QBs, NFL Draft, Identity Politics (New Poster)

[Bill from NYC]

17 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

LMAO OK.. you really went for a bizzare parallel here.. nice political rant don't bring that crap here

I get the impression that this is one simpleton with multiple screen names. Nothing to see here.

[Kwai San]

4 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

See very delusional and disrespectful.

Wow......just wow.

[shrader]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Suggesting that any criticism of TT was at all due to his race is absurd.  I say this as a well documented TT supporter.

 

Bills fans would be beyond delighted if Russell Wilson showed up at OBD to sign a long term contract today.  Same is likely true for Newton.  Or Watson.

 

Also, I'm guessing 95% of Bills fans in Buffalo had no idea what Rosen's religion is when they saw him play this season and heard his comments on the NCAA etc.

 

 

 

These kind of things drive me crazy.  Assuming that race is the only reason why someone could form a specific opinion, isn't that itself racist?

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50 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

LMAO OK.. you really went for a bizzare parallel here.. nice political rant don't bring that crap here

The post and response are well within the community message board guidelines and the topic thread laid out by the poster. Report me to admin if your upset. Or exercise your freedom and take your act to that wonderful mills thread, I'm sure that lots of folk will be receptable to your opinions there.

Edited March 28, 2018 by MURPHD6

[ddaryl]

23 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

The post and response are well within the community message board guidelines and the topic thread laid out by the poster. Report me to admin if your upset. Or exercise your freedom and take your act to that wonderful mills thread, I'm sure that lots of folk will be receptable to your opinions there.

 

LMAO move along son.

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8 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

LMAO move along son.

Well shucks, mister. I really value your informed opinions on race relations in the United states and would hate to see you go. Quick question, do those who associate the Grateful Dead (and their fans) with peace, love, and tolerance for opposing views bother you. Since your borrowing one of their logos for your avatar pick, do you know what irony means, or are you just into cool pictures of skulls?

[xxxxxxxx]

2 hours ago, CamboBill said:

That is sort of my thinking too  ... and with Jackson two on the "pocket passer" stereotype

There are studies that back both of these points up. Scouts will use different language when describing black players and white players, even when speaking positively. The problem is that alot of people think that being racist just means using the n#### word.

Edited March 28, 2018 by MURPHD6

[CamboBill]

2 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

 Oh I didn't mean to offend. And I didn't mean specifically you.

 

But as you say even in your reply here, a goodly percentage of Western men fitting your general profile, both tourists and expatriates, do travel there to live outside of laws governing what we here would consider to be depraved behaviors.

 

So in the spirit of your post, which I will paraphrase here : (I am) Not suggesting that [all critics of Tyrol are racist,] expatriates living in souteast Asia are there to exploit the vulnerable,  but I am wondering, particularly how your not being in [Buffalo] America for many years, how much [race] sexual depravity and the availability of meagerly paid exploited domestic workers, is a factor in [anti-Tyrod sentiments] your general demographic group deciding to live there.

 

So as you can see I was merely hoping to broaden the open honest dispassionate discussion.

 

Or put another way, if you don't like it, don't start it.

 

 

You are on to something here.

 

Similar to the baseball stereotypes of can hit the ball, or can pitch the ball. Or the basketball ones of "can rebound or can hit the hoop and score points"

 

Much to be suspicious of here.

 

Even within football itself, no one ever criticizes a running back for being able to run the ball. They only complain when they can not. They do not point out that  lack of being able to run with football can be offset by a remarkable ability to pass. It is the glaring elephant in the room about how no one even ever mentions that a running back can not read the defense or throw the ball with accuracy. It is if because most running backs are black, people don't even EXPECT that they can throw the ball. 

 

 

 Your analogies as to trying to connect criticism of tyrod  to criticism of some of those who criticize tyrod to stereotypes that some uninformed people have about expat life fail any logic test. Not really up to just getting trolled but if you want to discuss living in SEA ..'start a thread in the non football forum and link me to it. This thread should be football centric.

18 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Well shucks, mister. I really value your informed opinions on race relations in the United states and would hate to see you go. Quick question, do those who associate the Grateful Dead (and their fans) with peace, love, and tolerance for opposing views bother you. Since your borrowing one of their logos for your avatar pick, do you know what irony means, or are you just into cool pictures of skulls?

That actually is a cool avatar he has .... Deadhead Bill ....love it.

[BuffaloSol]

3 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

Well shucks, mister. I really value your informed opinions on race relations in the United states and would hate to see you go. Quick question, do those who associate the Grateful Dead (and their fans) with peace, love, and tolerance for opposing views bother you. Since your borrowing one of their logos for your avatar pick, do you know what irony means, or are you just into cool pictures of skulls?

Is it still "cool" to act superior to others based on your political beliefs. Because although you are trying to seem "hip" you come off as someone throwing a hissy fit because other people don't agree that racism has anything to do with Lamar or Tyrod.

 

You know why most rational people don't think that Race plays a part......because most people enjoy facts and sources when you call a whole group of people racist. Then also make assumptions that the staff and decision makers at OBD make decisions about personnel the color of their skin, again with no proof. I know you'll try and rationalize it like OP but, sorry for me it's not okay to cry racism and point fingers without proof.

[CamboBill]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

 

These kind of things drive me crazy.  Assuming that race is the only reason why someone could form a specific opinion, isn't that itself racist?

One problem with people who rage too much about any mention of race or identity politics is that they always exaggerate (misrepresent) the others points. Neither I nor any other person  on this thread has said "race is the only reason" as you and Mr. WEO  suggest.    .These types of tactics make it impossible to discuss anything with some people.

 

I have questioned whether it  race is (was) a factor with Tyrox and how much.   If some people believe it was zero factor that is their right.  I am trying to get a feel for how much of an issue people think this is.  From where I sit Tyrol deserved better from fans and management.  Past is past but now i see all the negative posts about Lamar Jackson.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

8 hours ago, CamboBill said:

Hi All,

 

I am a new poster but long time reader who left upstate NY in the late 80s and left the USA in the mid 90s.  Have lived in Southeast Asia since then. As far as I know I am the only Bills fan in this part of the world.  If any others ... please give a shout out.  .  NFL game pass and MBs like this are very helpful in being able to follow my favorite sports team, but not being in the area it is hard to get a real pulse on the fan base.

 

A couple of observations .... Tyrod Taylor ... to me a decent QB and game manager and high character guy.  Far from being the "answer" at QB but better than anything we have had there since the 90s .  I get fans wanting more from the position ... I don't get the seemingly outright hatred on this board for him and outright dismissal of his contributions.  I am fine with moving on from him even though I thought he was under appreciated here.  Reading some posts here it seems like Warren Moon 2.0 could come here and get run out of town.  Not suggesting that all critics of Tyrol are racist, but I am wondering, particularly not being in Buffalo for many years, how much race is a factor in anti-Tyrod sentiments.  I find it more troubling when I see people so quick to dismiss Lamar Jackson .... a much different player than Tyrod ... as if all athletic black QBS are the same.  Hopefully without turning this thread into a flame fest on race, I am generally interested if people see it as an issue among some significant parts of the fan base.

 

Similarly I see a trend ... league wide ... with Josh Rosen.  I get the durability concerns but all the character concerns noise appears to be nonsense.  Never mentioned directly, is the fact that Rosen is Jewish, and a lot of the attacks on him seem to carry the traces of "antisemitism" .... soft, born with silver spoon in his mouth, outspoken, trouble maker ... and I see nothing to substantiate this.  He criticized Trump ... that is his right.  He commented about NCAA'S profiteering for  student atheletes ... rightfully so IMHO ... as is also his right. Personally I prefer a QB with a brain and not a robot who just marches to the drum beat.  Anyway, I predict the kid will go to a city with a large Jewish Population (NY, or MIA or LAC in a trade up) and will thrive (as long as he stays healthy).  The concerns in some cities  are he is not "blue collar" enough.   What does this mean in a QB setting??? ..... he needs to wave the flag more and never challenge authority?  This is not what Blue Collar meant when I grew up in the USA (60s through 80s).

 

As far as the draft goes ... a few comments and predictions:

 

1) Browns go with D'arnold #1

2) Giants look to trade down .... I really hope it is not the Bills because the price will be far too high ... particularly if 2019  first rounder is included. As long as the Bills don't to something stupid I don't see anyone else paying that price.  So Giants will either need to discount with Bills or will draft Barkley.  The Bills paying 3 first rounders and 2 or 3 second rounders (as is rumored to be the Giants asking price) is my worst night mare for this draft.

3) Jets grab Rosen who will be a great fit for them.

4) Serious Trading starts here ... Browns need help at OT but this is too early for McGlinchey.  Bills trade  #12 and #22 for #4.  They are likely bidding against Mia and Arizona here, so if they have to sweeten with a mid rounder so be it. .... choice of  L Jackson,  J Allen, or Mayfield here and I am fine with any although I prefer LJ, JA, BM in that order.

5) If the Browns don't deal #4 and take Chubb instead .. Then Denver takes  J Allen ... rocky Mountain boy somewhat reminiscent of Elway.

6) The Colts do not need to trade down again ... take Q Nelson

7) The draft's player values  start to level off here with Barkley,  Chubb, Nelson off the board.  Thus Chi and TB might make good trade up partners if we fail with the Browns and are smart enough to walk away from the Giants.  Cost should be #12 plus a 2nd rounder .... maybe a bit more if Mia or Ari is aggressively in on the pink.  Allen is gone here but we would still jave a choice of Lamar Jackson or Mayfield.

 

I don't think a decent Qb will be available at #12, but I don't think it makes sense to overpay for #2 either.  the gap be ween the best Qb and the 5th best is just not that high this year.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

 

 

Come back to America.

 

 

[CamboBill]

20 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

There are studies that back both of these points up. Scouts will use different language when describing black players and white players, even when speaking positively.

Interesting. If you have time I would appreciate any links you might have.

[BuffaloSol]

39 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

There are studies that back both of these points up. Scouts will use different language when describing black players and white players, even when speaking positively. The problem is that alot of people think that being racist just means using the n#### word.

The "study" was a just a searchable database that only seperated results based on white or black, and allowed you to search for words used by scouts to describe players. And although there was no real context or much of a real significant statistical difference. Example of the context that was lacking- was the player a QB that more often is white  and more likely to be called a leader because he is a qb. Another example- was the player a running back that is more likely to be black called agile because he is a running back. Then if the prospects were all qbs just because they are dedcribed differently like dual-threat doesnt make the scout racist or wrong. Sorry I just debunked another "source" of Racism even though you really want it to be so.

 

I got an idea. You should set up a go fund me account for the black NFL prospects based on that though. I can't even imagine what those poor football players being spoken of positively in different ways, most likely due to position, must be going through. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by BuffaloSol

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14 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

Is it still "cool" to act superior to others based on your political beliefs. Because although you are trying to seem "hip" you come off as someone throwing a hissy fit because other people don't agree that racism has anything to do with Lamar or Tyrod.

 

You know why most rational people don't think that Race plays a part......because most people enjoy facts and sources when you call a whole group of people racist. Then also make assumptions that the staff and decision makers at OBD make decisions about personnel the color of their skin, again with no proof. I know you'll try and rationalize it like OP but, sorry for me it's not okay to cry racism and point fingers without proof.

 

16 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

Is it still "cool" to act superior to others based on your political beliefs. Because although you are trying to seem "hip" you come off as someone throwing a hissy fit because other people don't agree that racism has anything to do with Lamar or Tyrod.

 

You know why most rational people don't think that Race plays a part......because most people enjoy facts and sources when you call a whole group of people racist. Then also make assumptions that the staff and decision makers at OBD make decisions about personnel the color of their skin, again with no proof. I know you'll try and rationalize it like OP but, sorry for me it's not okay to cry racism and point fingers without proof.

This is a thread about identity politics and quarterbacks, I'm not going into a TT sucks thread and calling people racist. Your going into a thread for fans concerned about racism and saying that they are delusional and disrespectful. Its a pretty square thing to say, in my opinion, and not keeping with the love, peace, and empathy that Jerry was all about.

[CamboBill]

2 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

Welcome     I had a taste of being a Bills fan in Asia for one year. (Japan)    Not easy, as games are on in the middle of the night if you want to watch live.  NFL.com allows purchase of games on line if the web address is outside the USA if I recall correctly.    But, mostly I watched recorded a day late in an American club while eating dinner, so it was a good experience.

 

You make interesting point about Rosen.....but, I didn't even know he was Jewish until you mentioned it.  That fact remains of no interest to me however, as I don't think that kind of marketing thinking  (land in NY, Miami or LA) goes into the draft process anyhow.  They do check character, but not what church the guy goes to.  Same w the racism angle....the NFL is majority black these days, and nobody cares if a  QB candidate is black or white....just can he play.

Japan is a tough place for NFL.  I rely on NFL Game pass international.  costs between US $200 and $300 per year depending on where you are .... all teams, all games, playoffs, super bowl, off season including combine and draft. NFL channel etc.  I try to stay awake to watch the Bills live but considering most games start at 1am I sometimes wait and watch the game on demand the next day.

 

As to the role of ethnicity in marketing and drafting,  you may br right.  Miami tried several Jewish quarterbacks (Jay Fiedler and Sage Rosenfelc ome to mind) , Markets with large Asian minorities have been the first to bring in baseball talent from Asia. Irish still means something in Boston.  I find it all a bit silly, but I do understand many people (potential ticket buyers and buyers of advertisers' products ) relate to ethnic identity and thus it made a certain amount of marketin sense to attract them.

 

 

[MJS]

I don't like Jackson and I DO think he has some of the same problems that Tyrod has. I don't think that makes me racist.

 

I defended Tyrod for a couple years, but last season converted me to the "he's not good enough to win a championship" camp. Because he's not.

 

I also don't like Josh Allen and plenty of other white QB's past and present.

[BuffaloSol]

6 minutes ago, MURPHD6 said:

 

This is a thread about identity politics and quarterbacks, I'm not going into a TT sucks thread and calling people racist. Your going into a thread for fans concerned about racism and saying that they are delusional and disrespectful. Its a pretty square thing to say, in my opinion, and not keeping with the love, peace, and empathy that Jerry was all about.

It's delusional and disrespectful to assume racism of huge portions of people with zero proof. You are not just concerned about it, you and some others on here are saying it is so with zero proof, even when you try to play connect the dots things are easily explained. Show me the proof that McDermott or a large portion of fans/media based decisions on Tyrod or Lamar skin color and I'll take back the delusional and disrespectful thing. 

[BadLandsMeanie]

35 minutes ago, CamboBill said:

 Your analogies as to trying to connect criticism of tyrod  to criticism of some of those who criticize tyrod to stereotypes that some uninformed people have about expat life fail any logic test. Not really up to just getting trolled but if you want to discuss living in SEA ..'start a thread in the non football forum and link me to it. This thread should be football centric.

 

 

Then why did you raise the issue of "identity Politics"? Why did you elaborate about your living circumstances and your opinions of the place, and your vacation destinations? You raised these issues not me. You related them to football, not me.

 

So I am following along with the narrative and discussion that originated with you. 

 

Just a snippet about Cambodia before I return to Tyrod. I won't put it here for reasons of decorum, but just a tiny bit of research shows that the exploitation of young southeast Asians is also prevalent in Cambodia. (unlike you said).

 

Also just a snippet from wikipedia about cambodia in general, before I explain why i am mentioning it.

 

The country faces numerous challenges. Important sociopolitical issues includes widespread poverty,[10] pervasive corruption,[11] lack of political freedoms,[12] low human development,[13] and a high rate of hunger.[14][15][16] Cambodia has been described by Human Rights Watch's Southeast Asian Director, David Roberts, as a "vaguely communist free-market state with a relatively authoritarian coalition ruling over a superficial democracy." [17]"

 

I am curious why you would choose to direct your humanitarian instincts to advocate for a young man who will have made around 40 million dollars by age 29.

Instead of the circumstances of those around you in Cambodia?

 

What is it about Tyrod that tugs at your heart so? Most would consider him to be in the group at the very top of human experience in terms of looks, physical appearance and gifts, notoriety, and income?

 

This in contrast to those, perhaps outside your very window, who are available for 2 bucks?

 

Teach me oh moral one so that i may learn from you and grow.

 

 

[CamboBill]

9 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

 

Then why did you raise the issue of "identity Politics"? Why did you elaborate about your living circumstances and your opinions of the place, and your vacation destinations? You raised these issues not me. You related them to football, not me.

 

So I am following along with the narrative and discussion that originated with you. 

 

....

 

 

Teach me oh moral one so that i may learn from you and grow.

 

 

You are coming across more than a little thick. This is a football forum, I have raised identity politics in the context of the NFL  ... and more specifically the Bills, the recent ouster of their black QB, the level of vitriol towards him by so many on this board. , and parallel outlooks and stereotypes  as to the only higher rated Black and Jewish QB prospects in the draft this year..

 

This should not be too hard for you to follow.

 

As to your continued and irrelevant comments about Cambodia ... I have encouraged you to start a thread on that in the non football section of this forum. Link me to it, I will try to sort you out.  it is great you have discovered Wikipedia but it sounds like you could not find  Cambodia on a map.

 

Your continued obsession about sex and who might be "for sale outside my window" comes across as creepy to say the least. There is nobody for sale for $2 here .... I suppose I could head downtown and find a $50 hooker if that were my thing,  but you could probably do the same wherever you live.  Good luck. Hope that idea titilates you, as you are so fixated on these types of topics.

 

 

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

Lamar Jackson reminds me way too much of RG3 the comparisons are endless. Heisman Trophy, good arm, athletic and for while he tricked us into thinking RG3 was going to change the position of QB for the better and make pocket passers a thing of the past. Right up until defenses figured him out and just started pounding him to the ground until his skinny frame couldn't take it anymore. I liked RG3 seemed like a good dude and he got left in that one game too long when clearly he was severely injured. I am just worried that Lamar will come in and do the exact same thing is that irrational? Tyrod is another story being behind in the 4th quarter with him at QB I knew we had already lost the game he had no comeback ability or the it factor. 

I love Rosen as a solid pocket passer that can make all the throws at every level of the defense and is capable of calling plays and audibles and is accurate which is a huge factor for me. He works his butt off and is a perfectionist the fact that he is outspoken on his beliefs doesn't bother me one bit.