YOOOOOO Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 The Pirates finally let Jason Kendall go? 248108[/snapback] Yea he's on the A's now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crows57 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 why would they re-structure Shelton at all and create dead cap problems until they are sure he is teh long term answer to play on the OL. I have big doubts it will be at LT. 248107[/snapback] I agree. It's not like the Bills need to create cap space at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Lazy. Fat. Yay. Lets hope that the guy writing this scouting report is Mike Florio Or, that Shelton was just not feeling it on a losing team, ala Corey Dillon. 248125[/snapback] Of course you should read Jennings as well Flaws Not in great condition. Has trouble with speed rushers, who get the edge on him at times. Doesn't have the footwork of an outstanding left tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobblehead Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Of course you should read Jennings as well 248134[/snapback] Good point. I see Henry and Shelton as pretty much the same person with the same situation, they just play different positions. The good thing is that Shelton will not have his version of a Willis McGahee in front of him here in Buffalo, as you can never have too many good OL on your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 how do you know he isn't generating much interest? 248103[/snapback] You been following things? He's generated almost no interest, mostly because although he's a tough runner, he's dumb as a box of rocks. I never saw so many plays over the last 3 years where Bledsoe would turn to hand the ball off and Henry would be running the other direction. Sure, it's only 4-5 times a season, but that's a lot. And forget about the run-blocking. I like TH, but if I was trading for him, I wouldn't give up much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 You been following things? He's generated almost no interest, mostly because although he's a tough runner, he's dumb as a box of rocks. I never saw so many plays over the last 3 years where Bledsoe would turn to hand the ball off and Henry would be running the other direction. Sure, it's only 4-5 times a season, but that's a lot. And forget about the run-blocking. I like TH, but if I was trading for him, I wouldn't give up much. 248143[/snapback] i don't know how your aware of the level of interest he is generating, unless you have a bug in TD's office........ there have been reports that up to 5 teams have approached the bills about henry.......that sounds like interest to me........ as well, with rudi and alexander getting tagged, and edge expected to as well, henry is the top back on the market........this will obviously help generate more interest in him....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 The Pirates finally let Jason Kendall go? 248108[/snapback] Eh - whoops! I'm an A's fan (he's on the A's now), just getting excited for the baseball season I suppose... SEE: Pete Kendall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Of course you should read Jennings as well 248134[/snapback] That's probably the report on most big O-linemen, I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsGuyInMalta Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Very nice, getting Shelton in here is a good way to help solidify the O-Line. Lets remember that this kid has ALL the physical tools to perform well in the NFL, he just needs a good coach. And no disrespect to the Cards fans, but "good coaching" and "Arizona Cards" havent gone together in 50 years. I think he's going to make a fine addition to the Bills. Now lets go out and get a FA guard to play at LG and I'll be fine and dandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 That's probably the report on most big O-linemen, I imagine. 248169[/snapback] No take a look at others: http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/teams/player_bio.asp...yan&hubName=PHI http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/teams/player_bio.asp...mas&hubName=PHI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I'm sure the Bills wouldn't acquire any OL without JMac's approval. If he thinks LJS is worth getting, I have NO problem with it. It beats getting a 2nd rounder for Henry and using it on an OL rookie who likely won't be up-to-speed for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well said JA. The bottom line is that it is far easier (although less glamorous) to get a RB than a person who can play LT.If TD can pull this off without giving up a draft pick, this will be a stunning accomplishment. You hit the nail on the head. I have a RB named Willis, who I can back up for short stints with Shaud or even Joe Burns. And I'm staring at a draft with great backs into the 4th Round: Sproles, Jermell Lewis. I get Shelton for a cap hit wash, and the very few LT's in this draft would take time to develop. As an aside, there are more good Guards in this draft into Round 4 as well. I'd take one in RD#2 or 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTW_BillsFan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 If the Bills do a simple restructure of Shelton's $3 million salary, the trade basically is cap neutral because both players are in the top 51Henry cap number: $1.35 million ($1.25 million salary + $100,000 proration) Shelton's cap number: $3 million each of the next 4 yrs Shelton's minumum salary for his NFL experiece is $665,000 Convert $2.335 million ($3 million - $665,000) to signing bonus. It gets prorated over 4 yrs at $583,375/yr. Shelton's 2005 cap number is now $665,000 + $583,375 = $1,248,750 Cap savings from Henry: $1.25 million Cap hit for Shelton: $1,248,750 Bills save $1,250 on cap 248008[/snapback] Clump (or plate)? : ), I'm not sure we would really want to 'backload' LJ's contract any more than what it already is. 3M/yr for a LT is pretty good, plus we take a little hit this year, but makes him more attractive for the next 3 after that. Wouldn't his cap number go up to ~3.75M each yr w/ this restructure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alg Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 The real question is this: How much more can the Bills REALLY get for Henry? 248058[/snapback] No its not. That's where I seem to disagree with the rest of you. Putting Shelton at LT is a big step backwards. Spin it anyway you want, but Denny Green is nobody's fool. Servicable LTs with low salaries are not floating around on the waiver wire, or being traded for 2nd or 3rd round picks. Not even in this day of salary cap purges. This is not about Travis, its about the regressing of the OL. I don't care if it is supposedly our best deal. That thought should have all of you just as concerned as I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTW_BillsFan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 No its not. That's where I seem to disagree with the rest of you. Putting Shelton at LT is a big step backwards. Spin it anyway you want, but Denny Green is nobody's fool. Servicable LTs with low salaries are not floating around on the waiver wire, or being traded for 2nd or 3rd round picks. Not even in this day of salary cap purges. This is not about Travis, its about the regressing of the OL. I don't care if it is supposedly our best deal. That thought should have all of you just as concerned as I am. 248312[/snapback] I really don't know if LJ is better than/as good as JJ. BUT I do think that LJ is at least a serviceable LT. LJ started 12 games last year, with DGreen hating him. IF DG had the chance LJ would have sat the bench, but obviously LJ is better than Leonard Davis or Davis would have been starting at LT. I would be more scared getting LD then LJ. Also, if this is true, why are we letting JJ go? I don't think that TD would let JJ go without at least a plan to replace JJ w/ someone comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I think the really interesting thing about this is that none of us have any idea what will happen to our line if/when Shelton arrives. Based on MM/TD's comments earlier (other big changes should be coming to the offense), who knows? There are a number of possibilities. - Shelton could come in to play LG - Shelton could come in to replace JJ at LT - Shelton could come in to play RT, with MW moved to LT to replace JJ I highly doubt Shelton would be brought in to play LG, not at his salary. That would mean we would have a whole lotta coin tied up at RT and LG, and we'd still need a LT. If Shelton comes, I think that pretty much means JJ is gone. I just wonder what will happen with MW's huge contract. Makes me a little nervous. As injury-prone as JJ seems to be, at least we know we'd have a pretty decent LT. Not really sure what we'd be getting with Shelton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I really don't know if LJ is better than/as good as JJ. BUT I do think that LJ is at least a serviceable LT. LJ started 12 games last year, with DGreen hating him. IF DG had the chance LJ would have sat the bench, but obviously LJ is better than Leonard Davis or Davis would have been starting at LT. I would be more scared getting LD then LJ. Also, if this is true, why are we letting JJ go? I don't think that TD would let JJ go without at least a plan to replace JJ w/ someone comparable. 248337[/snapback] Davis did start at LT. Shelton was the RT last year, even though DG hated him and wanted him gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTW_BillsFan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Davis did start at LT. Shelton was the RT last year, even though DG hated him and wanted him gone. 248356[/snapback] Oh, ok. I must have misread some of the articles about LJ. I thought he was the LT, was demoted and then put back to LT because LD was cutting it there. Actually, Anthony Clement is listed on the depth chart at RT and LD at LT, with LJ the back up for RT, so I guess you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Oh, ok. I must have misread some of the articles about LJ. I thought he was the LT, was demoted and then put back to LT because LD was cutting it there. Actually, Anthony Clement is listed on the depth chart at RT and LD at LT, with LJ the back up for RT, so I guess you are right. 248364[/snapback] Clement was the RG most of the year. He was moved to RT when Shelton went down the last 2 games. The depth chart is Greens way of sticking it to Shelton even more. If you had ever seen the guy play, he is great at run blocking, and against power pass rushers. He stuggles with the speed guys, but a good chip from a running back or TE on the outside will slow them down enough for LJ to get hands on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alg Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 If you had ever seen the guy play, he is great at run blocking, and against power pass rushers. He stuggles with the speed guys, but a good chip from a running back or TE on the outside will slow them down enough for LJ to get hands on him. 248370[/snapback] Sounds like the very definition of a RT. As implied by someone else in this thread, MM and TD are cooking up some changes on offense. The only thing this could relate to is the OL as we already know our starting skill positions. All this talk about Shelton may be us shopping for a RT (too expensive at guard.) That sure would make me feel better - for some strange reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 For the life of me I cannot understand why people are excited about this trade possibility. Shelton is a career underachiever who will replace Jennings? Aren't we always complaining about line play and the need to upgrade? This is a step backwards folks... TH is a proven and successful player. Shelton? How often do you all see a reasonably priced LT get cut or traded on the cheap? There can be no doubt that our line, if he is earmarked for LT, will take a big step in the wrong direction. The only hope I have if this trade goes thru is if the brain trust have determined that MW is ready for LT, and Shelton plays RT. 248036[/snapback] - Shelton's performance is getting a bad rap here....they guy has been a starter for them for a while. He is a dominating run blocker and he is pretty good in pass protection. You put a quality LG next to him and a good OL coach (which we have) and this guy could end up being very good for us. - The best we were going to get for Travis Henry was a 3rd round pick....whith that we MIGHT get a offensive linemen that would be a player for us in a couple of years.....we have the chance to get a starter NOW. - His price tag is right...it allows us to address LG in a big way..... It is a good trade....and it sends Henry out of the division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I agree. It's not like the Bills need to create cap space at this time. 248133[/snapback] Actually the Bills do need cap space at this time. TD did a very good job getting us out of cap hell quickly with some draconian but necssary cut his first year (unfortunately coupled with some dumb extensions of giving raises to, then cutting, abnd then needing Henry Jones and Holocek through bad assessment of Raion Hill and bad luck with Cowart), through negotiating some great deals with Pro Bowlers Spikes and Adams, taking advatage of the financial miscues of Henry, and recognizing that the draft is at best a tool and not the centerpiece of building a winner as shown by his nifty trading of future 1st round picks for immediate needs (the payoff of Bledsoe at the gate after a 3-13 season and getting Losman when he needed training anyway and spending a future draft pick in a draft weak at QB). However, his work has been good for dealing with the cap debacle created by Butler going for it all (probably the correct thing for him to do at the time, but he did it badly mishandling the initial Flutie and RJ contracts) and we are roughly 15th in the league in cap dollars with the Titans already starting the charge of announcing some very good players will be cap casualties. The NFL is a league which apes success and for now the Pats have shown the way to build a TEAM by loading up on cap casualties who were key to the 2001 SB and FA choices like Rodney Harrison who have set the tone for this team on the field. The draft has been important to them, but it was 6th round picks like Brady rather than 1st round picks like Seymour who sat out the end of his season who were their big draft acqusitions. Our cap situation is tough becuase the cut of Bledsoe likely made it worse. He may go down in history of having his accelerated bonuss when traded or cut having diminished two teams. His trade to the Bills probably played a critical role in the Pats missing the playoffs completely in 2002 as the accelerated Bledsoe cap hit made it impossible for them to shop the cap casualty market with any aggrssion and the cut was bookended by tow SB wins. The deadspace from the Bill cu of Bledsoe does leave us with $2.2 million more cap room than if we would have honored his contract, but that limits us to this amount to sign 1 and probably two QBs as Matthews has said 2004 was probably his last year as a player. We are going to likely have to see the Bledsoe cut reduce our cap room if we sign a QB with some achievement or instead will have to go the Batch/MaMachon/Kordelia route for our #2 unless we get more cap room. Even this may not be enough if we pay MW what we agreed to pay him (he needs to be restrutured regardless of whether you count his cap hit as $6.3 million (roughly Bills' Daily) or $9.3 million (Clumpy's Billszone site) he has not produced at the level of a tiop 10 OL player (average $6 million cap hit) or if you sign JJ at the going rate (a salary of at least $5 million for pedestrian LT talent. The Bills need all the cap room we can get. d ag is wrong in the post you cited that restructing Shelton gives us long-term cap issues. A simple restructuring which converts one year of his base salary minus the NFL minimum for a 6 year player would give him an immediate check for $2.6 ish million and give us a prorate increas of $500K for four years. Even if he were so bad you cut him after this season deadspace is always bad but $2 million is less than half the deadspace we are absorbing due to the Bledsoe cut and if you wait until 6/1 2006 you can make it a negligible 500K in deadspace and manage the $1.5 million deadspace in 2006. Signing an extending Shelton is quite doable as his cap hit can easily be reduced to the same level Henry counts against the 2005 cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 No its not. That's where I seem to disagree with the rest of you. Putting Shelton at LT is a big step backwards. Spin it anyway you want, but Denny Green is nobody's fool. Servicable LTs with low salaries are not floating around on the waiver wire, or being traded for 2nd or 3rd round picks. Not even in this day of salary cap purges. This is not about Travis, its about the regressing of the OL. I don't care if it is supposedly our best deal. That thought should have all of you just as concerned as I am. 248312[/snapback] Well is it a backwards step if he is slightly worse then Jennings but due to his salary we know have the ability to get a good LG.... It is addition by subtraction my fellow bills brethren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Clement was the RG most of the year. He was moved to RT when Shelton went down the last 2 games. The depth chart is Greens way of sticking it to Shelton even more. If you had ever seen the guy play, he is great at run blocking, and against power pass rushers. He stuggles with the speed guys, but a good chip from a running back or TE on the outside will slow them down enough for LJ to get hands on him. And don't worry. With JP's mobility, he'll never be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 And don't worry. With JP's mobility, he'll never be sacked. 248463[/snapback] I have read that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 And lost in all of this is the look on TH's face as you can read his mind: "Arizona? You're sending me to ARI-FREAKING-ZONA?!?!? Well...at least I'll be the starter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well, we can safely say bye bye to Jonas. I am all for getting Buckhalter for backup RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Clement was the RG most of the year. He was moved to RT when Shelton went down the last 2 games. The depth chart is Greens way of sticking it to Shelton even more. If you had ever seen the guy play, he is great at run blocking, and against power pass rushers. He stuggles with the speed guys, but a good chip from a running back or TE on the outside will slow them down enough for LJ to get hands on him. 248370[/snapback] VA brings up a good point...... That is why the trade makes sense....most of the time Shelton will be able to hold his own.....and since his salary is VERY managable for a Left Tackle you can go ahead and bring in a quality TE who can help him out with the Jason Taylor types........ Of course....I expect to be seeing the bills run...A LOT..next year and that is Shelton's strong point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 And lost in all of this is the look on TH's face as you can read his mind: "Arizona? You're sending me to ARI-FREAKING-ZONA?!?!? Well...at least I'll be the starter." 248515[/snapback] You must have the advanced ouija board. My board's reading of Henry's mind: "Tell me again about the chickens and the rabbits in Arizona, George." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 You must have the advanced ouija board. My board's reading of Henry's mind: "Tell me again about the chickens and the rabbits in Arizona, George." 248533[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Seems like the Yin/Yang on Shelton runs like this: Yin- Very solid in run blocking, with superior skills at the point of attack Good in pass pro when his head's in the game Yang- Not a great run blocker in space Has lapses in pass pro when he loses interest Undisciplined in training and weight management The one thing that might arguably jump out is that his attitude difficulties seem to make him a Denny Green type of player- or at least the type Green has taken pride in rehabbing in the past. There's another way to look at it though, and that is that Green plays a deep threat offense that gains its running advantage off the strength of it's pass protection and passing effectiveness. Shelton sounds like a guy who would be far more effective in a play action offense like ours, a run first instead of pass first O. In fact, the funny thing is Green would probably be best suited with a LT who was superior in pass pro with less emphasis on run blocking skills- say someone like Jonas Jennings! For the Bills, adding a Tackle who can consistently control the left edge (something we haven't had in over a decade) should propel Mr. McGahee to Pro-Bowl starter after the '05 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 No its not. That's where I seem to disagree with the rest of you. Putting Shelton at LT is a big step backwards. Spin it anyway you want, but Denny Green is nobody's fool. Servicable LTs with low salaries are not floating around on the waiver wire, or being traded for 2nd or 3rd round picks. Not even in this day of salary cap purges. This is not about Travis, its about the regressing of the OL. I don't care if it is supposedly our best deal. That thought should have all of you just as concerned as I am. 248312[/snapback] agree, bu let's hope that TD signs JJ and plays Shelton at RT or LG. although I don't see him as a LT, he would definitely give Bills leverage to get favorable restructcure from MW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 For the life of me I cannot understand why people are excited about this trade possibility. Shelton is a career underachiever who will replace Jennings? Aren't we always complaining about line play and the need to upgrade? This is a step backwards folks... TH is a proven and successful player. Shelton? How often do you all see a reasonably priced LT get cut or traded on the cheap? There can be no doubt that our line, if he is earmarked for LT, will take a big step in the wrong direction. The only hope I have if this trade goes thru is if the brain trust have determined that MW is ready for LT, and Shelton plays RT. 248036[/snapback] Kenneth Davis was a career underachiever before coming to Buffalo. There are many examples of players performing better with a change of scenery. This guy is worth the chance for the money he's being paid and the price of the offer (if true). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well is it a backwards step if he is slightly worse then Jennings but due to his salary we know have the ability to get a good LG.... It is addition by subtraction my fellow bills brethren 248455[/snapback] John, you are totally correct! AKC pointed out out how Guards are becoming more important due to the wave of 300 lb plus monster DTs. If the Bills could land a top (CV) quality LG, and McNally can go to work on Shelton, the Bills could be very close to having a dominant OL! Good post Bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 John, you are totally correct! AKC pointed out out how Guards are becoming more important due to the wave of 300 lb plus monster DTs. If the Bills could land a top (CV) quality LG, and McNally can go to work on Shelton, the Bills could be very close to having a dominant OL! Good post Bro! 248769[/snapback] When looking for quality OGs this off-season it might be prudent to watch the movement from another NFL small market cold weather city ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 When looking for quality OGs this off-season it might be prudent to watch the movement from another NFL small market cold weather city ;-) 248801[/snapback] You think we can actually afford him? He's gonna garner alot of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 You think we can actually afford him? He's gonna garner alot of interest. 248803[/snapback] Wahle will surely get interest, but I happen to think they have two quality OGs and both are UFAs. The fact that they're over the cap by 3Mill or so might make it difficult for them to offer much to Rivera on the other side and he might end up going FA just to get a market rate for a good OG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I actually think there are as many as FIVE OG's that would be upgrades to the bills....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 I actually think there are as many as FIVE OG's that would be upgrades to the bills....... 248970[/snapback] 5? oh, there are plenty more then that........ wahle, rivera, mayberry, andruzzi, anderson, demulling, vincent, dixon, garza, and hamilton........... not to mention a good draft for guards that has a couple immediate starter caliber guys in it......... plenty of options -- TD has no excuse not to upgrade the LG spot......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKC Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 5? oh, there are plenty more then that........ wahle, rivera, mayberry, andruzzi, anderson, demulling, vincent, dixon, garza, and hamilton........... not to mention a good draft for guards that has a couple immediate starter caliber guys in it......... plenty of options -- TD has no excuse not to upgrade the LG spot......... 248981[/snapback] I can't see Hamilton as a fit in our system at all simply because of his dimunitive size and Garza, Mayberry and Anderson in '04 were seives in pass protection compared to the top OGs. DeMulling is a big contributor in the Indy offense because he's got such good technique in pass protection, IMO our real need though is for a power run blocker first- a guy along the lines of CVillarial. I think you get that with either of the Green Bay OGS and Andruzzi is tough to argue against: Dixon is the wild card- does he have the gas left in his tank to perform at the level he has for 11 seasons? He seems to be getting bigger every year and that will no doubt catch up with him. Question is will it be in '05? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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