Pneumonic Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 So the asterisk must be used fairly across the board, but following the league rules and punishments for multiple infractions should be on a case by case basis?? Is cheating not cheating? All cheating more does is make me a multiple times cheater. In the end, the person who cheated once and the person who cheated twice are still both cheaters. sure they all like to bend the rules. that's not the argumet here. let them all do it and not ignore the worst offenders. Perhaps, we need clarification on the defn of cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Waht if they didn't talk about football. Where in that rule does it mention football talk? This rule is, as NoSAint says, a negotiated agreement between the players and the teams in the CBA, presumedly so the team wouldn't hound the players about football in the off season., not because there is any imaginable advantage to be gained by textign a player about blocking schemes and passing routes. There is no advantage gained here. And what was Manning and his coach's penalty last year for meeting at Saban's and talking about football? Again as I said, it doesn't matter if you like it or not. Those are the rules. And since he's not a first-time offender… As for Manning, was there proof they talked football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 No. All I've done is say that this is hardly cheating. I did state that cheaters should be punished and never did I exclude Bill Belicheck. He was caught once and was punished. If this turns out to be a violation, he'll be punished. What's the problem? He's just the head coach of a rival football team who texted one of his plaers. He's not the !@#$ing leader of al Qaeda. Perspective. That's the only drum I'm beating. I want the Bills to go 19-0 every bit as much as you do. People may not be interpreting "cheating" the same as a "rule violation"... But I think that everyone is using the two words synonymously and that is a whole other debate... I believe that violating the rules in a competitive setting is cheating... I don't believe that by a student not raising their hand to talk (if that's their rule) is cheating... Is cheating not cheating? All cheating more does is make me a multiple times cheater. In the end, the person who cheated once and the person who cheated twice are still both cheaters. Perhaps, we need clarification on the defn of cheat. Lol- was just typing my interpretation of the cheating when you posted that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Again as I said, it doesn't matter if you like it or not. Those are the rules. And since he's not a first-time offender… I will also point out that since this would be (if found to be so) his second rules violation and that should be considered whilst doling out the punishment(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Cheating is cheating- yes... But cheating and learning from it (whether you got caught or not) is different than cheating and continuing to cheat... If these allegations are correct, and he did break the rules again, he (in my eyes) is the worst type of cheater... The one that got caught and continued to violate league rules.... I guess to me he would be a poop head cheater??? I'm really not sure how to define the levels of cheating, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Sure, in an ideal world, there would be no cheating. But, in real life, there is cheating. Especially so at the epitome levels of business, such as the NFL, where the combatants are all competing for just 1 of only 32 jobs in existence. It's good that you are not posting your Patriots asterisk due to jealousy. There's "cheating" all over business for sure and when they get caught they get fined, incarcerated, etc... Sometimes (just like in Belicheats case) he has people cover for him so the real truth doesn't leak and ruin him for good. The cheater has cheated and gotten caught numerous times... he has so many people looking out for him that he doesn't even bat an eye anymore. It's ridiculous really. Dude... do me a favor and don't use the word "combatant" to me to describe an NFL coach. As a 25 yr military man that's served in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can never compare a real combatant to an NFL coach. I understand your "point", but it's not remotely close to the real deal. Rules are put in place for a reason... blatantly disregarding them means that Belicheat can't win without cheating, therefore he makes my case for me. Cheating and then saying "well there's only 32 spots so it's ok to cheat" doesn't hold water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) We are getting somewhere, lol... I completely see what you are saying, and I agree that some rule violations may have a more direct impact on the game, and some don't... But by not treating rule violations equally you open pandora a box of whatever interpretation the commish wants to take... I think that the most fair and objective way to go about things is for the league to treat a rule as a rule as a rule... But what WILL happen- it will have to be seen... Clearly it hasn't even been proven that there was a violation- and honestly, I hope there wasn't one.,. we definitely got somewhere. i dont particularly agree with the stance, but i do get what you were saying - and i wasnt sure which way you were leaning prior. i just cant fathom that being the jumping off point for punishment, personally. if you wanted to say that you take what would be a standard fine for the incident (again, if its a violation - and not even sure what the punishment would be if it is a violation... but for texting i would say 5 figure fine is where it seems to fit), and add a little extra to that for history -- sure thats a discussion to be had if sean payton has some contact at a no contact practice, is he banned for life? in my opinion you are leaning way to hard on a previous punishment and not the current actions being punished. Edited July 15, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 There's "cheating" all over business for sure and when they get caught they get fined, incarcerated, etc... Sometimes (just like in Belicheats case) he has people cover for him so the real truth doesn't leak and ruin him for good. The cheater has cheated and gotten caught numerous times... he has so many people looking out for him that he doesn't even bat an eye anymore. It's ridiculous really. Dude... do me a favor and don't use the word "combatant" to me to describe an NFL coach. As a 25 yr military man that's served in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can never compare a real combatant to an NFL coach. I understand your "point", but it's not remotely close to the real deal. Rules are put in place for a reason... blatantly disregarding them means that Belicheat can't win without cheating, therefore he makes my case for me. Cheating and then saying "well there's only 32 spots so it's ok to cheat" doesn't hold water. Not all cheaters are caught and fined and/or incarcerated though. Yet, they are still cheaters. And once a cheater, always a cheater. Doesn't matter how many more times the cheater, cheats. I understand your dislike for the C word. Just know that it's usage isn't only limited to the military nor was it my intent for it to be construed as such in my post. Apologies if it offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 we definitely got somewhere. i dont particularly agree with the stance, but i do get what you were saying - and i wasnt sure which way you were leaning prior. i just cant fathom that being the jumping off point for punishment, personally. if you wanted to say that you take what would be a standard fine for the incident (again, if its a violation - and not even sure what the punishment would be if it is a violation... but for texting i would say 5 figure fine is where it seems to fit), and add a little extra to that for history -- sure thats a discussion to be had if sean payton has some contact at a no contact practice, is he banned for life? in my opinion you are leaning way to hard on a previous punishment and not the current actions being punished. I can go either way... The penalty that you described I would see fitting, I am suggesting an escalation only because that's the way the league has operated in the past... Personally, I just think that he is dirty- and whatever happens happens, I'm not going to be butt hurt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PO'14 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Check it out! And you wonder why people need regulation. Crooks usually need to be regulated. Belicheat is the poster child for intervention from a governing source (NFL)... Aaron Hernandez from the public criminal side. Oh wait, Belicheat gets the slap on the wrists for his anti-social, win at ALL cost (even moral) nature of doing business. Some will always chaulk it up to "doing business" in a highly competitive society. "Greed is good." Belichick isn't helping. A million young poets, screamin' out their words To a world full of people, just livin' to be heard Future generations ridin' on the highways that we built I hope they have a better understanding Check it out Goin' to work on Monday Check it out Got yourself a family Check it out All utility bills have been paid You can't tell your best buddy that you love him So check it out Where does our time go Check it out Got a brand new house in escrow Check it out Sleepin' with your back to your loved one This is all that we've learned about happiness Check it out Forgot to say hello to my neighbors Check it out Sometimes I question my own behavior Check it out Talkin' about the girls that we've seen on the sly Just to tell our souls we're still the young lions So check it out Gettin' too drunk on Saturdays Check it out Playin' football with the kids on Sundays Check it out Soarin' with the eagles all week long And this is all that we've learned about living This is all that we've learned about living Check it out Check it out Check it out Check it out A million young poets screamin' out their words Maybe someday those words will be heard By future generations ridin' on the highways that we built Maybe they'll have a better understanding Check it out Hope they'll have a better understanding Check it out Maybe they'll have a better understanding Check it out Maybe they'll have a better understanding Check it out Hope they have a better understanding Check it out Check it out Check it out I checked it out... I dont get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Not all cheaters are caught and fined and/or incarcerated though. Yet, they are still cheaters. And once a cheater, always a cheater. Doesn't matter how many more times the cheater, cheats. I understand your dislike for the C word. Just know that it's usage isn't only limited to the military nor was it my intent for it to be construed as such in my post. Apologies if it offended. True, they're not all caught, but when they are they should be dealt with accordingly, hence my postings on this discussion. I fully believe Belicheats cheating *won him SB's, and that to me is a major foul. And, the fact that he continues his ways is even more of a foul. I took no offense to the combatant verbiage, I understand it wasn't meant to be rude or malicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) we'll agree to disagree. I used to average a speeding ticket once every 16 months. After a few years I thought I'd better slow it down some. Oh I still speed but I make an effort to not overdo it. I drive a rural road on the way home to avoid traffic and there is a spot where the road dips and I get to just over 60 in a 45, Often times a cop sits there waiting for speeders. Well, 3 weeks ago I forgot to be cautious at that point and WAMMO. on came the bubble lights.yadda yadda ... the cop came back to me and said you have an excellent driving record so I'll let you off with a warning. the day I wasn't as aware was the day I got caught I suggest investing in the Valentine 1. It will end your speeding woes... Also, if cheating is to gain a competitive advantage, how is texting a player--even about football--giving a coach an advantage over a team not texting their players? Someone tell me what they could have been talking about in February that would make a difference on the field in September. Edited July 15, 2014 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 True, they're not all caught, but when they are they should be dealt with accordingly, hence my postings on this discussion. I fully believe Belicheats cheating *won him SB's, and that to me is a major foul. And, the fact that he continues his ways is even more of a foul. Just so I'm clear .... you only feel as you do because Belicheat was the only one to have been caught cheating (videotaping)? What of the others who also cheated by videotaping but who didn't get caught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I suggest investing in the Valentine 1. It will end your speeding woes... Also, if cheating is to gain a competitive advantage, how is texting a player--even about football--giving a coach an advantage over a team not texting their players? Someone tell me what they could have been talking about in February that would make a difference on the field in September. I'm sure there are reasons for the rule- seems silly to think there are rules that serve no purpose, plus aren't they voted on by the owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) Isn't the point that sweeping this cheating under the rug makes the playing field uneven. One coach follows the rules, and doesn't send his players offseason workout advice (or whatever) One coach says screw the rules, and sends his players offseason workout advice (or whatever) If the rule isn't a "big deal" then it should be disposed of, but until then they should be followed as if every coach is following them, because some do, and following the rules should not be a disadvantage to you. Edited July 15, 2014 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Isn't the point that sweeping this cheating under the rug makes the playing field uneven. One coach follows the rules, and doesn't send his players offseason workout advice (or whatever) One coach says screw the rules, and sends his players offseason workout advice (or whatever) If the rule isn't a "big deal" then it should be disposed of, but until then they should be followed as if every coach is following them, because some do, and following the rules should not be a disadvantage to you. generally speaking, yes i fully agree that if its a rule it should either be enforced as it has a purpose or removed if your not going to enforce the rule. that said, i dont think this qualifies as any type of major infraction and i would put it more in line with the fines seen for playing with an injury report, as opposed to docking draft picks, and suspension. IF he even violated the rule - as weve seen its not clear he did - i think where things are running off the rails a bit are the size of the offense and severity of the punishment. itd probably help the conversation if more people put in what they mean when they say they think he should get penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryCletus Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 generally speaking, yes i fully agree that if its a rule it should either be enforced as it has a purpose or removed if your not going to enforce the rule. that said, i dont think this qualifies as any type of major infraction and i would put it more in line with the fines seen for playing with an injury report, as opposed to docking draft picks, and suspension. IF he even violated the rule - as weve seen its not clear he did - i think where things are running off the rails a bit are the size of the offense and severity of the punishment. itd probably help the conversation if more people put in what they mean when they say they think he should get penalized. As you (I think) previously stated... 5 figure fine up to a one year suspension... The first is probably much more proportionate to the offense (if one was committed) The second (I really can't see happening) if Goodell gets a hard on for his blatant disrespect for league rules According to Goodell, he had considered suspending Belichick for the spygate thing, but felt a max fine and loss of a 1st round draft pick had a longer lasting therefore more effective punishment than a suspension... I do concede that IF recent reports are found to be in violation of league rules, this violation does not seem to be near as big of a deal as spygate, but a rule is a rule, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Just so I'm clear .... you only feel as you do because Belicheat was the only one to have been caught cheating (videotaping)? What of the others who also cheated by videotaping but who didn't get caught? As I've stated before... I have NO evidence that any other coach has cheated (videotaped illegally). Anyone that cheats should be labeled as such. You grabbed a general statement that I made about cheaters and turned that into "coaches" cheating, lol. I guess that's how some people roll to try to make their case. To be EXTREMELY clear... Belicheat cheats, he got caught cheating and then cheated again. That's what he does. Anyone else that does so is a cheater too, but you're trying to defend his cheating by claiming others have cheated when in fact I don't know of any other coaches that have cheated (Tomlinson cheated and he shouda gotten more of a fine). Show me that evidence and I'll label them cheaters as well. Remember though, that doesn't take the label off of Belicheat. And again to be clear... I could care less about these texting allegations, I only care about his videotaping and other infractions of the league rules, esp the ones we'll never know about because of Uncle Goodell destroying the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) As I've stated before... I have NO evidence that any other coach has cheated (videotaped illegally). Anyone that cheats should be labeled as such. You grabbed a general statement that I made about cheaters and turned that into "coaches" cheating, lol. I guess that's how some people roll to try to make their case. To be EXTREMELY clear... Belicheat cheats, he got caught cheating and then cheated again. That's what he does. Anyone else that does so is a cheater too, but you're trying to defend his cheating by claiming others have cheated when in fact I don't know of any other coaches that have cheated (Tomlinson cheated and he shouda gotten more of a fine). Show me that evidence and I'll label them cheaters as well. Remember though, that doesn't take the label off of Belicheat. And again to be clear... I could care less about these texting allegations, I only care about his videotaping and other infractions of the league rules, esp the ones we'll never know about because of Uncle Goodell destroying the evidence. The league brought to the fore the issues of videotaping, which ended up in the spygate fiasco, by issuing a memo to all teams warning them to stop videotaping. There are countless accounts fo teams videotaping all the way to the dawn of video tape including a reference to some things that Jimmy Jonson made on the subject which I posted on page 3 of this thread. Edited July 15, 2014 by Pneumonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The league brought to the fore the issues of videotaping, which ended up in the spygate fiasco, by issuing a memo to all teams warning them to stop videotaping. There are countless accounts fo teams videotaping all the way to the dawn of video tape including a reference to some things that Jimmy Jonson made on the subject which I posted on page 3 of this thread. Keep on defending the cheater... all good man. Like I said... you keep talking about ALL of these other cheaters, but yet where are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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