John from Riverside Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Very debatable that a WCO fits Tyrods talents. We shall see come TC. Couldn't it also be said the both Roman and Lynn tried to design a system catering to Tyrods talents? I think they somewhat tried but in the end it wasn't the greatest fit. IMO Taylor does what Taylor does and no system might fit all that well with what he does well. I agree that it is a wait and see.....it does not fit with his vertical deep passing game that we have seen so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I agree that it is a wait and see.....it does not fit with his vertical deep passing game that we have seen so far. ...probably my fault John...meant to infer a quicker progression/quicker read/quicker ball out type of offense versus a bonafide WCO, something that help TT with his reads....vertical deep should also be a viable option a/k/a pick 'n choose your spots............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Very debatable that a WCO fits Tyrods talents. We shall see come TC. Couldn't it also be said the both Roman and Lynn tried to design a system catering to Tyrods talents? I think they somewhat tried but in the end it wasn't the greatest fit. IMO Taylor does what Taylor does and no system might fit all that well with what he does well. Lynn never designed a scheme. It was still Roman's scheme but with Lynn game planning and play calling differently. We know Roman's scheme is one that often priortises the outside throws and the safe play, but he also had a lot of success with Alex Smith and Kaep in using the tight ends (Davis and Walker) down the seam. That never happened here bar that game winner when Houston blew a coverage in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 your not listening jmc (or choose not to) YOUR DOING WHAT YOUR WARNING ABOUT Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Huh? Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) And this hear is why you have to change screen names and everyone wonders where you go for a month...... you are the blue print of how to get banned at TSW....congrats You probably think your winning the internet. Mad at your own thoughts ? Okie Dokie Stop being a fraud. Stop making it about me. You're not a mod. Remember that. Edited May 20, 2017 by Maury Ballstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Mad at your own thoughts ? Okie Dokie Stop being a fraud. Stop making it about me. Looking forward to your next vacation....you know its coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 It wasn't exactly insulting to take $15M. If the Bills didn't think that he had at least a chance they would have let him walk. Instead they gave him a prove it deal with the opportunity to prove it. Tyrod, knowing the system, bet on himself. Lots of QBs have done this with varying degrees of success. Flacco and Cousins seem to be the best examples of guys who've succeeded doing it. A chance at what? Improving? Of course he has a chance, they just weren't willing to bet on it. Neither am I. They gave him a prove it deal, but they had to get him to give up the "I'm proven" deal, which speaks to how they feel about TT. A large point of contention in this topic, but I think we're on the same page here. And that's the key difference between the case of TT and Flacco/Cousins. Neither of those guys were forced into taking paycuts to "prove" it. It's not like he's making $1M, I agree, but it is a significant paycut and an expression of their confidence in him as a player going forward. Tyrod isn't for everyone but with his QBR, TD:INT ratio and offensive DVOA rankings under him he will be a starter in the NFL for the near future. His numbers stack up favorably to Tannehill, Smith and (gasp) Flacco since he took over. Those guys you can win with but don't win because of. Sure, that's fine. Even with all those numbers, TT felt that the Bills would let him walk if he didn't take a paycut. Again, speaking volumes to not only how the Bills felt about him, but what TT, his camp, and his agent believed. Again, a large point of contention in this topic. And I think Flacco streakiness is underrated, just IMO. His week to week ceiling is higher than the other three. I'm not sure what EJ has to do with any of this. I could stack the 2 resumes side-by-side and ask you where you are seeing the similarities but don't want to waste either of our time. The EJ supporters were delusional. The Tyrod supporters aren't delusional. No one believes that he is great (if you are seeing those claims feel free to share). The Tyrod supporters believe that it is really, really hard to find QB play that you can win with. He provided that. The detractors think that you need QB play that you can win because of. I don't think anyone is opposed to upgrading but there are different beliefs on how easy that is to do. The detractors have convinced themselves that you can throw a rock and get what TT provides. The supporters quickly dispel that using comparison and stats. They are delusional about different things. No one thought EJ was "great" either, and they were still delusional. I'm not talking about guys like you, who believe TT is good enough with a team around him, that's subjective and arguable. I'm talking about guys who say things like, "McDermott thinks TT is the QB of the future," or overreact to every single slight to their favorite QB, real or imagined. It's delusion, plain and simple, and it's tiring. It isn't similar in any way to the EJ scenario. There weren't any signs pointing to EJ ever becoming the guy. Tyrod will either take the job and run with it, regress and be released or be a similar type player leaving this debate raging on. The most likely scenario is the 3rd. Agreed, which is why dying on a hill to support scenario #1 or 2 is foolish and delusional. The gross numbers will look better because the attempts will go up in this scheme. As someone that doesn't care (at all) about passing yards I won't be impressed. It's the yards per attempt, red zone & 3rd down efficiency and turnovers that I care about. I expect those to remain fairly steady with the TDs and INTs rising because of the increased attempts. Anyone expecting something different is basing that on the side of the argument that they've chosen to hitch their wagon to. We may get different results but we should expect what we've seen. Maybe they will and maybe they won't. I'm not entirely convinced attempts will rise that meaningfully. What I can say is that player evaluation is subjective. Some folks may be warmer or colder depending on the player. I had no problem with the folks who were warmer on EJ than me. The problem lay on the people who were red hot on EJ when it wasn't truly warranted. I feel we see a similar situation ongoing now. If you think TT is "good enough" to hang onto, build around, and hope for some breaks to make a run, I think you have some good evidence to support that stance. If you think the Bills think that TT is the QB of the future, and that "there's no reason he can't improve," and he's bordering on irreplaceable, I think that's absurd. And it paints other topics, too. The greatest pushback on drafting QB's or QB prospects on TBD historically have always been the chief, vocal supporters of one of the incumbent QB's. The EJ supporters hated the idea of drafting Carr because of the implication. The JP and Trent guys and etc etc. Am I supposed to believe that all of the pushback from drafting a QB in the 2016 and 2017 classes (three of whom went in the top 12) was not painted by any TT bias? Especially when some of the most vocal TT supporters were EJ guys to the last? That's what I contend with. I think there are great opinions (mainly the ones I agree with), solid opinions, and bad opinions. Believing that the Bills view TT as the QB of the future falls in the third category to me. He is being paid $15M when they could have walked away and taken a QB at 10. They didn't. They are CLEARLY asking him to prove it. I'm not sure it's "arguable" that you can win with him. He's 15-14. The TT guys here were not the EJ guys. You died on one hill or the other. The people that didn't want to move on from EJ thought it was too early to scrap his upside. He hadn't done anything though. The people that aren't ready to scrap TT are more in the "be careful what you wish for club." I don't think that the TT deal says anything other than McDermott is not ready to commit to anyone at QB yet. Whaley would have let him walk. McDermott elected to keep him and evaluate. We will know more this year but I'm not reading into the paycut. If they would have released him it would have told a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) He is being paid $15M when they could have walked away and taken a QB at 10. They didn't. They are CLEARLY asking him to prove it. I'm not sure it's "arguable" that you can win with him. He's 15-14. The TT guys here were not the EJ guys. You died on one hill or the other. The people that didn't want to move on from EJ thought it was too early to scrap his upside. He hadn't done anything though. The people that aren't ready to scrap TT are more in the "be careful what you wish for club." I don't think that the TT deal says anything other than McDermott is not ready to commit to anyone at QB yet. Whaley would have let him walk. McDermott elected to keep him and evaluate. We will know more this year but I'm not reading into the paycut. If they would have released him it would have told a story. I agree on all fronts here. Except the TT crowd shares some left over EJers. I can easily see not wanting to walk away from TT, but I would've liked to see meaningful competition NOW. If you aren't sure he's your guy, keep bringing in guys. Edited May 20, 2017 by jmc12290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I agree on all fronts here. Except the TT crowd shares some left over EJers. I can easily see not wanting to walk away from TT, but I would've liked to see meaningful competition NOW. If you aren't sure he's your guy, keep bringing in guys. How about just being a fan of the whole team and the starting QB whomever it may be? I'm a big fan of T T and also excited about Peterman... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 How about just being a fan of the whole team and the starting QB whomever it may be? I'm a big fan of T T and also excited about Peterman... Those are separate issues. I root for the laundry. If TT is suiting up on Sunday, I root for him to play like Brady. But that doesn't mean on Monday I believe he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 How about just being a fan of the whole team and the starting QB whomever it may be? I'm a big fan of T T and also excited about Peterman... Me too. Those are separate issues. I root for the laundry. If TT is suiting up on Sunday, I root for him to play like Brady. But that doesn't mean on Monday I believe he is. No one is Tom Brady. He is a once in a generation find. Better quit wishing for another Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Those are separate issues. I root for the laundry. If TT is suiting up on Sunday, I root for him to play like Brady. But that doesn't mean on Monday I believe he is. All well and good, and If you have an open mind fan favorites are just that and nothing more IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Me too. No one is Tom Brady. He is a once in a generation find. Better quit wishing for another Brady. Holy smokes, I don't think you could intentionally miss the point more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 The only definitive statement I have made is on how the Bills currently view Tyrod.... which is not as their QB of the future. Are they leaving the option open that he might still become that? Sure. But they don't believe he is now. That has been my argument since I entered this thread. it was easy to see for me. perhaps i have a better feel for your work here. And your very good postings. Seems the thread turned into a mud wallowing for plenty of folks. I do not know any longer what the argument is but, Bills have set up Tyrod to go either way in the business model. Smart call. I think Dennison feels he can make this work, Likely a stronger voice in the room when the dialogues occurred. Just guessing. Bills have given TT nearly everything he could ask for in these New Coaches. I bet he wants to play here knowing this. It is just smart to set up to draft one early next season. I am looking for a win win here. Qb who steps into his role in this offense decisively. And we have two #1s to use as we please. Or Tyrod plays as he did last season and we go ahead and get THE guy next year. all good for me Go Taylor ! Looking forward to your next vacation....you know its coming I cannot believe you just stated that. Thats a threat and you should be banned. so uncool. How about just being a fan of the whole team and the starting QB whomever it may be? I'm a big fan of T T and also excited about Peterman... see how easy that is Everyone ? well done my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Me too. No one is Tom Brady. He is a once in a generation find. Better quit wishing for another Brady. Holy smokes, I don't think you could intentionally miss the point more. I don't think he did, perhaps lowering your expectations a little might help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I don't think he did, perhaps lowering your expectations a little might help? I'm not wishing for another Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I don't think he did, perhaps lowering your expectations a little might help? ......don't see TT as the clear cut incumbent for a multitude of reasons and hardly ALL of them are because of him....the coaching environment sucked starting with Wrecks.....David Lee was HIGHLY overrated as a developmental guy which is something TT certainly needed....Roman's first choice was Cassel and he went nuts when Whaley traded him....so how much did he actually invest in TT?....Lynn was cast into an unenviable role and tried to pick up the pieces while maintaining some type of offensive order.....so all of that dysfunction is old news, thank God.....and it's asinine to twist TT's renegotiated deal/$10 mil cut into anything more than McD being fiscally responsible as in "show me what you have at a reasonable number...prove yourself and a bigger payday is there for the taking"...pretty smart philosophy if I may say so......so the slate is clean and TT certainly has a leg up with six years at this level (4 as an understudy and 2 as a starter) which I'm sure counts for something with McD.....BUT...it does not equate to incumbent starter which it should not IMO.....flame away.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 ......don't see TT as the clear cut incumbent for a multitude of reasons and hardly ALL of them are because of him....the coaching environment sucked starting with Wrecks.....David Lee was HIGHLY overrated as a developmental guy which is something TT certainly needed....Roman's first choice was Cassel and he went nuts when Whaley traded him....so how much did he actually invest in TT?....Lynn was cast into an unenviable role and tried to pick up the pieces while maintaining some type of offensive order.....so all of that dysfunction is old news, thank God.....and it's asinine to twist TT's renegotiated deal/$10 mil cut into anything more than McD being fiscally responsible as in "show me what you have at a reasonable number...prove yourself and a bigger payday is there for the taking"...pretty smart philosophy if I may say so......so the slate is clean and TT certainly has a leg up with six years at this level (4 as an understudy and 2 as a starter) which I'm sure counts for something with McD.....BUT...it does not equate to incumbent starter which it should not IMO.....flame away.......... T T has much to prove in the passing game, good post, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) T T has much to prove in the passing game, good post, ...and the ball is in Dennison's court to design a system that exploits the kid's talents....cannot deny he is lacking in talent.......those are the traits of a good coach.....everybody yips about Brady and Belichick and that Brady thrives as a system guy....who the hell designed the system to exploit his talents, Bob Kraft?.......who altered the "system" that enabled Brissett to go 3-1?...good 'ol mumblin', stumblin' Ditka said on ESPN, "you can have the greatest system in the world but if you don't have the players to execute it, you fail"......Belichick is THE master of adjustments and a top 5 GOAT because of it IMO.......... Edited May 20, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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