Doc Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 It will come out along with the report on the tens of thousands of innocent civilians dead, along with 5k US soldiers (not to mention the maimed and post-service suicides) related to the invasion of Iraq - a sovereign nation that had, at the time, done nothing to us and had nothing to do with 9/11. That will report will also include the juicy details around ISIS, which is lovingly equipped thanks to America and staffed by former Iraqi soldiers disenfranchised after said invasion. Maybe they'll bury the location of the WMDs in there too. Touche. But it still doesn't explain the outrage over torture while turning a blind eye to drone strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 If that makes you feel better as you willingly give up your right to privacy and due process because Cheney convinced you if you didn't, you'd die -- then that's all good I guess. Me? I like to think for myself. Agree or disagree on the tactics...fine. I do not understand the release of the report....and what has basically been trumpeting of its contents. How does this help anything? If our representatives are finding acts which are out of line with our ideals, then correct them. Feinstein is the one with authority to do so, not you or me. She and her colleagues can do so in private without telling our enemies....and they are our enemies......"here is some crap for you to use in your recruitment of people to kill our boys". We're all supposed to be on the same side and protection of our men and women at risk should be paramount. She is on her own side. And spare me the openness crap at least until she opens up the contents on what briefings were given to congress, and her legisltaion's ties to her husband profit margins. I don't necessarily agree with 100% of the anecdotes indicating this will help our enemies, but watching us take sides against each other is damn sure not going to hurt them and having a very senior senator very publicly paint us as the bad guys....obviously for political gain or revenge.....is not something I ever want to see supported. She's reprehensible. There were 1000 ways this could have been investigated and rectified without this public display of negativity. She eliminated 999 of those 1000 in favor of the one that would do the most harm to people who willingly put their lives on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 If that makes you feel better as you willingly give up your right to privacy and due process because Cheney convinced you if you didn't, you'd die -- then that's all good I guess. Me? I like to think for myself. LOL.....................What an incredible leap from me saying that Americans are using common sense instead of being scared. Kudos for getting all the assumed narratives in there though..................lol . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Agree or disagree on the tactics...fine. I do not understand the release of the report....and what has basically been trumpeting of its contents. How does this help anything? The politics of how the report came to be aren't of interest to me. I don't care how the report comes out, it should come out by hook or by crook. It's the only way to move past this shameful (and it is indeed shameful despite the cheerleading going on in this thread) chapter in American history. We sold our souls and some of the fundamental principles that were supposed to make America different from the rest of the world in order to feel safer. The fact that these methods didn't make us safer should be enlightening, instead folks are doubling down on stupid. I'll ask you, how does keeping a report (again, politics aside) about incidents which the world already knew happened secret help? It doesn't help anyone but those who don't want to be reminded about the dark deeds done on behalf of "safety". And it doesn't allow us to have the debate that's currently ongoing. I don't necessarily agree with 100% of the anecdotes indicating this will help our enemies, but watching us take sides against each other is damn sure not going to hurt them and having a very senior senator very publicly paint us as the bad guys.... We tortured and killed innocent people. That makes us the bad guys, not the report. Doubling down on secrecy about it only makes it worse. LOL.....................What an incredible leap from me saying that Americans are using common sense instead of being scared. Kudos for getting all the assumed narratives in there though..................lol . You're turning a blind eye to a betrayal of a core American principle -- two actually -- and using "common sense" as your justification. What, dare I ask, is the common sense in surrendering to our base instincts and scrapping our right to privacy and to due process? You're kidding yourself if you think this had any impact on keeping you safe. It had none. In fact, it put you in greater danger -- as well as this country. Edited December 16, 2014 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 You're the only one classifying Senators as "serious". Lots of people do. That's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 The politics of how the report came to be aren't of interest to me. I don't care how the report comes out, it should come out by hook or by crook. It's the only way to move past this shameful (and it is indeed shameful despite the cheerleading going on in this thread) chapter in American history. We sold our souls and some of the fundamental principles that were supposed to make America different from the rest of the world in order to feel safer. The fact that these methods didn't make us safer should be enlightening, instead folks are doubling down on stupid. I'll ask you, how does keeping a report (again, politics aside) about incidents which the world already knew happened secret help? It doesn't help anyone but those who don't want to be reminded about the dark deeds done on behalf of "safety". And it doesn't allow us to have the debate that's currently ongoing. Excluding political points scored or avenged by Feinstein, how did making the report public help fix any of the issues? The politics aren't of interest? News flash dude: Feinstein does not care about fixing any of this. She cares about politics, did this for politics and the report itself was generated in a poitical manner. It is not much different than saying reading the Atkins diet book report will help you fix your brake pads. That's not why the Atkins diet book was written. Do the politics of the UVA rape story matter? No, because even though it is entirely made up it still could have happened, right? No, not right. Why bother to get the accused's side when so much can be gained from just making up some crap? And this isn't right either. It harms both the accused and potential future victims. The accused's reputations are crushed while future victims are unfairly rendered susceptible to the boy who cried wolf suspicion. It immunizes us from the truth in several ways. First by telling only the parts of the story the accusors want told, then because the truth eventually finds its way to the surface by making us suspicious of future allegations, sometimes wrongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Lots of people do. That's the problem. Amen. Excluding political points scored or avenged by Feinstein, how did making the report public help fix any of the issues? Pretending it didn't happen doesn't fix anything. Having a public debate about the merits of torture certainly helps the issue by highlighting the completely ridiculous arguments for it (see Cheney's disgusting performance on Meet the Press last Sunday as example A of this) so that it can be properly shredded in public discourse. The politics aren't of interest? To me, no. To many, I'm sure the politics are very interesting. They're also clouding people's better judgments on what should be an apolitical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 You're turning a blind eye to a betrayal of a core American principle -- two actually -- and using "common sense" as your justification. What, dare I ask, is the common sense in surrendering to our base instincts and scrapping our right to privacy and to due process? You're kidding yourself if you think this had any impact on keeping you safe. It had none. In fact, it put you in greater danger -- as well as this country. Respectfully sir, you are moving the boundaries of my comment. I was talking about the reaction of Americans to the interrogation of terrorists report and now you want to start on privacy and due process. My strongest reaction is to the bolded. I say that you are completely wrong here . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Respectfully sir, you are moving the boundaries of my comment. Not my intent. Apologies. I was talking about the reaction of Americans to the interrogation of terrorists report and now you want to start on privacy and due process. The two are very related. Hell they're intertwined. Both constitutional protections were sacrificed willingly on the altar of "safety" by the American people because the fear mongers convinced us that it was in our best interest. The fact that people are still defending it, is mindblowing to me. But I guess the brainwashing worked. My strongest reaction is to the bolded. I say that you are completely wrong here . Tell me how torturing and murdering innocent people helped keep this country safe? Name one piece of actionable intelligence gained through the CIA torture program? There are NONE. If there were, CIA would be shouting it to the heavens right now as they're getting killed in the press. Convince me I'm wrong. Show me how this made us safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Pretending it didn't happen doesn't fix anything. Having a public debate about the merits of torture certainly helps the issue by highlighting the completely ridiculous arguments for it (see Cheney's disgusting performance on Meet the Press last Sunday as example A of this) so that it can be properly shredded in public discourse. To me, no. To many, I'm sure the politics are very interesting. They're also clouding people's better judgments on what should be an apolitical issue. I don't advocate pretending it didn't happen. In all likelihood, Feinstein is in fact "pretending" she didn't know about it though......don't be naive. I would advocate people with actual power doing their own job and doing something about it if a fully truthful investigation reveals wrongdoing. None of that needs to be public. And "get Cheney" as motivation for making it public seems vindictive and a big red hair ring if you are trying to solve real problems. "Public debates" about what went on, when the public has been made aware of about maybe 2% of the pertinent information, are ridiculous. Who knew about it and when, specific results about what intelligence it produced or failed to produce, actions taken based on that intelligence.....are all very pertinent information. I don't think all of that should be public because it could impair future operations or strategy. It renders "public debate" for policy change at best irrelevant and at worst extrememly dangerous. And while it is nice that you don't care about the politics, it is important to point out that the report was commissioned politically. It should be an apolitical issue....but it isn't. It's like saying you don't care about the recipes in a cookbook because you want to focus on the pictures of the vegetables. That's not why the book was written and not all of the critical vegetables are even shown. It was probably written by some vegan weirdo and left out lots of good recipes that use meat, but it is being sold as the only source for allowable cooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 I don't advocate pretending it didn't happen. In all likelihood, Feinstein is in fact "pretending" she didn't know about it though......don't be naive. Given that I knew about it, I'm pretty sure Feinstein is pretending. Or an idiot. Actually, she's an idiot either way. It's just indeterminate whether she's an idiot for pretending outrage now, or for not paying any attention when all this was reported years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Tell me how torturing and murdering innocent people helped keep this country safe? Name one piece of actionable intelligence gained through the CIA torture program? There are NONE. If there were, CIA would be shouting it to the heavens right now as they're getting killed in the press. Convince me I'm wrong. Show me how this made us safer. Well again sir, we look at things from different perspectives I don't believe that the CIA would be releasing intelligence, simply because the media is pumping up the torture report narrative. Who runs an important organization in that weak a manner?..................no one. What do they have to fear ? President Obama is very close to the CIA Director. And as to your request to prove the negative, well you now that's impossible. I could point to our decade of (relatively) safety here at home, but I know that can be debated every which way So, I will go on thinking that you are off base here, and you can go ahead and keep calling me "brain-washed"..................and everyone's happy . . Edited December 16, 2014 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Well again sir, we look at things from different perspectives I don't believe that the CIA would be releasing intelligence, simply because the media is pumping up the torture report narrative. Who runs an important organization in that weak a manner?..................no one. What do they have to fear ? President Obama is very close to the CIA Director. And as to your request to prove the negative, well you now that's impossible. I could point to our decade of (relatively) safety here at home, but I know that can be debated every which way So, I will go on thinking that you are off base here, and you can go ahead and keep calling me "brain-washed"..................and everyone's happy . . I'm not asking you to prove a negative, I'm asking you to show me where the program provided intel that kept us safe -- in any sense. If the program worked in the way you seem to think it did, there'd be oodles of evidence, not all of which would be locked away in classified files. The CIA does have a PR machine after all, and if it didn't, Cheney would certainly be crowing about his achievements. But he's not. He's instead falling back on bloodlust and revenge while invoking the images of 9/11 as means of justifying the decisions made by those in power at the time, and today. So, I'm willing to listen if you can show me (hell, I'll even take speculative, I don't need links, we can have a discussion) how this program saved lives. What's amazing is how much ink you can push on here lamenting about Emperor Obama and how actions like executive orders are shredding the constitution... ... But yet when the subject turns to a state run torture program which killed and imprisoned innocent civilians (run by both W and Obama btw) -- something which cuts against everything we're supposed to hold dear as Americans, it's "no big deal." And for the record, I'm not calling you brainwashed, it was a general statement. Your stance could be justified, but I'd like to hear it. At worse I think you're suffering from selective outrage based entirely in your political partisanship -- which isn't brainwashed. It's just not looking at the full picture. Which is why this debate needs to happen. If you don't believe that there'd be leaks about the successes of the program over the past decade and change (hell, they tried it with OSB and were proven to be liars) then I don't know what to tell you. I have a lot of respect for the men and women in the intelligence community and have spent time with a bunch of them from different parts of the alphabet. But **** gets out all the time. Especially when the issue is as important and divisive as this. Edited December 16, 2014 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Name one piece of actionable intelligence gained through the CIA torture program? No, they wouldn't. That's not how intelligence works. It never has been and it never will be. Intelligence entities can't trumpet successes for very obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 No, they wouldn't. That's not how intelligence works. It never has been and it never will be. Intelligence entities can't trumpet successes for very obvious reasons. Which effectively makes it proving a negative. Plus...the real world isn't 24. You rarely get "actionable intelligence." Most often, you just get another piece of the puzzle...but you don't know where it goes, because you don't have the surrounding pieces, so you put it back in the box and try to find another piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Which effectively makes it proving a negative. Which is why I said it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Which effectively makes it proving a negative. Plus...the real world isn't 24. You rarely get "actionable intelligence." Most often, you just get another piece of the puzzle...but you don't know where it goes, because you don't have the surrounding pieces, so you put it back in the box and try to find another piece. And even their own officers, during the program and before it, said this was the least effective means of getting ANY actionable intel. Sorry, this program did not provide anything of substance to the intelligence community. It did nothing to keep this country safer. It only made the country more dangerous. No, they wouldn't. That's not how intelligence works. It never has been and it never will be. Intelligence entities can't trumpet successes for very obvious reasons. Sure they can. And did. OSB was gotten because of this program... remember? Before they got caught in that lie of course. Hell, they even made a best picture nominee trying to trumpet their success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Tell me how torturing and murdering innocent people helped keep this country safe? Name one piece of actionable intelligence gained through the CIA torture program? There are NONE. If there were, CIA would be shouting it to the heavens right now as they're getting killed in the press. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-pushes-back-assertion-overstated-intelligence-detention-program/story?id=27486128 It is a case being made by CIA Director John Brennan, who, despite his continued misgivings about the enhanced interrogation techniques, argued that they provided valuable intelligence about al Qaeda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 And even their own officers, during the program and before it, said this was the least effective means of getting ANY actionable intel. Sorry, this program did not provide anything of substance to the intelligence community. It did nothing to keep this country safer. It only made the country more dangerous. Sure they can. And did. OSB was gotten because of this program... remember? Before they got caught in that lie of course. Hell, they even made a best picture nominee trying to trumpet their success. You go from least actionable to not providing anything of substance to making the country more dangerous. Your jump to conclusions mat is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 You go from least actionable to not providing anything of substance to making the country more dangerous. Your jump to conclusions mat is broken. It absolutely did. How does forfeiting more civil liberties and rights do anything OTHER than make this country more dangerous. You're okay with this torture because it was just some Muslims getting food shoved up their ass or left to freeze to death in their cell. One day it might be you. Who knows, maybe the state decides you're a threat to national security. But it can't happen to you, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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