Marrone or Whaley, Who Stays?

[1billsfan]

Dude, I'm not looking for a fight. I'm just stating some facts.you act as if I'm Marrone's advocate. I'm not. I just think that if one is to go, there are things weighing in his favor. Not saying it's right or smart.

 

I'm not looking for a fight either. I just can't imagine in what world Doug Marrone keeps his job after witnessing the most predictable and suffocating offense ever. I think Marrone is a poser head coach and doesn't have the guts for conducting a real NFL offense. You can not win if you are afraid to score touchdowns because there might be a turnover. This was and will always be his downfall. Runs up the middle and 3 yards passing plays is not an NFL offense, not by a million miles.

 

If you made a list of current NFL head coaches that Doug Marrone is better than you would have a list of three or four. That right there is a reason to move on. Why keep going with one of the worst when you can make a change and look for one of the best?

Edited December 26, 2014 by 1billsfan

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I mean, what do you expect other coaches to say in the media? Do you think there would be a single coach that would disrespect Marrone to the media or say anything that isn't positive? Is that what we're going by here? Chan Gailey was praised by Bill Cowher for crying out loud.

 

And why do I care about Hackett's dad exactly? What does his resume have to do with his son?

 

I think you're really grasping at straws with your defense of Marrone here. This is a results based business and Marrone has failed for 2 years now.

Not defending Marrone at all. Just stating some facts. He has support from others across the league. Whether that support is wise or not is neither here nor there.

[The Big Cat]

 

 

I mean, what do you expect other coaches to say in the media? Do you think there would be a single coach that would disrespect Marrone to the media or say anything that isn't positive? Is that what we're going by here? Chan Gailey was praised by Bill Cowher for crying out loud.

 

And why do I care about Hackett's dad exactly? What does his resume have to do with his son?

 

I think you're really grasping at straws with your defense of Marrone here. This is a results based business and Marrone has failed for 2 years now.

 

You asked the question under the pretense that no answer exists. An answer does exist and it's not the one you want to hear. Live with it.

[zonabb]

The only reason he got to that record was with the NFL's best defense which he had nothing to do with. You say he's well respected, well how do you know that? Who are these "a lot of backers"? Other teams blow smoke because they want you to keep your bad head coach. Bill Polian? He isn't "a lot of backers". Polian got many things wrong in his career. He was lucky to have both Kelly and Manning. You could argue that his having only one Superbowl win with both Kelly and Manning was a very bad mark on his record.

 

List the current head coaches that Doug Marrone is better than. Then list the NFL teams who would want Whaley's Bills defense.

 

We will find out very shortly how the Pegula's feel about the matter. My sense is that the feeling will be that Marrone is by far the biggest thing holding this team back. I think he's gone on Monday, a day after the Pats beat the Bills even using their backups for the entire second half.

 

I'm confused. So he has nothing to do with the Defense's success but he should be fired because he has everything to do with the Offense's ineptitude? Sounds like cherry-picking what you want to hold him accountable for and what you don't. So he has zero input on the defense? Doesn't get involved with it whatsoever? Drew names from a hat to hire a DC?

 

So much illogical, emotional reactions and ideas on the future of Brandon, Whaley, and Marrone. Everyone wants to highlight failures to justify removal while conventionality ignoring any success. There are some premises or ground rules that should be used in such conversations.

 

1. No one is perfect. Everyone here seems to be a CEO with an excellent track record, apparently with massive experience in professional sports.

2. Continuity matters. Ever work a job where there was turnover a few times in a few years in a key position. It sucks. Ideas and culture change and many times a good approach gets thrown out the window after a year when someone moves on or is fired. Does this team need to clean house every two years? It speaks to a continual blame on coaching. I think at this point, Whaley is a good GM and they should ride out another year with both. Honestly, ask yourself who would come here and are they an upgrade? Be serious about it. We wouldn't get a premier college coach or a premier retread NFL coach. So as much as people say "Get Malzhan or Briles or Sumlin" it ain't happening. OR Harbaugh. Nope. Without a QB and with 15 years of disaster, this isn't a great gig. You'll get another Marrone. So ride this one out for another year, see if you can find a serviceable QB and have at it.

3. You can't make a QB. It's the hardest position in professional sports. There is a limited supply of franchise ones. Blaming Whaley or Marrone for that fact is a shortsighted. The main problem is.... you have to try, meaning you have to roll the dice and gamble on a QB. This team has rolled and failed, rolled and failed in this 15 years of futility I would argue in many cases because they had to pick someone. And the years they did, the entire crop was garbage. Everyone would have went ape if they didn't draft a QB in 2013, a year full of garbage. Geno Smith sucks, Glennon sucks, Nassib and Barkley suck. If they would have gone and drafted one of these, same results. So instead of drafting garbage late, you roll the dice and try to get the best of the bunch, and honestly, if you've seen these other guys, they all really do suck. You become a victim of your own circumstances. In JP Losman's draft we didn't get a shot at Manning, Rivers or Roethsliberger. Again, victim of our own circumstances. You could argue they should have moved up, maybe they tried and couldn't, which seems likely. They moved up for Losman. Look at the rest of the QBs drafted and you'll see the argument that you can find one later is a laugher. In fact look at the QBs drafted every year. Pretty scary how much junk is out there. You might get lucky with a serviceable one but you don't get franchise ones in nearly all cases.

4. None of this fire and clean house worked under RCW. It was the culture here and it was a disaster. I'm hoping that everyone is back. I've even changed my mind on Hackett after reading some good analysis and all-22 stuff this week on the pathetic line. Honestly, you watch some of that and you realize why Orton went to his first read a lot; why they ran out of the gun way too much and couldn't play action; why so many screens, etc... The line was limiting factor on this offense.

[jr1]

They are both replaced by robots

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I'm not looking for a fight either. I just can't imagine in what world Doug Marrone keeps his job after witnessing the most predictable and suffocating offense ever. I think Marrone is a poser head coach and doesn't have the guts for conducting a real NFL offense. You can not win if you are afraid to score touchdowns because there might be a turnover. This was and will always be his downfall. Runs up the middle and 3 yards passing plays is not an NFL offense, not by a million miles.

 

If you made a list of current NFL head coaches that Doug Marrone is better than you would have a list of three or four. That right there is a reason to move on. Why keep going with one of the worst when you can make a change and look for one of the best?

I think the offense is terrible, but it is a fact that they don't have a qb, and I do think that perception wise, Whaley is on the hook for EJ, who appears almost universally regarded as a bust (not saying that's right, btw). I also think that if the Bills get to 9-7, it'll be tough to justify getting rid of him given that it'll be their first winning season in a decade (It's of course their first .500 season in a decade too.) But I also think Whaley has done a lot of good things, including rolling the dice with EJ and drafting Watkins. My guess is that Marrone stays, but who knows? We'll all know more in a week.

Edited December 26, 2014 by dave mcbride

[The Big Cat]

 

 

I'm confused. So he has nothing to do with the Defense's success but he should be fired because he has everything to do with the Offense's ineptitude? Sounds like cherry-picking what you want to hold him accountable for and what you don't. So he has zero input on the defense? Doesn't get involved with it whatsoever? Drew names from a hat to hire a DC?

 

So much illogical, emotional reactions and ideas on the future of Brandon, Whaley, and Marrone. Everyone wants to highlight failures to justify removal while conventionality ignoring any success. There are some premises or ground rules that should be used in such conversations.

 

1. No one is perfect. Everyone here seems to be a CEO with an excellent track record, apparently with massive experience in professional sports.

2. Continuity matters. Ever work a job where there was turnover a few times in a few years in a key position. It sucks. Ideas and culture change and many times a good approach gets thrown out the window after a year when someone moves on or is fired. Does this team need to clean house every two years? It speaks to a continual blame on coaching. I think at this point, Whaley is a good GM and they should ride out another year with both. Honestly, ask yourself who would come here and are they an upgrade? Be serious about it. We wouldn't get a premier college coach or a premier retread NFL coach. So as much as people say "Get Malzhan or Briles or Sumlin" it ain't happening. OR Harbaugh. Nope. Without a QB and with 15 years of disaster, this isn't a great gig. You'll get another Marrone. So ride this one out for another year, see if you can find a serviceable QB and have at it.

3. You can't make a QB. It's the hardest position in professional sports. There is a limited supply of franchise ones. Blaming Whaley or Marrone for that fact is a shortsighted. The main problem is.... you have to try, meaning you have to roll the dice and gamble on a QB. This team has rolled and failed, rolled and failed in this 15 years of futility I would argue in many cases because they had to pick someone. And the years they did, the entire crop was garbage. Everyone would have went ape if they didn't draft a QB in 2013, a year full of garbage. Geno Smith sucks, Glennon sucks, Nassib and Barkley suck. If they would have gone and drafted one of these, same results. So instead of drafting garbage late, you roll the dice and try to get the best of the bunch, and honestly, if you've seen these other guys, they all really do suck. You become a victim of your own circumstances. In JP Losman's draft we didn't get a shot at Manning, Rivers or Roethsliberger. Again, victim of our own circumstances. You could argue they should have moved up, maybe they tried and couldn't, which seems likely. They moved up for Losman. Look at the rest of the QBs drafted and you'll see the argument that you can find one later is a laugher. In fact look at the QBs drafted every year. Pretty scary how much junk is out there. You might get lucky with a serviceable one but you don't get franchise ones in nearly all cases.

4. None of this fire and clean house worked under RCW. It was the culture here and it was a disaster. I'm hoping that everyone is back. I've even changed my mind on Hackett after reading some good analysis and all-22 stuff this week on the pathetic line. Honestly, you watch some of that and you realize why Orton went to his first read a lot; why they ran out of the gun way too much and couldn't play action; why so many screens, etc... The line was limiting factor on this offense.

 

If there's one thing to take away from the vast majority of content on this site, it's relief that most posters aren't running...well, anything:

[rumblefish]

both stay or both go, changes in lower coaching positions will happen no matter what happens, HC & GM is a set breaking the set up serves noting, clean house or tweak lower staff game plan/players

[Bangarang]

You asked the question under the pretense that no answer exists. An answer does exist and it's not the one you want to hear. Live with it.

 

I asked the question because I'm not in the inner circles of coaching staffs around the league so I couldn't tell you one way or another. I was curious behind the logic of the statement.

 

If the entire reasoning is based on comments made to the media from other coaches then it's not something I buy into. Live with it.

[CodeMonkey]

Both stay, at least one more season. Pegula is not a knee jerk kind of a guy. He won't make a move until his consultant evaluates the organization enough to make an intelligent recommendation, and unless he is pretty sure he can hire someone who would be an improvement.

 

Pegula is a successful businessman and will not make a move just to appease some brain damaged fans who want blood without thinking things through.

Edited December 26, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[1billsfan]

I'm confused. So he has nothing to do with the Defense's success but he should be fired because he has everything to do with the Offense's ineptitude? Sounds like cherry-picking what you want to hold him accountable for and what you don't. So he has zero input on the defense? Doesn't get involved with it whatsoever? Drew names from a hat to hire a DC?

 

So much illogical, emotional reactions and ideas on the future of Brandon, Whaley, and Marrone. Everyone wants to highlight failures to justify removal while conventionality ignoring any success. There are some premises or ground rules that should be used in such conversations.

 

1. No one is perfect. Everyone here seems to be a CEO with an excellent track record, apparently with massive experience in professional sports.

2. Continuity matters. Ever work a job where there was turnover a few times in a few years in a key position. It sucks. Ideas and culture change and many times a good approach gets thrown out the window after a year when someone moves on or is fired. Does this team need to clean house every two years? It speaks to a continual blame on coaching. I think at this point, Whaley is a good GM and they should ride out another year with both. Honestly, ask yourself who would come here and are they an upgrade? Be serious about it. We wouldn't get a premier college coach or a premier retread NFL coach. So as much as people say "Get Malzhan or Briles or Sumlin" it ain't happening. OR Harbaugh. Nope. Without a QB and with 15 years of disaster, this isn't a great gig. You'll get another Marrone. So ride this one out for another year, see if you can find a serviceable QB and have at it.

3. You can't make a QB. It's the hardest position in professional sports. There is a limited supply of franchise ones. Blaming Whaley or Marrone for that fact is a shortsighted. The main problem is.... you have to try, meaning you have to roll the dice and gamble on a QB. This team has rolled and failed, rolled and failed in this 15 years of futility I would argue in many cases because they had to pick someone. And the years they did, the entire crop was garbage. Everyone would have went ape if they didn't draft a QB in 2013, a year full of garbage. Geno Smith sucks, Glennon sucks, Nassib and Barkley suck. If they would have gone and drafted one of these, same results. So instead of drafting garbage late, you roll the dice and try to get the best of the bunch, and honestly, if you've seen these other guys, they all really do suck. You become a victim of your own circumstances. In JP Losman's draft we didn't get a shot at Manning, Rivers or Roethsliberger. Again, victim of our own circumstances. You could argue they should have moved up, maybe they tried and couldn't, which seems likely. They moved up for Losman. Look at the rest of the QBs drafted and you'll see the argument that you can find one later is a laugher. In fact look at the QBs drafted every year. Pretty scary how much junk is out there. You might get lucky with a serviceable one but you don't get franchise ones in nearly all cases.

4. None of this fire and clean house worked under RCW. It was the culture here and it was a disaster. I'm hoping that everyone is back. I've even changed my mind on Hackett after reading some good analysis and all-22 stuff this week on the pathetic line. Honestly, you watch some of that and you realize why Orton went to his first read a lot; why they ran out of the gun way too much and couldn't play action; why so many screens, etc... The line was limiting factor on this offense.

 

2. see Dick Jauron.

3. you definitely can't make (help out?) a QB by runs up the middle and 3 yard passes 90% of the time...see Orton and Manuel.

4. I have eyes, Hackett sucks...see #3

[dave mcbride]

 

 

I asked the question because I'm not in the inner circles of coaching staffs around the league so I couldn't tell you one way or another. I was curious behind the logic of the statement.

 

If the entire reasoning is based on comments made to the media from other coaches then it's not something I buy into. Live with it.

It's based on more than that. There are articles from 2013 indicating that Marrone was widely admired, and it wasn't just show or puffery. Whether that admiration was justified or not isn't the issue, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[4merper4mer]

 

 

That's a ridiculous question. Whaley gave us a top 3 defense in the NFL. What has Marrone given us again?

 

A top 3 and out offense in the NFL.

[The Big Cat]

 

 

I asked the question because I'm not in the inner circles of coaching staffs around the league so I couldn't tell you one way or another. I was curious behind the logic of the statement.

 

If the entire reasoning is based on comments made to the media from other coaches then it's not something I buy into. Live with it.

 

You've come to the wrong place if you're expecting information beyond what's available to the masses.

 

I expect you dismiss all the negative Marrone media coverage out of hand too.

 

Also it's kinda clear that you're selectively forgetful about all the stuff you don't want to hear.

Edited December 26, 2014 by The Big Cat

[CardinalScotts]

both...we not going to have a losing season to build off of, On offense. One tackle is 23 the other is 22 both are pretty good and only going to get better. One starting wide out is 21 the other is 22 same deal already talented and no qb to work with. On defense you have a young fantastic defense that will be very good for awhile. Compare us to other teams and quit your crying -

 

ya lets fire the coach thats all we know and THAT has worked beautifully for 15 years.

[CodeMonkey]

A top 3 and out offense in the NFL.

So Whaley gets credit for the defense but skates on the offense?

[Bangarang]

You've come to the wrong place if you're expecting information beyond what's available to the masses.

 

I expect you dismiss all the negative Marrone media coverage out of hand too.

 

Also it's kinda clear that you're selectively forgetful about all the stuff you don't want to hear.

 

My opinions on players or coaches aren't decided by the media.

 

What am I selectively forgetful about exactly? Because I take statements made to the media with a grain of salt it means I just ignore things I don't want to hear?

[mannc]

 

 

If there's one thing to take away from the vast majority of content on this site, it's relief that most posters aren't running...well, anything:

Right. Imagine how unsuccessful this franchise would have been if that were the case. Why, they probably wouldn't even have made the playoffs the last decade and a half and they would not have a franchise QB either, because it's impossible to find one anyway. Yup, thank god for the One Bills Drive Gang!

[jahnyc]

If Marrone and Whaley do not get along (or cannot get along) none of the thoughts expressed here about the performance of Whaley and Marrone matter. One or both may need to go if the relationship is as bad as described by Bucky, assuming the relationship cannot be repaired.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

My opinions on players or coaches aren't decided by the media.

 

What am I selectively forgetful about exactly? Because I take statements made to the media with a grain of salt it means I just ignore things I don't want to hear?

I accept taking statements to the media with a grain of salt. What you shouldn't take with a grain of salt is the hiring of Pettine, who came with a strong rec from Marrone. Presumably, his opinion was treated with respect. also, fwiw, Cleveland was very interested in Marrone in 2013, if reports are to be believed, and settled with Chudzinski. Mike Lombardi, who remains tight with Belichick, liked him a lot. Again, this is not advocacy for Marrone. I'm just trying to say that he's regarded as "one of us." That doesn't mean a hill of beans if the team he's coaching does poorly, but the team has in fact improved under his watch.