C.Biscuit97 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) I am certainly no QB evaluation expert. But I believe Carr managed to start all 15 games so far this season, got two quality wins plus beat the Bills who defensively at least are also a quality team, seemed to get better as the season went on, and was a 2nd round pick (meaning the Raiders got better value). Based on what I have seen so far, I would trade Manuel for Carr in a heartbeat. Carr didn't have his season and first camp disrupedt by injuries like EJ. His longest string of consecutive games is 4. How can any QB get into a groove like that? And I think Manuel's upside is higher than Carr's. His basement is lower too. Edited December 22, 2014 by C.Biscuit97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Isn't that what the 14 games he has started suggest? So in your eyes, one last game on the road vs New England is going to answer all the questions? Questions, IMO that have already been answered, if they weren't answered, why is Orton playing at all? Did you see Carr yesterday? What, 15 games into his 1st year, he looked the part, he appears to have "IT", you can't say that about EJ. He has yet to look like Carr, I don't think he will ever look like Carr. Oh by the way Carr's weapons are way inferior to what EJ has had. I am not at all optimistic about EJ but this is a nothing game and Orton is a nothing qb so we might see if EJ has learned anything. Jim Plunkett was a mess in New England and never became a hall of fame qb until he sat on the bench in Oakland for a year. Nothing to lose in seeing if EJ learned anything. My assessment of him so far is pretty much the same as yours and if we were still in the hunt I'd want Orton to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Carr didn't have his season and first camp disrupedt by injuries like EJ. His longest string of consecutive games is 4. How can any QB get into a groove like that? And I think Manuel's upside is higher than Carr's. His basement is lower too. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Why? Bigger, faster, 4-0 in bowl games. Carr seems like a Dalton type at best. He has never wowed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Bigger, faster, 4-0 in bowl games. Carr seems like a Dalton type at best. He has never wowed me. So purely a physical specimen thing? Carr was pretty good in college too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 So purely a physical specimen thing? Carr was pretty good in college too. And EJ seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Carr didn't play in a power conference and in his bowl game against USC, he got smoked (plus, I bet on his team so maybe I'm bitter still). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And EJ seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Carr didn't play in a power conference and in his bowl game against USC, he got smoked (plus, I bet on his team so maybe I'm bitter still). EJ also got the benefit of playing with better players, even in a stronger conference. FSU has been pretty good as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I'd also take Carr over EJ in a second. Carr has i think 20 TDs and 11 INTs... fewest INTs for a rookie QB with over 500 attempts in NFL history,,,on a crap team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I am certainly no QB evaluation expert. But I believe Carr managed to start all 15 games so far this season, got two quality wins plus beat the Bills who defensively at least are also a quality team, seemed to get better as the season went on, and was a 2nd round pick (meaning the Raiders got better value). Based on what I have seen so far, I would trade Manuel for Carr in a heartbeat. I would trade EJ for A CAR, an '86 Yugo even.....though we would be screwing the Yugo-owner pretty royally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) And EJ seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Carr didn't play in a power conference and in his bowl game against USC, he got smoked (plus, I bet on his team so maybe I'm bitter still). I don't know enough about Carr to say, but is there a reason you think he does not have a good head on his shoulders? As to some other comments, the "read option" big strong running QB types that had done well in college are starting to fall out of favor because that does not seem to translate well to the NFL in most cases. In my extremely non-professional opinion, we may well have seen Manuel's NFL ceiling, or close to it. Edited December 22, 2014 by CodeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 EJ hasn't even played a full season of games and everybody is already writing him off. He was considered somewhat of a project coming out of college.... 2-3 years of so of seasoning would be required before he could step in and start. He's still a very good prospect, just needs time and we all need to be patient with him. Aaron Rodgers didn't start a game his first 3 years in the league. I'm not saying he's Aaron Rodgers, but there is a learning curve and EJ is a smart kid I think he'll get there eventually. In the meantime Buffalo's D is playoff caliber, so it's up the front office to find a veteran QB who can simply play average enough to not lose games while EJ continues to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I don't know enough about Carr to say, but is there a reason you think he does not have a good head on his shoulders? As to some other comments, the "read option" big strong running QB types that had done well in college are starting to fall out of favor because that does not seem to translate well to the NFL in most cases. In my extremely non-professional opinion, we may well have seen Manuel's NFL ceiling, or close to it. I was talking about EJ. It was nothing against Carr. And I don't know of a rookie qb who would like good with Hackett as both an OC and Qb coach. I think EJ will get another chance to start in this league. I'd also take Carr over EJ in a second. Carr has i think 20 TDs and 11 INTs... fewest INTs for a rookie QB with over 500 attempts in NFL history,,,on a crap team. I didn't see this post after the Raiders lost like 50-0 a couple of weeks ago to the Rams. EJ also got the benefit of playing with better players, even in a stronger conference. FSU has been pretty good as a whole. One of Carr's college Wrs was a 2nd rounder who is GB's 3rd wr, Devonta Adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 And I think Manuel's upside is higher than Carr's. His basement is lower too. Can someone explain how upside (ceiling) is any different than chroise? Besides idiots like Kiper and McShay using it as some sort of bogus analytic, what the hell does it mean and please give some actual examples where upside equates to some value metric. Take the QB class of '83, did Todd Blackledge have more upside or a higher ceiling than anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Can someone explain how upside (ceiling) is any different than chroise? Besides idiots like Kiper and McShay using it as some sort of bogus analytic, what the hell does it mean and please give some actual examples where upside equates to some value metric. Take the QB class of '83, did Todd Blackledge have more upside or a higher ceiling than anyone else? Haha. I just think (as everyone has since he was in high school) that EJ has all the skills that elite Qbs have. He also has a good head on his shoulders. He's a 5 star recruit while Carr is like a 3. Now whether he ever gets there is another question. But this coaching staff did him no favirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 One of Carr's college Wrs was a 2nd rounder who is GB's 3rd wr, Devonta Adams. Oh, he had help. But how many FSU players from EJ's era are in the NFL right now? Was KB on his team? He's a OROY candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Haha. I just think (as everyone has since he was in high school) that EJ has all the skills that elite Qbs have. He also has a good head on his shoulders. He's a 5 star recruit while Carr is like a 3. Now whether he ever gets there is another question. But this coaching staff did him no favirs. I think people just see his physical attributes and never look at his actual play. He has never been that guy that shines brighter as the competition gets better. Yeah yeah, 4-0 in bowls...but meaningless bowls. No NCs, maybe one ACC title (i didn't look it up) in what was a very down ACC at the time. when you aren't competing for the NC, beating florida is your end of year bowl....and they lit him up his senior year. Take away the last TD drive in that game...and that was a crap show of epic proportion. Look at how a crappy UF team made an interesting game this year against Winston..... In college EJ was good (fair even) but never great....never. Again, what is his signature win/moment...hell he should have 10-15 of them. The competition is even better at this level....like huge better, so anyone (like a moronic front office) who expected him to make this jump and be proficient isn't really using common sense....again all IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimp Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Haha. I just think (as everyone has since he was in high school) that EJ has all the skills that elite Qbs have. He also has a good head on his shoulders. He's a 5 star recruit while Carr is like a 3. Now whether he ever gets there is another question. But this coaching staff did him no favirs. If you take the top rating for EJ, he was a 4 by one source and a 5 by another, shouldn't you do the same for Carr? Car was a 3 by one source and a 4 by another. If you're right you don't have to pick and choose how you present it. Yeah EJ was a higher rated recruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I think people just see his physical attributes and never look at his actual play. He has never been that guy that shines brighter as the competition gets better. Yeah yeah, 4-0 in bowls...but meaningless bowls. No NCs, maybe one ACC title (i didn't look it up) in what was a very down ACC at the time. when you aren't competing for the NC, beating florida is your end of year bowl....and they lit him up his senior year. Take away the last TD drive in that game...and that was a crap show of epic proportion. Look at how a crappy UF team made an interesting game this year against Winston..... In college EJ was good (fair even) but never great....never. Again, what is his signature win/moment...hell he should have 10-15 of them. The competition is even better at this level....like huge better, so anyone (like a moronic front office) who expected him to make this jump and be proficient isn't really using common sense....again all IMO. EJ Manuel had better career college numbers than Aaron Rodgers. 66.9% vs 63.8% completion percentage 150.4 vs 150.2 QB rating 8.6 vs 8.2 yards per attempt Once EJ figures out NFL defenses, he'll be a fine starter. Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years learning the NFL game before even started a single game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Bigger, faster, 4-0 in bowl games. Carr seems like a Dalton type at best. He has never wowed me. Carr has a better arm and better throwing motion than Dalton. They aren't really that much alike at all. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/derek-carr?id=2543499 Edited December 22, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 EJ Manuel had better career college numbers than Aaron Rodgers. 66.9% vs 63.8% completion percentage 150.4 vs 150.2 QB rating 8.6 vs 8.2 yards per attempt Once EJ figures out NFL defenses, he'll be a fine starter. Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years learning the NFL game before even started a single game. Well, that's a little presumptuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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