Greed and the NFL

[Best Player Available]

 

 

Incompetent in terms of a franchise having so many losing seasons. Incompetent in terms of actually losing the number one pick in NFL draft to the CFL. Incompetent in terms of losing Jim Kelly to the USFL. Most pro franchise owners want and should make money, but want to win as well. Wilson only made money

There is an old book on the Bills named "Relentless" maybe reading it

Will change your misguided views. ralph wasn't the smartest football guy on the planet.

but today there is still a team in Buffalo. The only reason there is a team is Ralph Wilson jr.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Best Player Available

[Augie]

Its Bush's fault.

Or Obama's fault.... definitely someone else's fault. That's how it works.

[Kirby Jackson]

I'm sorry but this is the ultimate troll post. The worst kind of troll is one that doesn't understand. The games were sold to Toronto to help keep the team in WNY. It was an attempt to expand their market and to generate additional nonshared revenue to offset what other teams were doing. That nonshared revenue drives the cap just as the TV contract does. The players are guaranteed a % of total league revenues. It actually costs him a higher % of his revenue to pay players than what it costs Kraft or Jones. Yet he still kept the team in WNY where it will remain for generations.

 

If you want to complain about the business of sports go for it but we are the ones forking over the money. The market will bear what it will bear as is the case with any business. This is a subject that maybe you'd be better served staying in your lane on instead of trashing the guy that has kept the team in WNY when he could have made more money elsewhere.

[keepthefaith]

Much discussion in recent times concerning greed and the American economy. But exhibit A for pure greed could easily be many of the current owners of NFL franchises. Robert Kraft for example.

 

So Kraft buys the New England franchise for about 400 million and it's now valued at over 2 billion. Nice profit right? Plus the substantial 50 million+ yearly profit he grinds out. But is that anywhere near enough for this guy, who is so often touted by the media for his "charitable" works. Give me a break. He squeezes every penny out of the fans who attend the games. From parking to concessions he charges the families that attend the very most he possibly can, I suppose, of course, because 2 to 3 billion dollars is just not enough for him. So ban fans from bringing in water bottles to the game, then charge 4 dollars for a bottle of your 25 cent water. If the water supply in Boston was suddenly poisoned, and the local 7-11 store started charging 4 bucks for a bottle of water, people would burn down the store. But Kraft is a saint. Who, along with Jerry Jones, would love to see the Bills relocate so as to enhance NFL revenue.

 

But why look all the way to the New England area for egregious examples of greed. How about one Ralph Wilson Jr, hero to many in WNY as well as many on this board. Despite running (into the ground) one of the most dysfunctional franchises in NFL history, he managed to pocket well over one billion dollars in net profit as a reward for his epic mismanagement. His greed knew no bounds. To the community that built him his stadium, payed for it's up keep, spent hundreds of millions to improve, he extended a his middle finger from the grave. Puts the franchise up for the highest bidder, while sneaking in an escape clause in the lease allowing the team to be moved. And having his trust keep giving the low bidding out of towners chance after chance to increase their bid so as to squeeze yet even more money out of this franchise. At least Kraft contributed to the construction/maintenance costs of his stadium, and did not have the unmitigated arrogance to have the taxpayers forego the lucrative naming rights so as to have the stadium named after himself.

 

Contemplate Wilson's greed. He is 90+ years old and a billion dollars to the good yet sacrifices his team's chances to win games by selling two games per year to Toronto; all for just an extra 5 - 10 million dollars. That's pure greed folks, and some day I hope the WNY area will wake up and cease and desist in their hero worship of Wilson. The first thing I would do after this team is sold is to rename the stadium.

 

If people don't like the product or the cost of it, they don't have to buy it.

[klos63]

The trust is doing no such thing. As local candidate Pegula posts the initial highest bid, the trust is soliciting other bids and asking for re submissions so as to drive the price higher. If they were "rigging" the game so the team stays in Buffalo, Pegula would own the team right now. Hey genius, if the sale was rigged to keep the team in Buffalo, please explain to all of us why Wilson insisted on an escape clause in the recent 10 year lease. Explain to us please why an escape clause is necessary when the intent is to rig the game to keep the team in Buffalo.

I can't say for sure, but my guess is that if there were no bidders interested in keeping the team here, they would need an opportunity to leave, else they might not find a buyer. Just a guess.

[LB3]

I'm sorry but this is the ultimate troll post. The worst kind of troll is one that doesn't understand. The games were sold to Toronto to help keep the team in WNY. It was an attempt to expand their market and to generate additional nonshared revenue to offset what other teams were doing. That nonshared revenue drives the cap just as the TV contract does. The players are guaranteed a % of total league revenues. It actually costs him a higher % of his revenue to pay players than what it costs Kraft or Jones. Yet he still kept the team in WNY where it will remain for generations.

 

If you want to complain about the business of sports go for it but we are the ones forking over the money. The market will bear what it will bear as is the case with any business. This is a subject that maybe you'd be better served staying in your lane on instead of trashing the guy that has kept the team in WNY when he could have made more money elsewhere.

 

This is where, in the movies, a slow clap would be started.

[Best Player Available]

I can't say for sure, but my guess is that if there were no bidders interested in keeping the team here, they would need an opportunity to leave, else they might not find a buyer. Just a guess.

i think its in place because IF a new stadium was built the team could move there that year with minimal

Cost. The lease is for the stadium not the buffalo Bills.

[Augie]

I literally bumped into Mr Wilson coming out of the restroom at the Creekside/Creekview restaurant in Williamsville a few years ago. I wanted to anonymously pay for his table (it was a small group), but I hesitated and then he was gone. I know he could have paid for dinner for everyone in WNY that evening with less impact on his wallet than my wallet paying for his small group, but I felt it was the right thing to do and I regret failing to act fast enough to this day.

[klos63]

Much discussion in recent times concerning greed and the American economy. But exhibit A for pure greed could easily be many of the current owners of NFL franchises. Robert Kraft for example.

 

So Kraft buys the New England franchise for about 400 million and it's now valued at over 2 billion. Nice profit right? Plus the substantial 50 million+ yearly profit he grinds out. But is that anywhere near enough for this guy, who is so often touted by the media for his "charitable" works. Give me a break. He squeezes every penny out of the fans who attend the games. From parking to concessions he charges the families that attend the very most he possibly can, I suppose, of course, because 2 to 3 billion dollars is just not enough for him. So ban fans from bringing in water bottles to the game, then charge 4 dollars for a bottle of your 25 cent water. If the water supply in Boston was suddenly poisoned, and the local 7-11 store started charging 4 bucks for a bottle of water, people would burn down the store. But Kraft is a saint. Who, along with Jerry Jones, would love to see the Bills relocate so as to enhance NFL revenue.

 

But why look all the way to the New England area for egregious examples of greed. How about one Ralph Wilson Jr, hero to many in WNY as well as many on this board. Despite running (into the ground) one of the most dysfunctional franchises in NFL history, he managed to pocket well over one billion dollars in net profit as a reward for his epic mismanagement. His greed knew no bounds. To the community that built him his stadium, payed for it's up keep, spent hundreds of millions to improve, he extended a his middle finger from the grave. Puts the franchise up for the highest bidder, while sneaking in an escape clause in the lease allowing the team to be moved. And having his trust keep giving the low bidding out of towners chance after chance to increase their bid so as to squeeze yet even more money out of this franchise. At least Kraft contributed to the construction/maintenance costs of his stadium, and did not have the unmitigated arrogance to have the taxpayers forego the lucrative naming rights so as to have the stadium named after himself.

 

Contemplate Wilson's greed. He is 90+ years old and a billion dollars to the good yet sacrifices his team's chances to win games by selling two games per year to Toronto; all for just an extra 5 - 10 million dollars. That's pure greed folks, and some day I hope the WNY area will wake up and cease and desist in their hero worship of Wilson. The first thing I would do after this team is sold is to rename the stadium.

I don't buy crap at stadiums when I go to games, I also don't complain about it. I know the outrageous prices and deal with it. I can last a couple hours without eating.

To still complain about the economics of sports is really quite ridiculous, I remember the start of baseball free agency back in the 70's, understood the shock to the system raising the costs for fans, but it's 40 years later, quit whining. It's been a fact of sports life for decades now.

Regarding the trust with bids and such, first , you really have no idea what's really going on behind closed doors, there have been so much conflicting information that it is absurd to get fired up over the certain reports you decide to believe.

In the end, and probably in the next couple weeks, Pegula will likely win the bidding, and the Bills will stay put. It really shouldn't matter to you and anyone else what he pays for it and how much profit the Wilson family makes. Whatever you think of Wilson as a owner, businessman or person.... I can't recall anything he has ever done that would be considered illegal or unethical. You can disapprove of his actions, but he has every right to those actions. I've never been a big fan of how he ran the team, however, he made it possible for me to be such a big football fan by keeping the team here my whole life, I'm grateful for that, and the best I can tell is that he did pretty much all he could do legally to sell the team to someone who would keep the team here for quite some time after he was gone.

 

i think its in place because IF a new stadium was built the team could move there that year with minimal

Cost. The lease is for the stadium not the buffalo Bills.

makes more sense , thanks.

[vegas55]

I'm sorry but this is the ultimate troll post. The worst kind of troll is one that doesn't understand. The games were sold to Toronto to help keep the team in WNY. It was an attempt to expand their market and to generate additional nonshared revenue to offset what other teams were doing. That nonshared revenue drives the cap just as the TV contract does. The players are guaranteed a % of total league revenues. It actually costs him a higher % of his revenue to pay players than what it costs Kraft or Jones. Yet he still kept the team in WNY where it will remain for generations.

 

If you want to complain about the business of sports go for it but we are the ones forking over the money. The market will bear what it will bear as is the case with any business. This is a subject that maybe you'd be better served staying in your lane on instead of trashing the guy that has kept the team in WNY when he could have made more money elsewhere.

 

It's interesting on this board when someone has no substantive answer to a post, they characterize the post as trolling. Let's examine what exactly you are saying in your post aside from the trolling characterization. According to your financial expertise, it was "necessary" to move the games to Toronto. But the Bills have stopped the Toronto games, so why exactly was it necessary then but it's no longer necessary. And at the time Ralph sold the games to Toronto, the Bills were making a annual net profit of between 30 - 40 million dollars. The extra money the Toronto games brought it in was NOT the difference between making the Bills very profitable, it simply impacted how much profit Ralph earned ( in addition to the 1 billion+ in franchise appreciation). So if you maintain that it was "necessary" to sell the games to Toronto to keep the team in WNY, when did it become unnecessary to sell games to Toronto, and why?

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

It's interesting on this board when someone has no substantive answer to a post, they characterize the post as trolling. Let's examine what exactly you are saying in your post aside from the trolling characterization. According to your financial expertise, it was "necessary" to move the games to Toronto. But the Bills have stopped the Toronto games, so why exactly was it necessary then but it's no longer necessary. And at the time Ralph sold the games to Toronto, the Bills were making a annual net profit of between 30 - 40 million dollars. The extra money the Toronto games brought it in was NOT the difference between making the Bills very profitable, it simply impacted how much profit Ralph earned ( in addition to the 1 billion+ in franchise appreciation). So if you maintain that it was "necessary" to sell the games to Toronto to keep the team in WNY, when did it become unnecessary to sell games to Toronto, and why?

A few reasons, the new stadium improvements will be able to generate that extra revenue (it was about $8M per year). Their concession revenues will increase as well as the new sponsorship inventory created by the expansion. In addition, it served its purpose in that the Bills received the necessary exposure in that market as evidenced by their Canadian ST base being at it's all time high.

 

Maybe troll was inappropriate, I actually think ignorant fits better.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[Mr. WEO]

I'm sorry but this is the ultimate troll post. The worst kind of troll is one that doesn't understand. The games were sold to Toronto to help keep the team in WNY. It was an attempt to expand their market and to generate additional nonshared revenue to offset what other teams were doing. That nonshared revenue drives the cap just as the TV contract does. The players are guaranteed a % of total league revenues. It actually costs him a higher % of his revenue to pay players than what it costs Kraft or Jones. Yet he still kept the team in WNY where it will remain for generations.

 

If you want to complain about the business of sports go for it but we are the ones forking over the money. The market will bear what it will bear as is the case with any business. This is a subject that maybe you'd be better served staying in your lane on instead of trashing the guy that has kept the team in WNY when he could have made more money elsewhere.

 

I'm not sure how the extra revenue from the Toronto games helped "helped keep the Bills in WNY". I don't see a line that can be drawn. Wilson knew he would pass in the not distant future and that the team would be sold to someone regardless of whether those games were ever played i Toronto. The lease he negotiated before his death had a real impact on the Bills staying, but those games did not. I get the "regionalization" argument, but those games were such a PR disaster on both sides of the border, it's impossible to claim that they caused more Canadians to buy Bills seasons.

 

Also, it has been posted over and over that Wilson "could have moved the team and made more money", but exactly when and where would he have done so? If you review the events that led to each NFL team move (they all involve an unmet demand for a publicly funded stadium), there really isn't a convincing point in history where Ralph would have moved, or, more accurately, jumped ahead of another owner who was about to move.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Mr. WEO

[vegas55]

A few reasons, the new stadium improvements will be able to generate that extra revenue (it was about $8M per year). Their concession revenues will increase as well as the new sponsorship inventory created by the expansion. In addition, it served it purpose in that the Bills received the necessary exposure in that market as evidenced by their Canadian ST base being at it's all time high.

 

Maybe troll was inappropriate, I actually think ignorant fits better.

 

 

 

You mean the improvements that the taxpayers, not Ralph, payed for. And by the way, you don't know, nor does anybody know, that the improvements will generate extra revenue. And not only do you pretend to know that the improvements will generate extra revenue, you somehow compute that it will make up for the 8 million dollars Toronto deal generated. And as for ignorant, if you think that that an extra 8 million Toronto brought in made a difference in keeping this team in Buffalo, well please. But that 8 million must have made a huge difference to multi billionaire Wilson, who sacrificed a competitive advantage for that money that he and his heirs so desperately needed.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I'm not sure how the extra revenue from the Toronto games helped "helped keep the Bills in WNY". I don't see a line that can be drawn. Wilson knew he would pass in the not distant future and that the team would be sold to someone regardless of whether those games were ever played i Toronto. The lease he negotiated before his death had a real impact on the Bills staying, but those games did not. I get the "regionalization" argument, but those games were such a PR disaster on both sides of the border, it's impossible to claim that they caused more Canadians to buy Bills seasons.

 

Also, it has been posted over and over that Wilson "could have moved the team and made more money", but exactly when and where would he have done so? If you review the events that led to each NFL team move (they all involve an unmet demand for a publicly funded stadium), there really isn't a convincing point in history where Ralph would have moved, or, more accurately, jumped ahead of another owner who was about to move.

The revenue was as much a reason as the regionalization with Toronto. I know this to be true. After the CBA that RW voted against he had big concerns about the nonshared revenue driving the cap. It was kind of paranoia and they felt as a franchise they had to do things differently than other teams because they were close to tapped out with the revenue that they could make at RWS. The nonshared revenues haven't climbed at the rate that he feared but that is in part because of the shared revenues expanding so quickly.

 

In terms of moving the team there are markets out there that he could have showed "a little leg" to if he wasn't making progress with the state. San Antonio and LA come to mind. Norfolk Virginia and Louisville have been quietly in pursuit of a major pro sports team for quite sometime.

 

 

 

You mean the improvements that the taxpayers, not Ralph, payed for. And by the way, you don't know, nor does anybody know, that the improvements will generate extra revenue. And not only do you pretend to know that the improvements will generate extra revenue, you somehow compute that it will make up for the 8 million dollars Toronto deal generated. And as for ignorant, if you think that that an extra 8 million Toronto brought in made a difference in keeping this team in Buffalo, well please. But that 8 million must have made a huge difference to multi billionaire Wilson, who sacrificed a competitive advantage for that money that he and his heirs so desperately needed.

I do know that they will because they already have. Do you think that Duffs, Tim Hortons and La Nova are getting that spot for free?!? They have all become or expanded their partnership deal for the rights to sell the product.

 

I don't disagree that Toronto was a mistake on the field but it accomplished the organizations business goals.

[JohnC]

I'm not sure how the extra revenue from the Toronto games helped "helped keep the Bills in WNY". I don't see a line that can be drawn. Wilson knew he would pass in the not distant future and that the team would be sold to someone regardless of whether those games were ever played i Toronto. The lease he negotiated before his death had a real impact on the Bills staying, but those games did not. I get the "regionalization" argument, but those games were such a PR disaster on both sides of the border, it's impossible to claim that they caused more Canadians to buy Bills seasons.

 

Also, it has been posted over and over that Wilson "could have moved the team and made more money", but exactly when and where would he have done so? If you review the events that led to each NFL team move (they all involve an unmet demand for a publicly funded stadium), there really isn't a convincing point in history where Ralph would have moved, or, more accurately, jumped ahead of another owner who was about to move.

 

The Toronto series concept was not a mistake. It was a reasonable attempt to expand the boundaries of the market. Did it expand the Canadian fan base? Somewhat. The failure of those games had a lot to do with the unattractive product on the field. It would have been interesting to see how the Toronto market would have responded if a Kelly/Polian era type winning and entertaining team was showcased there instead of the poor product that they were exposed to.

 

You know what my views are on the departed owner and how he managed this franchise. There is no need to belabor that issue. So you can't say I fall in the category of a devotee. You and I are in accord that as much as many people claim that he could have just as easily moved to another market it made little sense to do so because he was doing very well in the market he very often complained about.

 

The bottom line is that the terms of the lease that he agreed to (as you noted) and the composition of the trust members are critical reasons why the team will probably stay in western NY. So it is appropriate to give him credit for doing the right thing, an act that he was not obligated to do.

Edited September 1, 2014 by JohnC

[vegas55]

The revenue was as much a reason as the regionalization with Toronto. I know this to be true. After the CBA that RW voted against he had big concerns about the nonshared revenue driving the cap. It was kind of paranoia and they felt as a franchise they had to do things differently than other teams because they were close to tapped out with the revenue that they could make at RWS. The nonshared revenues haven't climbed at the rate that he feared but that is in part because of the shared revenues expanding so quickly.

 

In terms of moving the team there are markets out there that he could have showed "a little leg" to if he wasn't making progress with the state. San Antonio and LA come to mind. Norfolk Virginia and Louisville have been quietly in pursuit of a major pro sports team for quite sometime.

 

I do know that they will because they already have. Do you think that Duffs, Tim Hortons and La Nova are getting that spot for free?!? They have all become or expanded their partnership deal for the rights to sell the product.

 

I don't disagree that Toronto was a mistake on the field but it accomplished the organizations business goals.

 

Wow I thought only potential buyers were given access to the Bills financial records. Somehow you received access and determined that the extra revenue generated from a few chicken wing and coffee stands make the Toronto deal no longer financially necessary. You have no idea what the revenue figures are, you have no idea about any extra generated revenue amounts because you really have no access to that kind of info. You are simply guessing and making crap up. Because you had no real answer as to why the Toronto deal was no longer necessary. But my post was ignorant

[Doc]

The revenue was as much a reason as the regionalization with Toronto. I know this to be true. After the CBA that RW voted against he had big concerns about the nonshared revenue driving the cap. It was kind of paranoia and they felt as a franchise they had to do things differently than other teams because they were close to tapped out with the revenue that they could make at RWS. The nonshared revenues haven't climbed at the rate that he feared but that is in part because of the shared revenues expanding so quickly.

Yep. Ralph turned to Toronto after seeing how bad the 2006 CBA really was.

 

In terms of moving the team there are markets out there that he could have showed "a little leg" to if he wasn't making progress with the state. San Antonio and LA come to mind. Norfolk Virginia and Louisville have been quietly in pursuit of a major pro sports team for quite sometime.

As I said before, by the time the NFL was awarding expansion teams to Jax and Carolina (in 1993), the Rich/Ralph was already 20 years old. So there was Jax, Carolina, Baltimore, Houston, and hell even Cleveland, where he could have moved the team.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Wow I thought only potential buyers were given access to the Bills financial records. Somehow you received access and determined that the extra revenue generated from a few chicken wing and coffee stands make the Toronto deal no longer financially necessary. You have no idea what the revenue figures are, you have no idea about any extra generated revenue amounts because you really have no access to that kind of info. You are simply guessing and making crap up. Because you had no real answer as to why the Toronto deal was no longer necessary. But my post was ignorant

I gave you multiple reasons. I have a pretty good sense for the revenue streams in pro sports. I do not know the detail of those deals but I am 100% positive that it is more than zero. The largest sponsorship deals are 7 figures annually. My guess is that particular asset is probably valued at $100K. I am not saying that the sponsorship deal alone offsets the revenue but the extra marketing and concession opportunities are projected to push the Bills revenue to somewhere between $270-$280M. I believe that Forbes had them at $252M in 2013.

[Lurker]

Much discussion

I stopped reading right here...

[JohnC]

I gave you multiple reasons. I have a pretty good sense for the revenue streams in pro sports. I do not know the detail of those deals but I am 100% positive that it is more than zero. The largest sponsorship deals are 7 figures annually. My guess is that particular asset is probably valued at $100K. I am not saying that the sponsorship deal alone offsets the revenue but the extra marketing and concession opportunities are projected to push the Bills revenue to somewhere between $270-$280M. I believe that Forbes had them at $252M in 2013.

 

It will be interesting to see if the new owner sells the naming rights for the current stadium or if he waits another couple years before doing so out of respect to the departed owner? Or if there are plans to build a new facility wait until a new facility or the current facility is updated before selling the naming rights?