Sources: Chasm between Bills coaches, front office on Tyrod

[3rdand12]

Maybe Whaley should email DePodesta and find out what TT's WAR stat is?

I don't know what that means. sorry

I think you nailed it here. And I suspect Whaley knows what his own position is and has made that known to McD and Co. And I suspect Whaley's thoughts are like most around here; that TT's current performance to date suggests nothing better than a place holder and placem holders don't get you to the promised land unless everything else is in place, which it certainly isn't here.

 

I'm more interested in what the new staff thinks. I don't think they saw anything different in their film reviews, so your question is key: can he be coached to the next level? I think the answer is different for a two year starter going into his third year than it is for a two year starter going into his seventh.

I worry this is what the new staff sees too.

Its certainly a possibility.

With fresh set of eyes and need to succeed, McD and Friends, hopefully find the answer for us.

[K-9]

Let me ask this? what is the point of saving money for two years if your chances of making playoffs decrease. We have not been able to build anything consistent till TT. Not good but consistent. You bring back Tyrod so you do not fall further away from the end game. 30 Mil guaranteed , while you draft the next one up.

 

Keep drafting, Tyrod is not going to take us there? Okay. But you have to keep playing to win, or you never develop a culture of winning

Since I'm playing devil's advocate, I'll answer with a question: what is the point of NOT saving money for three years if spending that money doesn't dramatically INCREASE your chances of making the playoffs? If TT is the bridge talent we all think he is, how does he get us there? By having everything else in place around him, that's how. Is the rest of our team playoff caliber right now and in a position to carry a bridge talent? Really? Again, I can see how they might be asking themselves that same question. And I can certainly see how that investment might be spent in helping to get the rest of there.

 

As a fan, I don't want to see TT gone for even a marginally lesser player and for marginally lesser results, so I agree with you. But I see the practicalities of the situation and can understand the thinking at least.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

No proof provided in the article, Russ Brandon no longer makes football decisions, and it's by JLC

 

I'd say this is BS

Edited March 5, 2017 by TheyCallMeAndy

[K-9]

He is being paid as a mid tier starter which is what he is.... and he adds a lot more then that.

He put it to rest and letting him go essentially means your mailing in 2017 for the sake of a little cap room for what? A RT to protect a worse QB?

Letting him walk is the wrong move but would be typical Bills.

TT put the question to rest? None of this conversation takes place if that were the case. Not. At. All.

[Maury Ballstein]

He is being paid as a mid tier starter which is what he is.... and he adds a lot more then that.

He put it to rest and letting him go essentially means your mailing in 2017 for the sake of a little cap room for what? A RT to protect a worse QB?

Letting him walk is the wrong move but would be typical Bills.

Mailing it in is having Tyrod play vs any .500 team.

 

I don't know why you keep saying it's a tank without a subpar starter, it makes zero sense

 

7-9 WITH browns, 49ers, Rams, and jags. It'll be 10x worse if they foolishly let him take another snap without the creampuffs on the schedule.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Ryan L Billz

[K-9]

His a mid tier starter and led the offense to the 6th most TDs in the NFL.... I don't think he's a franchise QB, but holding onto him and building some success WHILE FIXING THE AWFUL DEFENSE the next couple years instead of taking a complete shot in the dark with a rookie is the easy decision for me.

I'm sure that's all being deliberated. And for good reason.

 

Either way, we will be treading water until the talent level surrounding the QB is good enough to support a middling talent, whether that's TT, a rookie, or a veteran. And that needs to be considered as well.

[Maury Ballstein]

His a mid tier starter and led the offense to the 6th most TDs in the NFL.... I don't think he's a franchise QB, but holding onto him and building some success WHILE FIXING THE AWFUL DEFENSE the next couple years instead of taking a complete shot in the dark with a rookie is the easy decision for me.

 

Where did I say it was a tank?

"Mailing in the season" Anyhoo

 

We've danced for months. We obviously agree to disagree.

[3rdand12]

Since I'm playing devil's advocate, I'll answer with a question: what is the point of NOT saving money for three years if spending that money doesn't dramatically INCREASE your chances of making the playoffs? If TT is the bridge talent we all think he is, how does he get us there? By having everything else in place around him, that's how. Is the rest of our team playoff caliber right now and in a position to carry a bridge talent? Really? Again, I can see how they might be asking themselves that same question. And I can certainly see how that investment might be spent in helping to get the rest of there.

 

As a fan, I don't want to see TT gone for even a marginally lesser player and for marginally lesser results, so I agree with you. But I see the practicalities of the situation and can understand the thinking at least.

Its a fair discussion for sure.

 

If we draft at ten? How long till we start the new guy?

Particular to this draft class.

In 3 years when we might be contending, we will have to have to be getting ready for new contracts if they are successful.

Ragland Lawson Washington etc.

I think we are both playing Devils advocate, ( I most often take that stance ).

These draftees should be expecting to be paid if they play well.

 

Gilmore is s good example. Drafted high and played up to his draft pick. But we can hardly afford his wishes.

 

Think about 3-4 key guys we cannot afford when our pick at QB this year is just good enough to take us somewhere beyond mediocrity. The place we are now. Which is BTW better then we were 5 years ago-10 years ago.

 

We both know it is a delicate balance . Foresight and timing, and a ton of luck. I think most of us know that. Perfect storm nearly.

I remain in a win now mode till i learn better.

I'm sure that's all being deliberated. And for good reason.

 

Either way, we will be treading water until the talent level surrounding the QB is good enough to support a middling talent, whether that's TT, a rookie, or a veteran. And that needs to be considered as well.

I think Bills need to keep building a solid team. Not a superstar team. Continue to develop the foundation. well as soon as we have one anyways

we all know where the basement is and the ground floor is still in progress

[C.Biscuit97]

Too many folks are saying TT is the best FA QB option.

How can the Bills let him walk?

Because other people don't watch the Bills as much as we do. Taylor's stats look pretty good on paper. He played maybe his best game against Seattle on MNF.

 

But they don't see him missing open WRs and limiting the play calls. Or going 3 and out 7 times in a row in Miami and making the defense exhausted.

 

Taylor is an average to slightly below average starter in this league. You can do much worse. But a 4th round rookie qb, Dak, looked better as passer than he ever had in his 5th year. Is that worth of money? It's a tough decision.

[K-9]

Its a fair discussion for sure.

If we draft at ten? How long till we start the new guy?

Particular to this draft class.

In 3 years when we might be contending, we will have to have to be getting ready for new contracts if they are successful.

Ragland Lawson Washington etc.

I think we are both playing Devils advocate, ( I most often take that stance ).

These draftees should be expecting to be paid if they play well.

 

Gilmore is s good example. Drafted high and played up to his draft pick. But we can hardly afford his wishes.

 

Think about 3-4 key guys we cannot afford when our pick at QB this year is just good enough to take us somewhere beyond mediocrity. The place we are now. Which is BTW better then we were 5 years ago-10 years ago.

We both know it is a delicate balance . Foresight and timing, and a ton of luck. I think most of us know that. Perfect storm nearly.

I remain in a win now mode till i learn better.

Devil's advocate again: your Gilmore example for instance. Might (key word being might) TT's money better be used to retain Gilmore? Or on obtaining another player who is also far better at his position than TT is at his? Is it unreasonable to keep or obtain a couple key pieces elsewhere when it is reasonable to assume TT's play at QB isn't gonna get you to the playoffs, either? We need good players in several areas. Might that be a consideration in the decision? I can see how it would at least be a consideration.

[3rdand12]

Because other people don't watch the Bills as much as we do. Taylor's stats look pretty good on paper. He played maybe his best game against Seattle on MNF.

 

But they don't see him missing open WRs and limiting the play calls. Or going 3 and out 7 times in a row in Miami and making the defense exhausted.

 

Taylor is an average to slightly below average starter in this league. You can do much worse. But a 4th round rookie qb, Dak, looked better as passer than he ever had in his 5th year. Is that worth of money? It's a tough decision.

Dak is not a fair comparison my Friend. Tyrod IS a starting NFL QB regardless of his ranking. and yes his faults have been painful to watch at times. he also has had me cheering. I do not recall that so much over the last so many years.

Continuous improvement though, will always be my mantra

Devil's advocate again: your Gilmore example for instance. Might (key word being might) TT's money better be used to retain Gilmore? Or on obtaining another player who is also far better at his position than TT is at his? Is it unreasonable to keep or obtain a couple key pieces elsewhere when it is reasonable to assume TT's play at QB isn't gonna get you to the playoffs, either? We need good players in several areas. Might that be a consideration in the decision? I can see how it would at least be a consideration.

absolutely, whatever helps the Team win games.

Does Gilmore help us win? Does Tyrod?|

Depends on what the new Coach values I suppose. They do get paid rather well to figure these matters out.

 

You know Gilmore is a sore subject for me. Better have suggested Z Brown whom i am adamant we keep/resign

[K-9]

Dak is not a fair comparison my Friend. Tyrod IS a starting NFL QB regardless of his ranking. and yes his faults have been painful to watch at times. he also has had me cheering. I do not recall that so much over the last so many years.

Continuous improvement though, will always be my mantra

absolutely, whatever helps the Team win games.

Does Gilmore help us win? Does Tyrod?|

Depends on what the new Coach values I suppose. They do get paid rather well to figure these matters out.

 

You know Gilmore is a sore subject for me. Better have suggested Z Brown whom i am adamant we keep/resign

What about both Gilmore and Brown? Or any two other free agents that the new staff perceives as being better to their building plans? Devil's advocate indeed.

 

And yeah, TT had me cheering, too. But only when he didn't have me pulling my hair out. Cheer, hair pull. Cheer, hair pull. Cheer, hair pull. You get the idea.

[3rdand12]

What about both Gilmore and Brown? Or any two other free agents that the new staff perceives as being better to their building plans? Devil's advocate indeed.

 

And yeah, TT had me cheering, too. But only when he didn't have me pulling my hair out. Cheer, hair pull. Cheer, hair pull. Cheer, hair pull. You get the idea.

absolutely, same here.

I am hardly satisfied with the product.

[YoloinOhio]

So much angst over such a mediocre player. Just goes to show how little the Bills have had at QB over the last 2 decades.

[C.Biscuit97]

Dak is not a fair comparison my Friend. Tyrod IS a starting NFL QB regardless of his ranking. and yes his faults have been painful to watch at times. he also has had me cheering. I do not recall that so much over the last so many years.

Continuous improvement though, will always be my mantra

 

absolutely, whatever helps the Team win games.

Does Gilmore help us win? Does Tyrod?|

Depends on what the new Coach values I suppose. They do get paid rather well to figure these matters out.

 

You know Gilmore is a sore subject for me. Better have suggested Z Brown whom i am adamant we keep/resign

With all due respect, why can't you compare Dak to Taylor? Dak was a 4th rookie who's never had a full NFL offseason and played a bunch of games without Dez. And he was already a better passer than Tyrod.

 

I like Tyrod but I will admit I've never been a big fan of smaller qbs who have to rely too much on their legs. I just don't think that is the mobile to consistent win. Tyrod makes big plays and can be fun to watch. But it is painful to watch the struggle to get to 200 yards passing every game in a league that is beginning you to pass.

 

I think Tyrod is a .500 type qb. That's fine but .500 gets you no where in the NFL. We can do worse but we could do better too. It's a tough decision.

[3rdand12]

With all due respect, why can't you compare Dak to Taylor? Dak was a 4th rookie who's never had a full NFL offseason and played a bunch of games without Dez. And he was already a better passer than Tyrod.

 

I like Tyrod but I will admit I've never been a big fan of smaller qbs who have to rely too much on their legs. I just don't think that is the mobile to consistent win. Tyrod makes big plays and can be fun to watch. But it is painful to watch the struggle to get to 200 yards passing every game in a league that is beginning you to pass.

 

I think Tyrod is a .500 type qb. That's fine but .500 gets you no where in the NFL. We can do worse but we could do better too. It's a tough decision.

Because Dak is a much better player than TT. really no comparison at this point

[C.Biscuit97]

Because Dak is a much better player than TT. really no comparison at this point

So why would you pay a guy if a 4th round rookie can be better than him out of the gate? How do we know a Watson or another qb couldn't do what TT does at a much lower cost?

[3rdand12]

So much angst over such a mediocre player. Just goes to show how little the Bills have had at QB over the last 2 decades.

You are too right in regard to the 2 decades.

But TT is quite unique .

Unfortunately he has only yielded mediocre results under Rex's Coaching staff. And that seem likely he wont do much more than that. But could he be effective under new Coaching? I say by March 11 we will know

So why would you pay a guy if a 4th round rookie can be better than him out of the gate? How do we know a Watson or another qb couldn't do what TT does at a much lower cost?

I have never been adverse to drafting any QB the Bills think will improve the team. Including Watson. I think I am misunderstood here.

I do not want to kick out TT till They think they have found an upgrade, it really is as simple as that for me C.

[K-9]

With all due respect, why can't you compare Dak to Taylor? Dak was a 4th rookie who's never had a full NFL offseason and played a bunch of games without Dez. And he was already a better passer than Tyrod.

I like Tyrod but I will admit I've never been a big fan of smaller qbs who have to rely too much on their legs. I just don't think that is the mobile to consistent win. Tyrod makes big plays and can be fun to watch. But it is painful to watch the struggle to get to 200 yards passing every game in a league that is beginning you to pass.

I think Tyrod is a .500 type qb. That's fine but .500 gets you no where in the NFL. We can do worse but we could do better too. It's a tough decision.

Your last sentence is the crux, isn't it? And that's been my point all along; how much more does TT give you, realistically? And with the current supporting cast in place? What about in terms of your schemes? Greg Cosell was spot on when he said committing to TT means certain limitations in your passing game given the weaknesses we've seen for two seasons. How does that jive with Dennison's expectations? We all understand that coaches need to conform to their player's strengths and that's true at times but that can also be another way of saying we need to avoid what he can't do as well. QBs that can't routinely threaten defenses in all areas of the field are simply too easy to defend. Is that worth a few extra wins that might get you to .500? Not an unreasonable question imo.

[3rdand12]

Your last sentence is the crux, isn't it? And that's been my point all along; how much more does TT give you, realistically? And with the current supporting cast in place? What about in terms of your schemes? Greg Cosell was spot on when he said committing to TT means certain limitations in your passing game given the weaknesses we've seen for two seasons. How does that jive with Dennison's expectations? We all understand that coaches need to conform to their player's strengths and that's true at times but that can also be another way of saying we need to avoid what he can't do as well. QBs that can't routinely threaten defenses in all areas of the field are simply too easy to defend. Is that worth a few extra wins that might get you to .500? Not an unreasonable question imo.

Not unreasonable at all.

 

Thanks to you for the patience and good dialogue you Devil.

Cheers all !