting to the new culture. Lot of folks left, but a lot of talented folks joined because they want to be part of that culture. We now are the market leader in many areas. How does that relate to McD? Simple. He is defining the culture of the Buffalo Bills. His message I think is equally clear: it's about football, plain and simple. You don't think guys like Dareus were told this is how it is in JVille? Or the guys in NE by Brady and Belichick? I don't think that Dareus was a "cultural" problem. He was very well liked among his teammates, he had just won a community service award, and was very sad when he left. He thought of Buffalo as home. This is a kid who has faced more adversity (people being murdered etc.) than we will ever know. That is just my opinion. P.S. Hogan was never a problem. Gilmore's problem was refusing to tackle and slowing down while an opposing player was running into the end zone so that Gilmore could blame someone else. Even still, he did not seem to hurt the Pats "culture" last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughting Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I was given the role of explaining this change in focus to nursing staff. A change in focus is literally a new strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Just remember strategy doesnt mean talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Peter said: I don't think that Dareus was a "cultural" problem. He was very well liked among his teammates, he had just won a community service award, and was very sad when he left. He thought of Buffalo as home. This is a kid who has faced more adversity (people being murdered etc.) than we will ever know. That is just my opinion. P.S. Hogan was never a problem. Gilmore's problem was refusing to tackle and slowing down while an opposing player was running into the end zone so that Gilmore could blame someone else. Even still, he did not seem to hurt the Pats "culture" last year. I feel sorry for Dareus and hope he finally straightens out. But do you recall when he missed the bus (bus, plane) for the preseason game? McD didn't ignore it, came down on him, but I also remember the pictures of him on the practice field with Dareus one on one. He tried to reach the kid, but reaching him meant (I think) that he had to buy into the culture. And he wouldn't or couldn't . I hope for his sake Marrone gets him to. I agree about Hogan and Gilmore; those were financial decisions vs. culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughting Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said: Just remember strategy doesnt mean talent. No, but I think most winning strategies would involve getting more talented players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Wroughting said: A change in focus is literally a new strategy. No it's not. It was a deliberate cultural shift. Our culture now centers or one thing: it's all about the patient. And that dictates strategies. Like expecting our employees to smile with patients and their families. We may define things differently, but to get back to the team it's still simple. When you are the leader of the team one of your jobs is to set the culture of the team and hold folks to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boca BIlls Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, Wroughting said: No, but I think most winning strategies would involve getting more talented players. They just signed a talented DT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wroughting Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: No it's not. It was a deliberate cultural shift. Our culture now centers or one thing: it's all about the patient. And that dictates strategies. Like expecting our employees to smile with patients and their families. We may define things differently, but to get back to the team it's still simple. When you are the leader of the team one of your jobs is to set the culture of the team and hold folks to that. We define things differently because you're defining them incorrectly. I'll assume you work for a private company. The goal of the company is to survive, which typically means making money. Your boss developed a strategy, put the patient first. He then employed tactics, such as hiring friendly nurses and making staff smile. It sounds like his strategy paid off. None of that has anything to do with culture. McDermott is collecting his friendly nurses, the Rams are developing the cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: $8.5M. But then there's the $3.5M peanuts we scattered for Coleman. $8.5+$3.5 = $12M $6.7M this year (Star) vs $9.9M (Dareus) plus different distribution of the bonus Once, Dareus was by far the better player. Last year he was here - I'm not sure he was better than Star. The cap hell is real, but it's a hell of our own creating. Marcel is better when motivated, not hurt, and is actually not suspended......the problem is Star is none of those things he simply does his job quietly and is a locker room guy (lets call it a process guy) so whats your pleasure......the wildcard for more or the dependable but unspectacular for less? We did create our own cap hell......but Beane isnt responsible for it....he was brought in to FIX it....which is happening this year. People just cant seem to wrap their mind around that fact......we have something like THREE MILLION dead cap next year. 4 minutes ago, Wroughting said: We define things differently because you're defining them incorrectly. I'll assume you work for a private company. The goal of the company is to survive, which typically means making money. Your boss developed a strategy, put the patient first. He then employed tactics, such as hiring friendly nurses and making staff smile. It sounds like his strategy paid off. None of that has anything to do with culture. McDermott is collecting his friendly nurses, the Rams are developing the cure. The rams have gone through their season's of losing and collecting blue chip draft talent....they are simply at different stages of their development....he is NOT defining them correctly. That is your interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Just now, John from Riverside said: We did create our own cap hell......but Beane isnt responsible for it....he was brought in to FIX it....which is happening this year. People just cant seem to wrap their mind around that fact......we have something like THREE MILLION dead cap next year. John, the point is, there were other strategies and choices for straightening out the cap. They chose this one - maybe it's the best strategy, maybe it isn't, but please - don't ignore the fact that there were other strategies or choices. Or shall I say "people just can't seem to wrap their mind around that fact"? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, Wroughting said: We define things differently because you're defining them incorrectly. I'll assume you work for a private company. The goal of the company is to survive, which typically means making money. Your boss developed a strategy, put the patient first. He then employed tactics, such as hiring friendly nurses and making staff smile. It sounds like his strategy paid off. None of that has anything to do with culture. McDermott is collecting his friendly nurses, the Rams are developing the cure. Sorry but you're wrong again. A non-profit health care organization first of all. Second our culture is simple: it's about the patient. We pursue a ton of strategies such as smiling when with patients, making sure they can get into a doc's office with 24 hours, many others. But every single strategy is influenced by having a culture where the needs of the patient are placed first. You bring up the Rams. Is their success culture or strategy? And why do they have to be mutually exclusive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: John, the point is, there were other strategies and choices for straightening out the cap. They chose this one - maybe it's the best strategy, maybe it isn't, but please - don't ignore the fact that there were other strategies or choices. Or shall I say "people just can't seem to wrap their mind around that fact"? No doubt they could have done other things....but would that not feel like the "band aid" that we have been doing for years? We have never actually seen this team do a real rebiuld....its usually been attempts at reloads and trying to get enough wins to not look average (and we ended up looking average at best) There were a lot of ppl myself included that felt a full rebiuld was the only thing the team has not tried in order to become relevent.....rebiulds are frustrating....take more time then we want them to.......all of that....but sometimes necessary. The rebiuld started last year....we are in the middle of it...year 3 will be comeing out the other side of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Ive had a WONDERFUL day today, but good grief, I have to be negative here for a second unfortunately. You trade a THIRD for Kelvin Benjamin YOUR GUY and even he doesn't buy in! Your own dude, c'mon man, that's alarming. What culture change? Seriously? Zay Jones had to tell him where to LINE UP. Culture change? hahahahahahaha 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: No doubt they could have done other things....but would that not feel like the "band aid" that we have been doing for years? We have never actually seen this team do a real rebiuld....its usually been attempts at reloads and trying to get enough wins to not look average (and we ended up looking average at best) There were a lot of ppl myself included that felt a full rebiuld was the only thing the team has not tried in order to become relevent.....rebiulds are frustrating....take more time then we want them to.......all of that....but sometimes necessary. The rebiuld started last year....we are in the middle of it...year 3 will be comeing out the other side of it McD and Beane told Terry this was necessary. It was part of their plan. We'll see over the next few years if they are successful with their plan. Everyone on this board should hope they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: McD and Beane told Terry this was necessary. It was part of their plan. We'll see over the next few years if they are successful with their plan. Everyone on this board should hope they are. They've completely neglected offense. I reaaaaaally thought we had a nice draft, but if you wanted to draft defense should have splurged big money on offense in FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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