Need some help with "Continuity"

[plenzmd1]

Very few fans seem to want to keep Rex and crew for "continuity", but the national pundits will always say "that is why bad teams continue to lose, no continuity" . Golic and Schefter this morning went off on t how foolish it would be to fire Rex after 2 years, and then pointing out the Steelers have had 3 coaches in 40 years, the Pats aren't changing coaches etc.

 

My argument is the Pats had a revolving door at coach till they finally struck gold with Belichick, and the Steelers have just continued to win...so they are no doubt an outlier.

 

Here is my question...can anyone remember a coach or team that had a losing or .500 record in first two years, or a second year that was not trending up, that then went on to huge success in years 3-7 etc by staying with same coach?

 

Maybe Ron Rivera fits the Bill...BB in Cleveland in the early 90's...i cant think of any others.

 

I want ammunition to argue against this asinine argument that winning teams have continuity...they have continuity cause they win if the first couple of years...not because they stay with coaches who are not showing improvement.

 

The big error the Bills make is not firing coaches too soon...the big error is they can't pick a decent coach to start. If anything, i think they stay with bad coaches too long!

[PO16FFS]

BB was nothing before Brady.

 

Steelers are a machine with Ben.

[MDH]

Here is my question...can anyone remember a coach or team that had a losing or .500 record in first two years, or a second year that was not trending up, that then went on to huge success in years 3-7 etc by staying with same coach?

 

Maybe Ron Rivera fits the Bill...BB in Cleveland in the early 90's...i cant think of any !

Seattle under Carrol comes to mind. 7-9 the first two years.

[Fadingpain]

I am a big Red Sox fan and have followed Theo Epstein's moves pretty closely going back a while.

 

He has now brought a championship to the Cubs after doing it in Boston...which means the guy can basically walk on water.

 

One thing I always noted about how the Red Sox did business during his tenure there was that they were huge wheeler dealers. In other words, they were constantly expecting excellence and the ability to win the World Series..and constantly making huge blockbuster deals, moving pieces around, to maintain a level of excellence.

 

A guiding principle in all that was being married to absolutely NO ONE and not being afraid to undo this year's "huge move" next year when it became pretty obvious the move didn't work.

 

Bill B. in New England is just the same.

Look at the big name turnover they have had over the years, particularly on defense...and the machine just keeps running.

 

Welker leaves, find 2 guys just like him and keep the machine running...

 

Sorry to go off on a tangent relative to your main point, but I would argue "continuity" at least in terms of roster has nothing to do with being a well run franchise.

 

Also, the idea for continuity with coaching and front office is to get high quality and then keep it.

if you don't have it in the first place, continuity has no value.

[DC Tom]

Very few fans seem to want to keep Rex and crew for "continuity", but the national pundits will always say "that is why bad teams continue to lose, no continuity" . Golic and Schefter this morning went off on t how foolish it would be to fire Rex after 2 years, and then pointing out the Steelers have had 3 coaches in 40 years, the Pats aren't changing coaches etc.

 

My argument is the Pats had a revolving door at coach till they finally struck gold with Belichick, and the Steelers have just continued to win...so they are no doubt an outlier.

 

Here is my question...can anyone remember a coach or team that had a losing or .500 record in first two years, or a second year that was not trending up, that then went on to huge success in years 3-7 etc by staying with same coach?

 

No...because generally speaking, "trending up" is defined by hindsight in seasons 3-7.

[plenzmd1]

Seattle under Carrol comes to mind. 7-9 the first two years.

argh...good call. Course one of those years they were in the playoffs at 7-9 LOL.

 

The Pats thing drives me nuts., how they are considered the model franchise with this great "continuity" . Just looked at Carrol's record there..

 

10-6 Playoffs

9-7 Playoffs

8-8 Fired

 

So 27-21, gets fired, but they are a model franchise. No, they knew they could do better, and obviously did.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I am a big Red Sox fan and have followed Theo Epstein's moves pretty closely going back a while.

 

He has now brought a championship to the Cubs after doing it in Boston...which means the guy can basically walk on water.

 

One thing I always noted about how the Red Sox did business during his tenure there was that they were huge wheeler dealers. In other words, they were constantly expecting excellence and the ability to win the World Series..and constantly making huge blockbuster deals, moving pieces around, to maintain a level of excellence.

 

A guiding principle in all that was being married to absolutely NO ONE and not being afraid to undo this year's "huge move" next year when it became pretty obvious the move didn't work.

 

Bill B. in New England is just the same.

Look at the big name turnover they have had over the years, particularly on defense...and the machine just keeps running.

 

Welker leaves, find 2 guys just like him and keep the machine running...

 

Sorry to go off on a tangent relative to your main point, but I would argue "continuity" at least in terms of roster has nothing to do with being a well run franchise.

 

Also, the idea for continuity with coaching and front office is to get high quality and then keep it.

if you don't have it in the first place, continuity has no value.

Great points! I'm a huge baseball fan as well and have followed how the better organizations go about their business. They are aggressive and don't look over their shoulders. As you said, last years bad move, if its not working then they move on. The rub in all this is giving things a chance. Pundits always seem to misdiagnose problems. Continuity applies more to when things are going well then you don't try to fix it. Rex will have 32 games in and that is not a small sample size to see progress in the NFL. If we were trending upward like Miami is I might feel differently. Good post.

Edited December 12, 2016 by The Thurmanator

[BuffaloBill]

There might be an argument for continuity with Brandon, Whaley and Rex if there was positive directional movement on one side of the ball but not the other. Say for example that the Defense was a top five unit but the offense was terrible. You might in that situation be able to say there is value in continuity with the HC and defensive staff but a hard look needs to be had with the OC and crew. Rex's problem is he took a top 10 defense and screwed it up unbelievably and the offense sucks. What is there worthy of keeping?

 

Add to the above his team overall is undisciplined and mistake prone. Rex was a player's coach for a while but are any of his players showing that they really care about him right now?

 

The ship is not only sinking it has taken on so much water that it can't be saved. Sad to say for the fans of Buffalo but next season is a rebuilding year again, under a new coach and hopefully a new GM.

 

This is from a guy who really wanted Whaley and Rex to succeed. Rex could have been the perfect personality for Buffalo. He is not HC material his record in NYC and Buffalo speaks for itself.

[Reed83HOF]

BB was nothing before Brady.

 

Steelers are a machine with Ben.

BB was a great D coordinator...

[fridge]

Continuity is the perfect term for the Buffalo Bills franchise. We are continually average. We've tried continuity with Jauron. If you're not good, you're not going to suddenly figure it out in year 5.

 

Rex Ryan has been the head coach for 8 seasons and 125 games. We (stupidly) brought him in to win now. We had a stellar defense. He blew it up - sure, but why would that buy him more time?

[Alphadawg7]

Very few fans seem to want to keep Rex and crew for "continuity", but the national pundits will always say "that is why bad teams continue to lose, no continuity" . Golic and Schefter this morning went off on t how foolish it would be to fire Rex after 2 years, and then pointing out the Steelers have had 3 coaches in 40 years, the Pats aren't changing coaches etc.

 

My argument is the Pats had a revolving door at coach till they finally struck gold with Belichick, and the Steelers have just continued to win...so they are no doubt an outlier.

 

Here is my question...can anyone remember a coach or team that had a losing or .500 record in first two years, or a second year that was not trending up, that then went on to huge success in years 3-7 etc by staying with same coach?

 

Maybe Ron Rivera fits the Bill...BB in Cleveland in the early 90's...i cant think of any others.

 

I want ammunition to argue against this asinine argument that winning teams have continuity...they have continuity cause they win if the first couple of years...not because they stay with coaches who are not showing improvement.

 

The big error the Bills make is not firing coaches too soon...the big error is they can't pick a decent coach to start. If anything, i think they stay with bad coaches too long!

 

This is a fair question. I will bite.

 

As people have seen in the other thread, I am in the camp that I dont think its necessary to fire Rex. I think its a hotter topic here due to the hate of him prior to ever arriving in Buffalo. What that turns into is a biased and blind approach of fairly analyzing the good and the bad of the Bills and Rex. By no means do I think he has been perfect and I have had my days of yelling at him, Roman, Lynn during games. But at the end of the day, when you factor everything into the equation over 2 years and the resulting record, I don't see it as bad as many do. I always try to take an unbiased approach about everything.

 

1. Injuries. I dont care what BS stat JMC or some other poster throws out trying to downplay the impact of the players we lost. The injuries we suffered were to very important players to the overall success of this team, and most teams dont continue to win as most teams dont have quality depth behind those key starters in this era of FA. Despite all those lost players last year and this year, this Rex led team had us competing for playoffs late in the season. And if he wins the next 3 games he will finish the 2 years with a winning record. If he wins 2 of the 3 he have a .500 record over 2 years.

 

2. QB play. Last year, Tyrod had a good first year, but it was by no means great. It was more than most expected, and more of a year we hoped to build on. This year, without many of his weapons the bulk of the year, he failed to progress. Ask many around here and they say he is terrible. Well I don't know many HC who win with terrible QB's. And Tyrod has been the best QB on this roster during those 2 years, so Rex didn't have many choices. EJ lost both his games under Rex filing in for Taylor last year proving TT was our only choice. He can only coach what is ON the roster. And make no mistake about it, even though TT did not progress, he EARNED the right to prove he could this year after a promising start last year.

 

3. OC. There is no denying the progress this team made on offense immediately following the firing of Roman and the promotion of Lynn. Rex had the balls to fire his OC 2 games into the season, and it made a big positive impact. People can speculate all they want, but the only info we definitively have is that it was Rex's decision. Maybe we win those first 2 games with Lynn, maybe we dont...but its reasonable to know our chances would have been better under Lynn based on how the team responded.

 

4. Secondary. This season the secondary has severely regressed. It didn't help when we lost our best Safety early in the season, but the secondary is also dependent on the front 7 and losing 3 starters before the season began, including our best player in Dareus and our top 2 draft picks definitely did not help matters. How much of this based on missing personnel, how much is based on Rex's defense, and how much of this falls on making Ed Reed the DB coach is debatable. Rex seems to get 100% of the blame, but I also don't think its fair either to rest it all on him.

 

So when I sit back and look at it, I just don't see a 2 year record here that screams its all his fault and I can see keeping him. I dont expect others to have the same view, its just how I view the 2 years. I also didn't hate him when he came in from the Jets. At the same time, I am not going to run around and demand we keep him. He hasn't done enough to warrant that kind of support from me, but he also hasn't completely lost me based on the reasons I stated above. If he goes then he goes, I wont lose any sleep over it.

 

The one guy I do want very much to stay is Whaley. He has proven to me he can find talent anywhere and is aggressive at his approach to improve this roster which I really like. He has had more successes than misses in my opinion and I think he was one of the better young GM's in the league. His team friendly deal with Taylor was a major homerun when other prominent franchises have failed miserably in the same department giving mediocre vets (Chicago), old broken QB's (Dallas), young players with a lot to still prove (SF, Miami, Houston, etc) massive contracts that are anchors on their team to QB's who didn't deserve them but the market dictated they get paid that.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

There might be an argument for continuity with Brandon, Whaley and Rex if there was positive directional movement on one side of the ball but not the other. Say for example that the Defense was a top five unit but the offense was terrible. You might in that situation be able to say there is value in continuity with the HC and defensive staff but a hard look needs to be had with the OC and crew. Rex's problem is he took a top 10 defense and screwed it up unbelievably and the offense sucks. What is there worthy of keeping?

 

Add to the above his team overall is undisciplined and mistake prone. Rex was a player's coach for a while but are any of his players showing that they really care about him right now?

 

The ship is not only sinking it has taken on so much water that it can't be saved. Sad to say for the fans of Buffalo but next season is a rebuilding year again, under a new coach and hopefully a new GM.

 

This is from a guy who really wanted Whaley and Rex to succeed. Rex could have been the perfect personality for Buffalo. He is not HC material his record in NYC and Buffalo speaks for itself.

Absolutely true all of it! I would also add that the kicking game is a train wreck as well. This team needs to go for a much tougher coach and end the country club players coach crap. Some of these guys just have no discipline without leadership. And, we lack leadership big time.

[Reed83HOF]

I am a big Red Sox fan and have followed Theo Epstein's moves pretty closely going back a while.

 

He has now brought a championship to the Cubs after doing it in Boston...which means the guy can basically walk on water.

 

One thing I always noted about how the Red Sox did business during his tenure there was that they were huge wheeler dealers. In other words, they were constantly expecting excellence and the ability to win the World Series..and constantly making huge blockbuster deals, moving pieces around, to maintain a level of excellence.

 

A guiding principle in all that was being married to absolutely NO ONE and not being afraid to undo this year's "huge move" next year when it became pretty obvious the move didn't work.

 

Bill B. in New England is just the same.

Look at the big name turnover they have had over the years, particularly on defense...and the machine just keeps running.

 

Welker leaves, find 2 guys just like him and keep the machine running...

 

Sorry to go off on a tangent relative to your main point, but I would argue "continuity" at least in terms of roster has nothing to do with being a well run franchise.

 

Also, the idea for continuity with coaching and front office is to get high quality and then keep it.

if you don't have it in the first place, continuity has no value.

 

I'm a huge Yankee fan and 27 championships say that we know what excellence is and I am pretty sure we are the king of blockbuster deals; more so than the Red Sox

 

BTW - good post

Edited December 12, 2016 by Reed83HOF

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

 

This is a fair question. I will bite.

 

As people have seen in the other thread, I am in the camp that I dont think its necessary to fire Rex. I think its a hotter topic here due to the hate of him prior to ever arriving in Buffalo. What that turns into is a biased and blind approach of fairly analyzing the good and the bad of the Bills and Rex. By no means do I think he has been perfect and I have had my days of yelling at him, Roman, Lynn during games. But at the end of the day, when you factor everything into the equation over 2 years and the resulting record, I don't see it as bad as many do. I always try to take an unbiased approach about everything.

 

1. Injuries. I dont care what BS stat JMC or some other poster throws out trying to downplay the impact of the players we lost. The injuries we suffered were to very important players to the overall success of this team, and most teams dont continue to win as most teams dont have quality depth behind those key starters in this era of FA. Despite all those lost players last year and this year, this Rex led team had us competing for playoffs late in the season. And if he wins the next 3 games he will finish the 2 years with a winning record. If he wins 2 of the 3 he have a .500 record over 2 years.

 

2. QB play. Last year, Tyrod had a good first year, but it was by no means great. It was more than most expected, and more of a year we hoped to build on. This year, without many of his weapons the bulk of the year, he failed to progress. Ask many around here and they say he is terrible. Well I don't know many HC who win with terrible QB's. And Tyrod has been the best QB on this roster during those 2 years, so Rex didn't have many choices. EJ lost both his games under Rex filing in for Taylor last year proving TT was our only choice. He can only coach what is ON the roster. And make no mistake about it, even though TT did not progress, he EARNED the right to prove he could this year after a promising start last year.

 

3. OC. There is no denying the progress this team made on offense immediately following the firing of Roman and the promotion of Lynn. Rex had the balls to fire his OC 2 games into the season, and it made a big positive impact. People can speculate all they want, but the only info we definitively have is that it was Rex's decision. Maybe we win those first 2 games with Lynn, maybe we dont...but its reasonable to know our chances would have been better under Lynn based on how the team responded.

 

4. Secondary. This season the secondary has severely regressed. It didn't help when we lost our best Safety early in the season, but the secondary is also dependent on the front 7 and losing 3 starters before the season began, including our best player in Dareus and our top 2 draft picks definitely did not help matters. How much of this based on missing personnel, how much is based on Rex's defense, and how much of this falls on making Ed Reed the DB coach is debatable. Rex seems to get 100% of the blame, but I also don't think its fair either to rest it all on him.

 

So when I sit back and look at it, I just don't see a 2 year record here that screams its all his fault and I can see keeping him. I dont expect others to have the same view, its just how I view the 2 years. I also didn't hate him when he came in from the Jets. At the same time, I am not going to run around and demand we keep him. He hasn't done enough to warrant that kind of support from me, but he also hasn't completely lost me based on the reasons I stated above. If he goes then he goes, I wont lose any sleep over it.

 

The one guy I do want very much to stay is Whaley. He has proven to me he can find talent anywhere and is aggressive at his approach to improve this roster which I really like. He has had more successes than misses in my opinion and I think he was one of the better young GM's in the league. His team friendly deal with Taylor was a major homerun when other prominent franchises have failed miserably in the same department giving mediocre vets (Chicago), old broken QB's (Dallas), young players with a lot to still prove (SF, Miami, Houston, etc) massive contracts that are anchors on their team to QB's who didn't deserve them but the market dictated they get paid that.

Agreed Whaley is solid. I don't agree with some on TSW who want him gone.

 

I'm not in agreement with your first part. Rex has been trending downward as an NFL coach for several years now. It is time to end the experiment and let Whaley pick his own coach.

Edited December 12, 2016 by The Thurmanator

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

The Jim Schwartz defense was the best unit, offensive or defensive, we have had during the entire drought. It think it is highly likely we would have made the playoffs last year with that defense and the drought would be over. Where the hell was the continuity then? Who has a top 5 unit on either side of the ball in the NFL and throws that out the window? Who has a defense that is better than any other defense in the NFL at rushing the passer and decides that maybe we should go in a different direction on defense. Our defense hadn't peaked yet and we were still, one of the best. Where was the continuity then? I like Rex but it has never been more clear that the game has passed him and the Ryan defense by. Get rid of him, and go back to the 4-3, and let Lawson, Dareus, Williams and Hughes rush the passer.

Edited December 12, 2016 by K-GunJimKelly12

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The Jim Schwartz defense was the best unit, offensive or defensive, we have had during the entire drought. It think it is highly likely we would have made the playoffs last year with that defense and the drought would be over. Where the hell was the continuity then? Who has a top 5 unit on either side of the ball in the NFL and throws that out the window? Who has a defense that is better than any other defense in the NFL at rushing the passer and decides that maybe we should go in a different direction on defense. Our defense hadn't peaked yet and we were still one of the best. Where was the continuity then? I like Rex but it has never been more clear that the game has passed him and the Ryan defense by. Get rid of him and go back to the 4-3 and let Lawson, Dareus, Williams and Hughes rush the passer.

I agree and I like the idea at the end- alot.

[plenzmd1]

so , trying to bring this back around LOL. The argument i keep hearing to keep Rex (except for Alpha, who makes several good points) is always the all encompassing "keep him for continuity..good teams always have continuity"...

 

my contention is that the teams that have continuity have it because the coaches won early...so i am trying to find example where that may not be the case. Pete Carrol two years at 7-9 was a great example.

 

I can think of a ton of places where the converse is true..keeping a coach for "continuity" sake that just gets fired later ...

Edited December 12, 2016 by plenzmd1

[genosmith]

The Jim Schwartz defense was the best unit, offensive or defensive, we have had during the entire drought. It think it is highly likely we would have made the playoffs last year with that defense and the drought would be over. Where the hell was the continuity then? Who has a top 5 unit on either side of the ball in the NFL and throws that out the window? Who has a defense that is better than any other defense in the NFL at rushing the passer and decides that maybe we should go in a different direction on defense. Our defense hadn't peaked yet and we were still, one of the best. Where was the continuity then? I like Rex but it has never been more clear that the game has passed him and the Ryan defense by. Get rid of him, and go back to the 4-3, and let Lawson, Dareus, Williams and Hughes rush the passer.

Hadn't peaked yet?????? Based off 4-3 where 2 of the 4 over 30. One got injured next year, and next one is completely washed up. Your best safety has been injured past two seasons and will probably retire. Your second CB was very old. And you had to get rid of Bradham anyways (same even if Mario wasn't washed up) because of cap purposes. Oh, and third d-linemen is a pothead which caused him to miss most of season. So your right, if would have kept Schwartz you probably would have won superbowl these past two years with Kyle Orton. Oh forgot, your starting Quarterback retired.

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

Hadn't peaked yet?????? Based off 4-3 where 2 of the 4 over 30. One got injured next year, and next one is completely washed up. Your best safety has been injured past two seasons and will probably retire. Your second CB was very old. And you had to get rid of Bradham anyways (same even if Mario wasn't washed up) because of cap purposes. Oh, and third d-linemen is a pothead which caused him to miss most of season. So your right, if would have kept Schwartz you probably would have won superbowl these past two years with Kyle Orton. Oh forgot, your starting Quarterback retired.

I think that unit's best season would have been last year, but go ahead, flip out about it.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Probably Marvin Lewis and the Bengals.

 

Year Record

2003 8-8

2004 8-8

2005 11-5

2006 8-8

2007 7-9

2008 4-11-1

2009 10-6

2010 4-12

2011 9-7

2012 10-6

2013 11-5

2014 10-5-1

2015 12-4

2016 5-7-1